profile of a wimp - part 3

[trickynj99]

well, here i go again. ..i've been posting for a bit about my issue with a marriage that has been troubled since about march..wife loves me(ahem), but not "in love" she uses some pretty tough words about feeling nothing for me and about how she doesnt know what she wants but knows she doesnt want this...and the way she spits out the word "this" is tough to take..the problem stems from me taking her for granted and her unwillingness over the years to let me know i wasnt getting the job done for her..seems no matter what i try she is just totally completely stuck in one position (ie her life sucks, loveless/sexless marraige/blah blah)

 

we also have an 11 and 8 yr old..beautiful kids... i have been thinking about (probably only fantasizing) about calling what a friend (male/no affairs here)calls her bluff and taking the short walk out to the local motel for a while..3 times now i threatened and i really think because of the kids, and my spiritual beliefs i do not want to quit on our marriage..

 

i recently bought the book Five Love Languages and read it over the weekend.... its interesting because i feel very validated that my thinking over the summer was to be the best person i can be, to do loving things and hope to rekindle our marriage seems to be very inline with the book...that plan failed and i have recently been quite down about it and really focused on moving out ..of course i'm a total fricking wimp so i dont do it and i just stew...

 

what i learned from this book is that i was missing a key part of the plan and that was to make sure she was getting the message.... i beleive my wife's "love language" is words of affirmation, with some gift giving/acts of service on the side...my actions were almost 100% on the acts of service so i plan to honestly complement the hell of her (hehe) and see if that starts a little bit of thaw...

 

this has been the toughest yr of my life(42yrold) by far but i am going to keep an positive attitude as best i can and see what happens.

 

One question i;m thinking about is whether to let her know i have read this book. i wonder if that would help or hurt, i;m thinking at first i don't need to get cute, just do it and see if there is any response.

 

wish me luck

[bkz]

Im glad to here you havent moved out yet and I sure hope you can hang in there and make things work. Far as the book goes....

Id make use of it on your own first and see how she responds, this is what I did and it worked great for us. My wifes love language is words of affirmation also and her secondary is quality time. I started out telling her how much I appritiated the way she handle the kids, how good she was at taking care of our family as a wife and mother, how pretty she was ect... just small things to start with and only every other day or so at first, not to come on too strong. Then one day (after about a week or so) I told her what a great job she did handling a real tough situation with one of our kids, that I thought she had been really strong and understanding in her dealings with them and how much I appritiated her for it. She smiled (BIG SMILE:D ), gave me a hug and kiss on the cheek and said thank you. Thats when I new that I was speaking her love language and her tank was being filled, it felt awsome!!! Ive since given her the book and shes now reading it. It really is a great tool not just for marriage but for dealing with children and other relationships as well.

[trickynj99]

thnx bkz

 

i think there is so many complicating things going on in all our relationships that its hard to cut thru it all.. i was really starting to think that there was nothing more i could do... i'm totally aware that she needs to want to reconnect with our marraige so i had been trying to be the BEST husband possible and it wasnt until i read that book that it hit me that i'm pressing all the wrong buttons...over and over and over...so we'll see..not expecting magic potion but given that we are still together through all this i'm hoping i've found at least a much better way to try get our marriage back on track

 

btw- this should have been sooooooo obvious...where my family is totally non-critical and supportive to a fault...her mom is a narcissist of the highest order and hasnt said anything nice to her daughter since i can remember

[Mz. Pixie]

BINGO!!!! I'm proud of you. You're not being wimpy IMO. You're trying to save your marriage.

 

My mom was exactly like your wife's mom, but thankfully she's gone now. I still have a hard time not replaying the tapes of the things that she's said to me in my head over and over.

 

It's going to take a long time to see progress in this area Tricky. Just remember, your wife didn't feel neglected quickly and your solution will not work quickly either. She'll need to see some slow, steady progress on your part. Don't give up. Your kids are worth it.

[alphamale]

BINGO!!!! I'm proud of you. You're not being wimpy IMO.

Yours is a typical female point of view, MZ PIXIE....from a man's POV he is being wimpy. See what a difference gender makes?!

[Mz. Pixie]

Alpha-

 

You just saw wimp and had to respond, didn't you????

 

Perhaps he is admitting he made some mistakes and he'd like to rectify them. That DOES happen you know.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Yours is a typical female point of view, MZ PIXIE....from a man's POV he is being wimpy. See what a difference gender makes?!

 

Alpha does have a point somewhere there. I think the trick is to integrate firmness and strength with kindness and a genuine willingness to solve the issues that bother her. She needs to feel affection from you, but she needs to respect you too.

 

Brainstorming time. I don't have marriage experience, but I'm thinking aloud based on relationship experience. I think you can't let things stagger on like this. In your shoes, my first instinct would be to bring things to a head. Here's what you could tell her:

 

She has faffed enough, you're getting frustrated with this, now is the time for action. Can she pull herself together enough for this? You're willing to work through issues - is she? If not, you'll have to take some time out.

 

Be strong and firm but kind. Make it clear that your first choice is to save the relationship, but you cannot go on forever in limbo. Be prepared to leave if necessary. To "call her bluff" as your friend says.

 

Oh, and if she starts talking issues, be willing to listen but have some of your own to throw on the table too. This will remind her that it's not just perfect her having to put up with vile you.

 

Brainstorm over. Feel free to accept/reject as you find this useful.

[alphamale]

She needs to feel affection from you, but she needs to respect you too.

The above stmt is prose to my ears, RR.... if a woman does not respect her man, for whatever reason(s), then he is in deep doo-doo

[trickynj99]

Thanks for all the feedback...one of the things about this forum is it makes me feel less alone in all this..

 

i thought the "wimp" line would get some chatter...hehe

 

my wife does respect me. she knows i would do ANYTHING for her and the kids and in her mind, that is one of the things keeping her in the game.. that being said...i've called the bluff now 3 times, and then didnt follow through...each time i've said that i saw no alternative but to walk...she has talked me down from that so i'm losing credibility there...i think its perfectly reasonable to be saying that's it IM OUTTA HERE!!!! but what about the kids???? this is my vicious circle..and let me be clear...i want to stay with my wife too...if i left i would be hoping that she "sees the light" and wants me back...

 

i really really liked the 5 love languages book tho. it feels like a godsend to me right now and i understand we still may not make it through all this but i feel like i have a template to work on....if i can get her to have some hope and feelings again, then any pushing on my part has a much better chance of being accepted..before i read this book i was soooooo down...btw thnx lady jayne if you are reading this i got the idea to read it from your posts on other threads about this whole I love you but i'm not in love with you epidemic

 

if i took romeo's advice, that is a one way ticket out the door and i'm not ready for that yet

 

so even tho i feel like a wimp, my decision is to stay and fight and try to fill up that love tank...if that doesnt work, then i will at least be able to say that i did everything i could to try to make our marriage work and i can't control the other person in that marriage..

 

whew

[ReluctantRomeo]

The above stmt is prose to my ears, RR.... if a woman does not respect her man, for whatever reason(s), then he is in deep doo-doo

 

Agreed. And guys often fail to grasp this. Ending up as her puppydog, not her lover.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Thanks for all the feedback...one of the things about this forum is it makes me feel less alone in all this..

 

This is our pleasure. And talking here will give you a chance to behave more rationally and calmly IRL.

 

my wife does respect me. she knows i would do ANYTHING for her and the kids and in her mind, that is one of the things keeping her in the game..

 

That's good to hear. But IMO it's not the same as respect. This is her knowing you have affection for her.

 

 

that being said...i've called the bluff now 3 times, and then didnt follow through...each time i've said that i saw no alternative but to walk...she has talked me down from that

 

This I didn't understand. But I'm guessing since you have made no concrete progress that she talked you down like a child with a temper tantrum, rather than sorting things out with you like an adult. The price of staying should be that you work on the issues together, not that she can talk you in or out of anything.

 

 

i really really liked the 5 love languages book tho. it feels like a godsend to me right now

 

It is. Such a simple concept, yet really improves relationships. More people should know about this.

 

Why don't you read or do things like this together with your wife? Why aren't you working *together* on the marriage?

 

 

if i took romeo's advice, that is a one way ticket out the door and i'm not ready for that yet

 

It never has been for me. Women like a man who is strong and takes initiative. Especially when that initiative is the first step in putting a relationship back together. What they hate is passive and avoiding the issues.

 

 

if that doesnt work, then i will at least be able to say that i did everything i could to try to make our marriage work and i can't control the other person in that marriage..

 

I'm a bit worried about some of your methods, but I admire your willingness to change and grow. I really hope your wife realises how lucky she is - many men just won't.

[lindya]

I'm a bit worried about some of your methods, but I admire your willingness to change and grow. I really hope your wife realises how lucky she is

 

I hope so too, and I'd second the remarks about improvement on the marriage being something that both of you should be working on. What's your wife doing to improve matters? Complaining doesn't count...unless she's got some concrete idea as to how things could be put right.

 

Reading your post, I get this vision of a man attaching jump leads to a car that won't start, fiddling about under the bonnet and poring over the owner's manual whilst his wife sits in the passenger seat doing her nails and whining about the fact that she's going to be late.

 

I don't think you should let her get too comfy in that passenger seat. At some point your limits are going to be reached. You'll get thoroughly sick and tired of being the one who's making all the effort here....and when you do reach that point, what will happen? Do you know what the limits to your own tolerance are? If you don't, then neither does she...and she might well keep let you carry on doing all the relationship improvement work here until you reach those limits - by which time, it will probably be too late for her to save the relationship.

[trickynj99]

ok here's the update...we talked for hours last nite and decided to separate...i have tried soooooooo hard to work with her to rebuild our marriage but she is totally unwilling to do ANYTHING to reconnect, so i told her last nite, i give up, she wins...since i work - i get to leave

 

unlike our other "decisions" we are both in agreement and clearly communicated our decisions....she says she needs to do this and i agree, i can't live in this limbo anymore...

 

we have 2 kids 11 and 8 yrs old. the only thing we didnt decide is when...to be clear both my wife and i are very gentle caring people and don't want to hurt our kids, she thinks we should wait till after the holidays , i am not so sure..

 

the other thing i want to understand better is how to best set ground rules for a separation..i've seen lots of posts about NO CONTACT..obviously thats not doable with kids in the picture but what is that really and do people think thats helpful in this type of situation..

 

since my wife is saying she needs to be alone and i've basically been alone for years i'm happy to say that we can't talk unless its related to specific things like paying bills or taking care of the kids..i don't want her feeling i'm supporting her in any way...is that the right way to do it??? also is it best to put a time frame around this? my guess is not..

 

i feel like this is all NOT REAL and i know one day i'm gonna get in my car and drive out of there to where/?? a hotel? motel? friends house? yikes..its all very sad and scary..

 

final thought...and this says alot IMHO, this morning i woke up sad, hurt, empty BUT ALSO RELIEVED>.....i've seen other posts about how brutal this might be, but at least i am moving in some direction. i am a changed, better person and i hope that whether we somehow reconcile or whether i move on that whatever relationship i have is going to be better(just keep saying that!)

[ReluctantRomeo]

I'm sorry to hear this. Make sure you're with friends and have plenty of support. Maybe even some personal counselling?

 

Try to let her do the chasing and contacting for the time being. Take time to sort your own head and heart out.

 

Sorry again, man. I think it's a positive step in a bizarre kind of way. But I understand it's not easy.

[seachange]

Hi tricky. So sorry for your situation.

 

btw- this should have been sooooooo obvious...where my family is totally non-critical and supportive to a fault...her mom is a narcissist of the highest order and hasnt said anything nice to her daughter since i can remember

 

This is interesting to me - I don't know how long your wife has been feeling distant and dissatisfied with your marriage, but I wonder - has she been to therapy about her mom? Thing is, after reading this I couldn't help but wonder whether her mom's narcissistic personality disorder didn't merely create a strong need for affirmative words...I'm definitely no expert on this, but it seems that people who have to deal with narcissistic loved ones may sometimes become accustomed to that challenging role in a relationship - so much so that it may be difficult for her to appreciate your emotional generosity properly, and in fact, she may either instinctively mistrust it, or she may be so used to a emotional rollercoaster-type lifestyle that your consistent gentleness isn't stimulating enough for her. I don't know. It sounds to me like she's got a lot of therapy work she might need to do.

[trickynj99]

seachange

 

bingo

 

unfortunately. my own weaknesses and fears compelled me to retreat over the years even though i felt she was slowly withdrawing.. i blame myself for this but i also know if she had come to me earlier to let me know how truly bad she doing i would have stepped up..i fooled myself into thinking one day we'd have a big conversation, hop in the sack and get back to being happy

 

as far as therapy, my wife has now seen 3 therapists...EVERY ONE has said that she had to deal with her relationship with mom and EVERY TIME my wife had a simple respnse..ie quitting therapy. intellectually i'm understand what's going on,but as i said, as easy i find it to spill guts on this board, person to person i have major anxiety and communications issues that hurt my ability to express what i'm really feeling and every time she quit i ended up letting her get away with it..she really needs to deal with those issues!!!!! the consequence of our failure to communicate is now our family gets hurt,and her mom will probably be happy

 

i can sum up her mom this way,,,my wife as a teenager suffered from anorexia..(hint) , as the 95lb teenager is being rushed to the hospital when dad finally intervenes because she can't get out of bed by herself, mom screams out the door

DONT DO THIS TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....that's my wife's mom in a nutshell..so my wife grows up as a pleaser...she lives to satisfy everybody elses needs, no one outside my inner family and you all have any clue this is going on.

 

RR- thanks man i am trying

[ReluctantRomeo]

RR- thanks man i am trying

 

My pleasure. I'm hoping this works out for you.

 

One tip for pleasers with narcissistic mothers - you need to get them to be assertive about their own needs. They really don't know them half the time. Asking them lots of questions is a good way of getting this.

[Mz. Pixie]

Tricky,

 

My mom was a full blown narcassist. My therapist is the one who filled me in on that and I was in a on line support group for grown daughters of mothers with BPD- narcassism mostly for four years and learned alot.

 

We DON'T know our needs. Mainly all that we know is we've tried to please everyone all of our lives- we were defined by trying to get our mother's approval- which was unattainable.

 

I'm not sure you can ever really get over your mother not loving you like she should have. Mine sacrificed me up for everything.

 

When I was in the hospital pregnant with my second child and I was very ill?? She made THAT about her.

 

Her dying was the best thing that ever happened to me.

 

You do not want to confront that your mom is never going to change. Many people suffer from terrible emotional, physical and mental abuse inflicted by the BPD parent. Your wife terribly needs therapy!!! It could be that there is something so terrifying to her that she's unable to face it right now.

 

I'm sorry for you and I'm sorry for your wife

[trickynj99]

thnx pixie

 

its a scary thought that perhaps my own happiness is being sacrificed at the altar of that b*$ch...pretty dramatic prose!!! hehe

 

i even got a book on narcissist families, read it..circled some parts and tried to broach the subject but my wife freaked out that i was BLAMING HER FOR OUR TROUBLES ..when i urge her to try therapy again even if its only her, she freaks at that too...this is how painful her fear of dealing with her mom is

 

but thats one of the central themes..it affects our kids too..my wife can't express to them clearly what she wants from them..she just knows when she isnt getting it...again...i passively enabled all this by always jumping in and saving the day.

 

i fear i am in for some crazy times...

[Walk]

First off, I want to say I'm sorry you're going through this. It's a difficult situation, and there's a lot of suffering.

 

I do want to state though, I was a little in the position your wife is in now. From what I can tell from your post. I spent years trying to get my husband to understand that I was getting what I needed from the relationship. Then when I had finally had enough, distanced myself emotionally, then he wanted to change and be whatever he thought I wanted him to be. He still didn't listen to what I was saying, or didn't understand. Probably just didn't understand.

 

I had no desire to try to work on our relationship after that. For one, he was being clingy, needy and moping all the time. It was disgusting. I was pissed as hell at him that for years he didn't do those things that you were talking about. Saying I did a good job, or telling me I was pretty, or that I was great at something. And after I put up with it for years, and I'd had enough, then suddenly it's my fault that I wanted the divorce? Because all of a sudden he was willing to work on the marriage?? right......

 

I had so much pent up anger and aggression by the time I'd gotten to the point of wanting to call it quits, and telling him I wasn't "in-love" with him anymore.

 

The only reason I would've stayed is if he'd had a MAJOR epiphony on how his actions affected me. I'm the giver in the relationship, he was the taker. And I was really tired of being taken for granted.

 

So, for one, keep your testicals. Don't be needy, clingy or sulking. Do express you love her and want her to be happy. Give her space, but supportive. Why don't both of you go to councilling? And hold off on attacking her on the mother causing problems until after you can regain her love. Don't even let the councelor attack her on that. You backed yourself into a tight corner. I'm sorry you are going through this. Its a horrible experience. I hope you and your wife can find common ground and make your marriage work.

 

That's my 2 cents.

[bkz]

So, for one, keep your testicals. Don't be needy, clingy or sulking. Do express you love her and want her to be happy. Give her space, but supportive. Why don't both of you go to councilling? And hold off on attacking her on the mother causing problems until after you can regain her love. Don't even let the councelor attack her on that. You backed yourself into a tight corner. I'm sorry you are going through this. Its a horrible experience. I hope you and your wife can find common ground and make your marriage work.

 

That's my 2 cents.

 

When I did get my wife into councelling its because both of us were going for our marriage, she would never have gone on her own cause she feels nothings wrong with her its everyone else. Once there the phsycologice imidiatley noticed things with my wife that werent right. Matter a fact thats what she concentrated on almost soley witch eventually made my wife feel attact and if I hadnt told the councellor to back off I think my marriage would be over. I agree if you can get her to go with you then regain her trust/love, it'll be much easyer for her to get help with her problems later with your support. Im hopeing that'll happen with us eventually.

[Walk]

Do you think you can get her to try counseling again, with the understanding that it won't be an attack session of her or her childhood?

 

I get so mad at marriage counselors. When I went to marrige counseling with my exH (prior to divorce) the counselor attacked my ex for his upbringing and narcissitic father. I also had to jump in and stand up for the ex, even though there was some sick part of me that enjoyed hearing the counselor blame the ex for all our problems.

 

It's up to you though to keep the counselor on task. This isn't about her childhood, you don't have the time to invest in solving her entire life right now. What you have to do is repair the marriage enough to stop it from sinking completely.

 

Do you think you could get her to agree to go again? But research who you're going to go to. Set the ground rules with the counselor about what you want to accomplish, and how. Ask his opinon, and suggestions, and come up with a workable solution. But only you know the inner workings of your relationship. An outsider is going to miss things that you will notice, or think other things are of greater importance then either of you do.

 

I guess I see it as, say your in college and the professor is teaching as though everyone in the class is going to fail and not lecturing on relevant material. You can sit there and think "well, he's the teacher he knows what he's doing." Or, you can make him do his job, ask questions, challenge his actions, stand up and demand that you are taught the material needed to pass the class. Same as with the counselors.

 

That's my thought, from hindsight. Instead of challenging our counselor, we simply decided it wasn't working and just never went back. Like I said, we're divorced now.

[ReluctantRomeo]

i even got a book on narcissist families, read it..circled some parts and tried to broach the subject but my wife freaked out that i was BLAMING HER FOR OUR TROUBLES

 

Yup. You're gonna be way better in the initial phases tackling specific issues than going for the overall diagnosis. And listening will be better than trying to fix her.

 

The overall picture will help *you* though. Remember the profile of a pleaser with a narcissistic parent: pressure and needs are 2 key drivers. The pressure to be perfect and match up to unrealistic expectations. The inability to understand, express and therefore meet one's own needs.

 

A typical pattern is that the pleaser works and works and works for someone, expecting a big return eventually. Then one day, when the expected return fails to materialise, the pleaser rebels.

 

My gut feeling is that as long as she is still rebelling, you're in with a chance. It's once she withdraws that it becomes difficult.

[trickynj99]

wow !! all this feedback..its all great

 

RR- your analysis is 100% spot on. PERFECTION is the word, you should see how PERFECT our house is, and how PERFECT our girls appear to the world and how UPSET my wife gets when one of our kids does something NOT PERFECT in school..i have known this all along, but still love her and see her inner strength

that she doesnt see...thats part of whats so painful for me

and.....

unfortunately i think she's more on the withdraw phase. i'm not living in a fantasy world...I DID NOT GET THE JOB DONE ...pure and simple...so my view is that I OWE her and my family every chance...even if that means leaving on her terms...what makes it so tricky (get it) is that i am very realistic about the way this is happening and i have spent the better part of 15 yrs trying to fulfill my wifes needs or more specifically what i THOUGHT my wife's needs were, as my wife communicated them to me..so in a way i'm just doing what i've always done(does that make sense)....in the end tho, i need to know for myself that i did my best and learned from my mistakes, then no matter how down i get i know it was out of my control

 

walk - i hear what you are saying, but if i had a nickel for everytime i said to my wife "Are you happy", or "i don't know how to make you happy, what should i do" i'd easily have 5 or 6 dollars...all kidding aside i'm being honest here and not trying to make myself out to be the good guy, BUT i specifically ASKED HER MANY MANY TIMES why she seemed so unhappy, she went to therapy on 2 occassions to try to work things out and quit before we went together...

 

what i did wrong was i took her non-answer and lived with it, i enabled her behaviour and now we are heading for the end... so i'm home with kids who have no clue about this..since we agreed to separate now she is being very nice and kind, but at the same time making comments about buying a new xmas tree like everything is going to be allright..

 

and one more thing....i'm not moping around!! i'm not happy thats for sure, but since this all started this spring i have been very careful to not push her away by being needy or clinging...i listened to the therapist, read some books,

i'm very focused on being positive and helpful in the house

all this posting started by recently was when i started getting frustrated that it was not working...and it helps to blow it off here to you guys that way i dont blow it off to her and say something i regret.

 

YOU GUYS ARE ALL GREAT FOR LISTENING AND CARING I HOPE I CAN REPAY THE FAVOR SOMEDAY

[Mz. Pixie]

A typical pattern is that the pleaser works and works and works for someone, expecting a big return eventually. Then one day, when the expected return fails to materialise, the pleaser rebels.

 

 

OMG, RR. You nailed it on the head there. How I wish my exhusband could read that. He still doesn't understand.......

 

Tricky, something else that popped in my head last night. All of my life my mother had been so selfish- thinking only of herself. She never put me first in my whole life. Then, what did I do? I married a man who was only concerned with himself most of the time. Just like my mom, although he wasn't mentally ill or abusive. I never tied that in with how my mom treated me until my pastor caught it in our first counseling session. He did the worst thing he could have ever done, never put me first.

 

Also- my mom always talked a good game. "I love you" "You're my world" and such like that, but her actions never reflected those words. So, to me, talk became really cheap. My exhusband?? He always said the words, but yet he didn't stay at home with me and the kids, and he put everything in front of us. So, again, to me- he was just like her- except I never thought that until the separation. I would say, "Please work on our marriage" and he would say "I don't have time- work is busy, yada yada".

 

Just like Walks exhusband- as soon as I was ready to walk, he was ready to do whatever but I had already withdrawn long before. Yet, he had promised before he would change (like my mom would say she would) and he never did. Also, these were words- and how could I believe them??? Then, he did the same clingy, whiny, stuff. Trying to manipulate me or bargain with me to stay.

 

Have you read "Love must be tough" by James Dobson. This tells you exactly what NOT to do. Seriously, he did everything in that book it tells you not to do if you want to win your spouse back.

 

Has something happened in your wife's life lately that escalated her stress? For instance, before I had the A- I had two deaths in the family- one of them was the only person who ever put me first- a hysterectomy- major financial stress etc. The last death of the most important person at my life was the trigger that started the whole cycle in which I had the A and then eventually left my exhusband. There is usually a stressor, a breaking point.

 

Really think hard about that. When did you start to notice things cracking and what happened around that time???