Is there any coming back from this stupidity?

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

Leave her free for men who are happy to lead

Or I’d suggest just having the expectation that you as the man will do the leading in the early stages. In my experience if you just set your expectations to lead early, set up and plan the first meet, then, if things go well, set up and plan the next couple of dates, things will even put in time. Also having the expectation that you’ll pay is good, although that will ultimately depend a bit on her as well. 95% of first contact attempts with online dating are done by men. It is what it is. Fighting reality will get you nowhere. 

[uncanny]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Or I’d suggest just having the expectation that you as the man will do the leading in the early stages. In my experience if you just set your expectations to lead early, set up and plan the first meet, then, if things go well, set up and plan the next couple of dates, things will even put in time. Also having the expectation that you’ll pay is good, although that will ultimately depend a bit on her as well. 95% of first contact attempts with online dating are done by men. It is what it is. Fighting reality will get you nowhere. 

I agree, but as you said it depends on the person. I don't want to be with someone that expects me to pay. You got a job you can pay for your s*** yourself. Equality after all isn't it? 

[ExpatInItaly]

You seem really bitter, OP. 

It might be best to take a break from dating altogether while you work on this. It's already screwing things up for you. 

[uncanny]

5 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

You seem really bitter, OP. 

It might be best to take a break from dating altogether while you work on this. It's already screwing things up for you. 

I'm not. I've had great dates in the past. I just don't have to pay for someone else's stuff. Everyone is free to decide how far they go 

[ExpatInItaly]

1 minute ago, uncanny said:

I'm not. I've had great dates in the past. I just don't have to pay for someone else's stuff. Everyone is free to decide how far they go 

It's not just about this one comment.

It's the tone of this entire thread. You come across as very jaded and afraid and upset at women in general. 

 

[uncanny]

16 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

It's not just about this one comment.

It's the tone of this entire thread. You come across as very jaded and afraid and upset at women in general. 

 

Just like women who have had bad experiences with men are. We're shaped by our experiences after all

[Acacia98]

14 minutes ago, uncanny said:

Just like women who have had bad experiences with men are. We're shaped by our experiences after all

This is true.

But whether one is male or female, if their bad experiences make them approach dating/relationships with a defensive mindset and the expectation that they WILL be hurt again, then they should take a break from dating and relationships and take the time to heal. Ideally, one should date when one understands how to increase their chances of meeting the right person and has the ability to accept and move on from rejection in a healthy fashion.

[ExpatInItaly]

1 hour ago, uncanny said:

Just like women who have had bad experiences with men are. We're shaped by our experiences after all

Yes, exactly. Which is why I suggest taking a breather from dating until you're not approaching it with your proverbial dukes up. 

To me, it's not about gender. It's about someone simply recognizing when they are not in the healthiest place to be dating. 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, uncanny said:

Just like women who have had bad experiences with men are. We're shaped by our experiences after all

Indeed.  And just like the men who are carrying baggage from bad experiences, women who have that baggage will also sabotage themselves. 

Those who have too many bad experiences need to figure out why.  First question should always be to ask if they are giving the best of themselves. Having a positive outlook is super important for success.   If the answer to that is yes, then have a look at the common denominators in the relationships went bad and see what changes can be made.

At this point, it's clear that your attitude is a problem.  If the woman you are interested in does have a good date with you, are you going to blow it by refusing to pay for her?   I completely agree that dating can be terribly expensive for a guy, so keep the early dates very low key.  Have a coffee/tea/milkshake and share two different little cakes/pastries.  I'd also expect that the woman would be offering to take turns paying/go dutch by the time you're at about the third date...but also with considerations for actual earning capacity.  

You speak of equality, but unless you and the woman are doing the same job and have the same qualifications and neither of you have taken time off to raise a baby, you're unlikely to be earning the same.  If you work in customer service and she's a manager, it's reasonable to expect her to finance more of the dates.  Likewise, if you're a lawyer and she's a child care worker, you'll pay a higher percentage.  Age can make a difference too:  My daughter met her boyfriend when she was in the first year of her profession - but he was in about his 4th year of a different profession and earning roughly double what she did, so their dates consisted of doing things like he pays for dinner and she buys the drinks.  This is generally considered to be fair

 

[uncanny]

29 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Indeed.  And just like the men who are carrying baggage from bad experiences, women who have that baggage will also sabotage themselves. 

Those who have too many bad experiences need to figure out why.  First question should always be to ask if they are giving the best of themselves. Having a positive outlook is super important for success.   If the answer to that is yes, then have a look at the common denominators in the relationships went bad and see what changes can be made.

At this point, it's clear that your attitude is a problem.  If the woman you are interested in does have a good date with you, are you going to blow it by refusing to pay for her?   I completely agree that dating can be terribly expensive for a guy, so keep the early dates very low key.  Have a coffee/tea/milkshake and share two different little cakes/pastries.  I'd also expect that the woman would be offering to take turns paying/go dutch by the time you're at about the third date...but also with considerations for actual earning capacity.  

You speak of equality, but unless you and the woman are doing the same job and have the same qualifications and neither of you have taken time off to raise a baby, you're unlikely to be earning the same.  If you work in customer service and she's a manager, it's reasonable to expect her to finance more of the dates.  Likewise, if you're a lawyer and she's a child care worker, you'll pay a higher percentage.  Age can make a difference too:  My daughter met her boyfriend when she was in the first year of her profession - but he was in about his 4th year of a different profession and earning roughly double what she did, so their dates consisted of doing things like he pays for dinner and she buys the drinks.  This is generally considered to be fair

 

Fair point. Considering what she earns she should pay for everything. But, here's the thing. I don't agree she should. It's about equality. She has a well paid professional job. Why should she pay for me?

No, I don't blow up anything. If someone gets upset because I don't offer to pay then that's on them. I'm not gonna change who I am. That's like me expecting the woman to pay. Just cause it's socially expected one side should pay doesn't make it acceptable. 

[ExpatInItaly]

When is your date with her, OP?

[uncanny]

21 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

When is your date with her, OP?

In 24hs (if she doesn't cancel)

😮‍💨

Edited March 1, 2024 by uncanny

[basil67]

2 hours ago, uncanny said:

Fair point. Considering what she earns she should pay for everything. But, here's the thing. I don't agree she should. It's about equality. She has a well paid professional job. Why should she pay for me?

No, I don't blow up anything. If someone gets upset because I don't offer to pay then that's on them. I'm not gonna change who I am. That's like me expecting the woman to pay. Just cause it's socially expected one side should pay doesn't make it acceptable. 

Good luck with singledom

[uncanny]

19 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Good luck with singledom

Yes, cause everyone is the same and has the same expectations 

[FredEire]

I somewhat agree that in today's day and age the man shouldn't be expected to pay for everything. I'll always offer to buy the first drink but I'm pleased when a girl offers to get the next one. If she expects me to be getting her drinks all night it'll lower my interest in seeing her again.

However, is this just another reason you're finding to potentially write her off? She's not going to be a perfect person, if you want to find problems on your date, you'll find them.

I agree that you should either go with an open mind and give her a fair chance, or cancel and decide to work on your anger and mistrust issues.

[uncanny]

Not sure what to do as she doesn't seem that excited about the date. Even asked what I had in mind. She'd said she'd be somewhere but would be free that evening when I asked her out, and when I set a time she replied I'll be there anyway.

How do you even respond to this?

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, uncanny said:

Not sure what to do as she doesn't seem that excited about the date. Even asked what I had in mind. She'd said she'd be somewhere but would be free that evening when I asked her out, and when I set a time she replied I'll be there anyway.

How do you even respond to this?

Um... all this seems fairly normal. It's a first date.

Are you expecting her to be doing backflips? Don't create a problem where there isn't one. Just meet and see how it goes.

[Wiseman2]

Have you actually been able to set up a mutually convenient time date place yet and confirm it? What does she mean by "she'll be there anyway"?  Are you meeting in a bar? 

[uncanny]

Just now, Wiseman2 said:

Have you actually been able to set up a mutually convenient time date place yet and confirm it? What does she mean by "she'll be there anyway"?  Are you meeting in a bar? 

Good question. I don't know. I read it as showing low interest and trying to make me take the hint. I suggested a bar near the area, yes

[Alpacalia]

Why not say to her that you're looking forward to the date and give her a time and place to meet. Keep it brief and casual. If she asks for more details, just say that you have a fun evening planned and you can tell her more when you see her.

Keep it light and easy, and don't put too much pressure on her to be excited. You want her to feel comfortable and confident about going on the date with you. If she still doesn't seem that excited, it could just be her personality and it doesn't necessarily mean she's not interested.

Just go into the date with an open mind and enjoy getting to know her. 

[uncanny]

You've been great guys. Trying to take all the advice to heart but damn it if this is not easy

[FredEire]

5 minutes ago, uncanny said:

Good question. I don't know. I read it as showing low interest and trying to make me take the hint. I suggested a bar near the area, yes

No, low interest would be saying "sorry something came up" and not suggesting an alternative, or ghosting you.

What's really going on is you're nervous about the date. Just focus on that and assume she is interested since she's agreed to meet.

[Alpacalia]

3 minutes ago, uncanny said:

You've been great guys. Trying to take all the advice to heart but damn it if this is not easy

Try not to put so much pressure on yourself. Just relax and be yourself on the date. If it's meant to be, things will flow naturally. And if it's not, then at least you had a good time and you can move on to someone who is a better match for you. 

[FredEire]

25 minutes ago, uncanny said:

You've been great guys. Trying to take all the advice to heart but damn it if this is not easy

.

Edited March 1, 2024 by FredEire

[FredEire]

25 minutes ago, uncanny said:

You've been great guys. Trying to take all the advice to heart but damn it if this is not easy

Yeah I genuinely wish you the best.

One thing that's important I think is to be vulnerable. It's much easier to do sour grapes and say "forget this girl, she's a terrible person and I didn't like her anyway" than, "I'm really scared and want to push this girl away because I'm afraid she'll get close to me".

Try to act through the second one, as it's closer to the truth. You will come across as much more genuine and allow her to engage more with your true self.