Living in Western society

[Visitor]

I was just wondering if anyone can give me some help to cope with living in a scoiety that places more value on money and material goods instead of community. Have you found a way to 'fit in' or do you just escape somehow?

[Outcast]

Find your own joys and look for people who share your feelings. Google around to find people who write about things like 'doing less with more' 'minimalism', etc.

 

You're not alone - it's just a little harder to find likemindeds because pop culture is so materialistic.

[Neptune]

You mentioned money and material goods. The thing I notice is the individualism in western society. Which I believe stems from money and material goods. In a word, affluence. Mother Teresa said the greatest poverty is lonliness. And she lived with the poorest of the poor.

 

She considered western societies greatest weakness the isolation of the individual. It is difficult to escape it. From this individualism stems the concept of personal fulfillment. Which tends to focus on money and material goods.

 

Each person must seek those of like mind. Some of the best people I have seen are in churches that are not affluent. Not all, just some.

[Visitor]

Hi Outcast

 

I like your name - it just about sums up how I feel

 

It's hard because I am trying to create a 'space' for myself in this society, and don't know many local people who share my beliefs, so I don't want to just retreat to an isolated existance online, and I can't afford or possibly move to another country, or commune, etc. where I might

 

Should I just walk around imaging a better world in my head and hope people don't think I am crazy?

[Outcast]

Well if you hunt around online you may actually find some local people who share your beliefs.

[Visitor]

Hi Neptune,

 

I agree with you about westerners being indivdiuals at all costs (often to the detrement of the community) and I have lived in socialst, communist (and even some capitalist) countries before where there is much more emphasis on community above individualism, but it all seems to be disappearing these days with global investing (indivdiual international real estate investing, etc.)

[Visitor]

Hi Outcast,

 

I know you mentioned "Googling" but what exactly do you search for? Communes? Churches? Could I ask everyone on LS if they live near me?

 

I've never 'looked' for people on the Internet

[westernxer]

You take it one day at a time, and look for things that bring you inner peace.

[Visitor]

What does the "x" in wester"x"er stand for?

 

I try and do that but I get beaten down day by day because all the things I value (peace and quiet, respecting others, helping others, being nice, etc.) get destroyed on a daily basis, and as soon as I 'open' myself to 'cherish' thopse things as you suggest, they get destroyed. It's like being kicked in the guts, and after a while I stop letting myself believe in them because I know they will be wrenched from me

 

Does that make any sense ?

 

I would just like to live somewhere where the goal isn't instant gratification or greed, and where people seflishlessly (is that a word? treated each other like humans

[westernxer]

What does the "x" in wester"x"er stand for?

 

I have no clue.

 

I would just like to live somewhere where the goal isn't instant gratification or greed, and where people seflishlessly (is that a word? treated each other like humans

 

Move to Montana. Last I heard, hardly anyone lived there, and it's beautiful in the summer.

[Outcast]

Here's one source for starters.

 

http://www.simpleliving.net/studygroups/database-search.asp

 

Search on all sorts of related words and phrases (I found this one using simple living forums) and use 'forums' 'support' 'support groups' or 'communities' as part of your search and you can add your city or state.

 

You'll not only find online communities, you'll probably find clubs and other groups that meet face-to-face.

[Visitor]

I've heard Monatana is beautiful and spacious ...unfortunately from what I've also heard, I don't think lots of guns and the lifestyle I'm hoping for are a good recipe

 

And that simple living weblink is great, thanks I didn't find anyone in my area, but I love the title of that recommended book "Your Money Or Your Life" - It just about sums it up!

 

Cheers

[This_Too_Shall_Pass]

Move to Montana. Last I heard, hardly anyone lived there, and it's beautiful in the summer.

 

But I don't think Visitor got the joke...

 

Anyway, Visitor...I understand what you're talking about. But you know, Western society is not the only one with emphasis on material things...I believe almost every society has that trait to an extent.

 

I'll tell you a basic principle of human psychology that might explain this - every person wants to be the best. The man, you know. The most popular / powerful person. In a commercialized society, it is usually the rich guy. In a tribe living in the Amazon rainforests, it's the guy who's the best sharpshooter / fastest runner. Again, how powerful you become is also directly related to your competitive instinct.

 

So my point is this: you can't escape from something that is a basic part of human psychology. But yes, if you're talking about being able to escape urban materialism, Montana is a good place to go. Or an island in the Pacific (mind you, don't pick tourist destinations). Other than that, the best you can do is to adjust somehow. I know it can be tough sometimes...but we have to, on this planet at least.

[Outcast]

every person wants to be the best

 

I'm thinking not so much. People have vastly different motivations. Yes, some are motivated/driven to succeed, and some of those are motivated/driven to be 'the best' but there are many other types of people, too.

[This_Too_Shall_Pass]

Hmmm. Yes, in the literal sense of the term, you're right. People do have different motivations.

 

In this context though, what I was trying to say was that you rarely find a person who doesn't like appreciation and recognition. In most cases, appreciation or recognition brings "power" with it - power of being thought as "better" than others. It reinforces one's feeling of worthiness, and the more socially-oriented a person is, the more he seeks this feeling. That in itself explains why "power" of any kind is addictive, and the competition to obtain it so fierce.

 

On the other end of the spectrum are those who are highly inwardly-oriented. However, even they need approval - from themselves. And for that, they have to compete against externalities. So there you see, one more person who's motivated to compete against the rest.

 

And speaking strictly of materialism...the more the competition for "scarce resources", the more is the materialism. In other words, putting "me" before "we" or "us".

[newbby]

the stillness inside never changes. if you can find that, then you can be at peace anywhere.

[Apex]

What are some of the problems with society?

I never liked conspicuous consumption, self-gratification, selfishness, cruelty, etc.

 

I think these problems are symptoms of

- The decline of families

- The decline of the Church

- The decline of the community

- The decline of society in general

 

What are some of the causes?

- Runaway Liberalism: Some political groups. I think they are enabling bad parenting, sex and violence in the media, substance abuse, and criminals in general.

- Bad parenting. This is a symptom of family decline and one of the underlying causes.

- The media: Movies, video games, sex, violence, etc.

- Substance abuse: Legal and illicit drugs. Poisonous and toxic chemicals.

- Crime: This is a self-perpetuating weed that seems to hurt everybody.

- In a sense, economic prosperity: Maybe people are getting spoiled.

 

I get the impression that some people think government can substitute families, the Church, and the community, and regulate society in general. The only thing government seems to be good at is law enforcement, and waging war.

 

I think these causes are like weeds. If you don’t weed your garden, the weeds will take over, multiply like crazy, and choke the productive plants.

[a4a]

I think many people have lost the ability to feel compassion for others.

Commercialism is shoved down our throat at every corner. We have constant pressure to fit into the latest trends to feel that we are part of the group.

 

There are many people out there that are not materialistic, that do not have missing pieces needing to be filled in by attaining material goods and keeping up with the Jones. They just are a little harder to find then those flaunting the fact that they are in the IN crowd.

 

a4a

[Apex]

She considered western societies greatest weakness the isolation of the individual. It is difficult to escape it. From this individualism stems the concept of personal fulfillment. Which tends to focus on money and material goods.

The 60s and 70s counterculture focused on individualism, and it wasn’t really based on money or goods.

[Moai]

I think it is the spoiled children of hippies who resent the fact that they have to work for a living, and that their actions have consequences that is ruining society. I don't know any, but they are out there. I see them in traffic.

 

I think the decline of the Church is actually a good thing.

 

I also think that materialism is a good thing. Someone is getting paid to make H3's, or iPods, or whatever, and if nobody buys them they have no job. And those people use that money to feed, house, and clothe their families. It's all part of the cycle. Advertising makes it seem like people are totally driven by and over-value material goods, but I don't think that is the case.

 

I don't know anybody who is materialistic. If you're into expensive cars, good for you. But that doesn't mean it matters to anyone else. The people I interact with care more about friends and family than they do "stuff."

[Apex]

And speaking strictly of materialism...the more the competition for "scarce resources", the more is the materialism. In other words, putting "me" before "we" or "us".

Competition can also bring out the best from people.

I think the trend is more cheating.

[Apex]

I think the decline of the Church is actually a good thing.

How is that a good thing?

[Outcast]

Here we go into a right-wing left-wing political debate which does not answer the OPs question at all. If you must discuss the woeful decline of society, maybe take it to another thread.

[Apex]

Here we go into a right-wing left-wing political debate which does not answer the OPs question at all. If you must discuss the woeful decline of society, maybe take it to another thread.

The Church is, in itself, a community. They have a code of conduct and they pressure their members to follow it.

I think the neighborhood community has broken down as a result of crime, drugs, and to some degree, desegregation.

 

Oddly enough, this forum is also a community. Perhaps LoveShack is one of those escapes Visitor was looking for. Unfortunately, it is very sterile because of the lack of direct human contact.

[Moai]

How is that a good thing?

 

The fact that the Church is in decline--I assume you mean the Catholic church--is a good thing because religion is one of the things that has been holding us back for thousands of years. War, persecution, torture, rape, general mayhem, all in the name of The Church.

 

As evidenced by the recent molestation issues, believing in God doesn't make a person more moral than someone who doesn't. It seems to me in many cases it makes them less so. "I don't have to be tolerant of you because my 2,000 year old book says that you are evil and I should kill you." The current problems in the Middle East are because of religion.

 

Athiests in the U.S., for example, make up roughly 4% of the population, yet they make up less than .001% of all convicted criminals. Most convicts express belief in God, yet they commited acts bad enough to get them sequestered from society. Believers would think that atheists would be equally represented in the prison population--or that they would make up MORE of the population, but that is not the case.

 

I am not certain that the Church IS in decline, really. There are other faiths that are going strong--I think that's a bummer, but it's a free country. One sect or cult doesn't have a monopoly on "truth" or morality.

 

More to the point, though, all of the problems mentioned earlier and the feeling of disconnectedness and alienation caused by "materialism" have been with us since the Industrial Revolution. Every generation thinks that the one following is weird, immoral, shiftless, etc. "When I was a kid blah blah blah." Most people feel isolated at one time in their life or another. Most people are disenchanted with the endless pursuit of material goods eventually. It will always be so as long as we have technology.