Outcast Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Outcast's Man: "Baby, I love you so much." Outcast: "I am not an infant and I find your outburst of emotion a bit unsettling but I will admit that I do not find your presence altogether disagreeable." Reread my post, Tan. I'm talking about reasonable feelings. It would be eminently reasonable for some fellow to love me a lot Link to post Share on other sites
seachange Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Yea, pretty much. If you go by the posts, you'll see that most of the guys would like their wives to take their names. If the wives don't, the common thread among the men is disappointment and a sense of sadness tinged with rejection. But if you go by most of the female responses, you'll see posts like "So what" and "Losing her identity" and the like. How their men feel about it is pretty much ignored. From where I sit, I see men expressing their feelings about the issue (which is a rare occurrence indeed) and those feelings being summarily dismissed by some of the women. Hence, it opens another debate: Women who say they want their men to express their feelings, but the moment the guys do, they're either attacked or their feelings are dismissed as irrelevant. And so it goes, on and on. Slubber, what I see is hurt women AND hurt men. True, both sides apparently believe their own hurt feelings should be considered first - but I really don't see that the men are paying any more attention to the women's feelings in this situation. From these posts, all I see is that they're primarily concerned with their own. I'm not sure WHY it is so hard to see that when a woman is making this difficult decision - and yes, for some, it is indeed very difficult - she is also hurting? Why assume she's indifferent, if you aren't? "Losing her identity" is a big deal, but that's more often dismissed here as irrelevant and selfish than valid. To sum up, I see the men also doing what you're accusing the women of. As for men expressing their feelings - yes, there's been a lot of that, and honestly, that's been really enlightening and has certainly made me (and apparently a4a, who asked the original question for insight) see the situation in a different light. But that's taken away a bit by the other, rather insulting stuff insinuating that women are, by and large, grasping creatures who should be satisfied with a big ole rock or other money thrown at them. Nonsense. I'll tell you something. The battle lines apparently have been drawn in old grooves here on this issue. But as for all of that bulls*** - I cannot believe that anybody here really believes that crap. How could you? Truly? I just can't fathom it. If you did, you wouldn't want a relationship in the first place. So can we leave the cliched financial nonsense out of it, please?? Link to post Share on other sites
Author a4a Posted December 6, 2005 Author Share Posted December 6, 2005 After a one hour discussion about the name situation and the exploration of all sides. It has been determined that my name will remain without a glimmer of guilt attached to it. I will briefly give his side of things and outcome in a nutshell: 1. First reaction: he said it was insulting and did quote the "pants in the family" statement when asked how he would think others would procieve us. But not angry at all. We are capable of discussion without becoming angry. 2. I used Sea Changes over lapping circles to explain things, where I have been who I am, my previous life. Explained my desire and the guilt that came with this, fear of hurting him ect. I explained I was not rejecting him nor his name and would take his name if I had not had one before we met. I gave an example of a Little movie called Roots.... Kunta Kente vs. Toby (he said he would not beat me or cut off my foot to force me to change my name ) 3. His Conclusion: We are not religious or traditional people so traditional name taking does not apply. If it is that important to me and I feel a loss at losing my own name he would not want me to take his. He went on to say our names did not combine properly and my first name with his did not flow when spoken. (however it does in my view) He suggested we make up our own last name : DOOSLEDORF where he got this I do not know. It was a most excellent discussion. I again asked if my strength as an individual bothered him..... he said no it adds to our strength as a partnership, he would not want a fru fru submissive woman as they are of no use to him and are just a drain.( I suggested that they are good to wash dishes and give BJs, he said they would not because they would find both GROSS ) I did not win this, his balls are still fully intact. We came to the conclusion together that my desire was much stronger than his and he could really give a crap what others think, and we are a equal partnership. So men that feel like a battle in this gender war was lost feel free to post your reaction. However if you call my husband a wimp, puss, ect expect a reply from me. A real man is one that can think beyond his own desire and be caring and compassionate enough to consider his spouses feelings, nor does he worry about being less of a man in the eyes of society becaue some may think differently. On a side note we discussed the future and ability to have sex with clones and sexual encounters on the hollodeck (sp?) of the USS Enterprise And if this should be allowed in our marriage ....... don't ask how it came up... but it was a hoot! We did discuss the word "wife" as well, and he agreed that it was attached to negative stereotypes but we are at a loss to find another word for introductions ect. We are working on it. He also said the word Husband has some negative ties to it, but not nearly as much as the word wife. I had not thought of the word Husband having some negative stereotypes, interesting point he made. a4a- happily married individual Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 It was a most excellent discussion. I again asked if my strength as an individual bothered him..... he said no it adds to our strength as a partnership, he is not being honest to himself or you... he would not want a fru fru submissive woman as they are of no use to him and are just a drain he is not being honest to himself or you... my desire was much stronger than his and he could really give a crap what others think, and we are a equal partnership. he is not being honest to himself or you... However if you call my husband a wimp, puss, ect expect a reply from me. cannot he defend himself? have him create an LS user ID. He also said the word Husband has some negative ties to it, but not nearly as much as the word wife. he is not being honest to himself or you... Link to post Share on other sites
Author a4a Posted December 6, 2005 Author Share Posted December 6, 2005 he is not being honest to himself or you... he is not being honest to himself or you... he is not being honest to himself or you... cannot he defend himself? have him create an LS user ID. he is not being honest to himself or you... LMAO!! Alpha perhaps you just don't get it....... he was honest did state his opinions and did tell me it upset him at first, but concluded that it is not that big of an issue to him as it may be to me. He has been honest and to the point in every other aspect with me if we agree or not. Sorry you take this as a loss in the gender war you participate in. Some men actually care about their spouses and some women care about their spouses not just use them and force their own desires on them. Some of us do talk, do compromise, and are honest. I know that is shocking to hear and hard to believe because if you have not experienced it how can you believe it is possible? a4a- what the hell are grape nuts made of anyway? Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 he was honest did state his opinions and did tell me it upset him at first, he is bending to accomodate you. I did the same thing 13 yrs ago with my ex-wife and it was a big mistake. Our marriage lasted 3 yrs. Some men actually care about their spouses and some women care about their spouses a woman that loves and respects her man will take his last name. you obviously don't love and respect him enough. I know that is shocking to hear and hard to believe because if you have not experienced it how can you believe it is possible? this particular subject of the woman changeing her name is hits very close to home for me. My ex wife and I have a huge blow out about this before we got married and it should have been a big red flag for me but instead I played "nice guy" and caved in and it was a huuuuuuge mistake. If I ever decide to marry again and she says I won't take your name I will tell her to get lost! Age and experience mean everything. Link to post Share on other sites
Author a4a Posted December 6, 2005 Author Share Posted December 6, 2005 he is bending to accomodate you. I did the same thing 13 yrs ago with my ex-wife and it was a big mistake. Our marriage lasted 3 yrs. a woman that loves and respects her man will take his last name. you obviously don't love and respect him enough. this particular subject of the woman changeing her name is hits very close to home for me. My ex wife and I have a huge blow out about this before we got married and it should have been a big red flag for me but instead I played "nice guy" and caved in and it was a huuuuuuge mistake. If I ever decide to marry again and she says I won't take your name I will tell her to get lost! Age and experience mean everything. Ahhh see you had a bad experience with the person... probably much more to do with lack of communication and other things than the simple name change. You are projecting your anger and hurt from your situation onto ours. Trust me my husband does not bend all that much can be rather stubborn on issues that he feels strongly about. For him this was not as important to him as it was to me. As for age Alpha that does not bring wisdom, experience does in some cases but not all. We are in our first marriage at the ripe young age of 36 and 37 not the kind of people to jump into commitment at all. I do have to say I respect your honesty that you project here on LS.... or at least your ability to say what you mean when you are feeling it. Comparing our relationship to others I would have to say that we have wide open communication for the most part. This issue was discussed before we were married as well, but came up again recently. Never once did my husband ask when I was going to legally change my name. As a matter a fact he carries my business cards to hand out with my name on them.... as he stated last night it never bothered him to do so, nor did it bother him that when the new cell phone was set up he gave them my last name so I could access the account. So this was not a huge issue to him at all. But more of an issue to me with the concern that I would be hurting his feelings. a4a Link to post Share on other sites
lindya Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Sorry you take this as a loss in the gender war you participate in. Some men actually care about their spouses and some women care about their spouses not just use them and force their own desires on them. Some of us do talk, do compromise, and are honest. a4a- what the hell are grape nuts made of anyway? That is so perfectly put. The whole "gender war" thing really does get me down about Loveshack sometimes. Anyway, question for the traditionalists. If a guy I were going to marry said "you must change your first name to Nancy, because it's a tradition in my family that women marrying into it must do so" would that be acceptable? If so, why? Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Comparing our relationship to others I would have to say that we have wide open communication for the most part. This issue was discussed before we were married as well, but came up again recently. Never once did my husband ask when I was going to legally change my name. trust me a4a when i say it does bother him and it is a major issue with him. the "communication" between you two is not as good as you think and you are also grossly underestimating how impt this is to him. in addition, he is compounding the problem cause he's not being honest to himself. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Anyway, question for the traditionalists. If a guy I were going to marry said "you must change your first name to Nancy, because it's a tradition in my family that women marrying into it must do so" would that be acceptable? If so, why? if you love and respect him enough and want to marry him then you have no choice, right? if you don't want to marry him then there is no problem. Link to post Share on other sites
Author a4a Posted December 6, 2005 Author Share Posted December 6, 2005 trust me a4a when i say it does bother him and it is a major issue with him. the "communication" between you two is not as good as you think and you are also grossly underestimating how impt this is to him. in addition, he is compounding the problem cause he's not being honest to himself. Alpha again you are projecting your personality and experience onto another person. That is how it is for you, however not every person is you. I do not mean to offend you by that. But to put your mind at ease I will ask him again this eve and tell him again to be honest with me or he will be beaten with a stick Not every man or woman out there hides behind a wall. Of course I did not attack him when we discussed this so he did not have to be defensive with me but weight it honestly. If it was such an issue why would he himself use my name on an account without me knowing about it? Why would he continue to hand out my cards with my name on them without his? He brought this to my attention I was not aware of either situation until last night..... so it really was my issue all along not his. My concern and respect for him (which you state I would not have by not taking his name) led me to post the original question. If he tells me to my face and looks me in the eye that he does not care if I keep my name I trust him enough to know it is the truth. Amazing isn't it that I can trust him........ it must be rare to have to be questioned so much. Again I am thankful to have such a wonderful person to share my life with! Well worth the wait! a4a Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 If he tells me to my face and looks me in the eye that he does not care if I keep my name I trust him enough to know it is the truth. you already stated a few times that it bothers him that you're not changing your name. now you say it does not bother him. WTF! Link to post Share on other sites
Author a4a Posted December 6, 2005 Author Share Posted December 6, 2005 if you love and respect him enough and want to marry him then you have no choice, right? if you don't want to marry him then there is no problem. Does this go with the theory that since a man is willing to sacrafice his freedom that a woman should be willing to give up anything to attain the marriage with the man..... a fair trade of sorts? His gift is himself allowing her to be in his life as his wife and she should be willing to bend because his gift is so great? May I ask where is his respect for her? If he is so willing to marry her why should it matter what her name is? If she did not dye her hair red as he wishes the marriage is off as well? a4a Link to post Share on other sites
lindya Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 if you love and respect him enough and want to marry him then you have no choice, right? if you don't want to marry him then there is no problem. So let's say it's a tradition in my family that men marrying women of the family will, from the point of marriage onwards, be known as Ralph. I meet a man called David, and we want to get married. If he refuses to change his name to Ralph, does this mean he doesn't love and respect me? Link to post Share on other sites
Author a4a Posted December 6, 2005 Author Share Posted December 6, 2005 you already stated a few times that it bothers him that you're not changing your name. now you say it does not bother him. WTF! yes I did state that he said that the one thing that came to his mind is others like yourself would see it as me not conforming to traditional ideals..... he also stated we are not traditional so it does not apply. he also stated some people may take it as "me wearing the pants" however he also stated he does not care about that. We are equals. He himself stated it does not bother him. Not I. So yes his concern was slight about how others would see it, however it was very minimal to him.... those being his only concerns and not a big deal to him. I had to ask him to list in what situations it may bother him, I had to suggest the public opinion and if it mattered to him..... in other words I had to fish to find his objections. He did not blurt them out or express hurt or anger in any of his statements....... very blah about it.... can you believe it a man who does not care if his spouse is labeled with his name...... of course you cannot believe it, because you can only see things from your view, your pain, your experience and are not willing to understand not every person should or does feel the same way as the Alphamale. a4a- what happened to Alvin and the Chipmunks? Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Does this go with the theory that since a man is willing to sacrafice his freedom that a woman should be willing to give up anything to attain the marriage with the man..... a fair trade of sorts? His gift is himself allowing her to be in his life as his wife and she should be willing to bend because his gift is so great? if most men were left to their own accord they would not marry. most women want to marry. that is the major difference. Marriage is an institution that mainly benefits females more so than males. Link to post Share on other sites
slubberdegullion Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 what happened to Alvin and the Chipmunks? Alvin is doing time for cocaine possession. Simon left the country and now lives in a commune somewhere on the east coast of India. Theodore roamed around the continent for a while, trying to hawk tapes and CDs, and at last report was living in a box under the Santa Monica Freeway. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 ..... he also stated we are not traditional so it does not apply. everyone is "traditional" a4a.... he also stated some people may take it as "me wearing the pants" yes, both men and women will think that, not just men. We are equals. i don't believe i've ever seen a relationship between two people that was totally equal. Almost always there is some inequity. He himself stated it does not bother him. Not I. he is lying to appease you. He did not blurt them out or express hurt or anger in any of his statements....... yes cause he was afraid to piss you off. he's living in fear can you believe it a man who does not care if his spouse is labeled with his name...... well if he really does not care then should not you be offended that this dude doesn't even care whether or not you have his family's last name? he has no stance, no opinion, no spine, no viewpoint, doesn't stand for his beliefs?? Link to post Share on other sites
tanbark813 Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Well I never viewed this as a gender war to be won or lost so I can't help you there. But I will say, a4a, that while you have tried to maintain a neutral position throughout this post and feigned trying to gain insight to either side of the argument, it sounds more like you were looking for ways to convince your fiance that you're right. It doesn't sound so much like you guys discussed it, but rather, you bullet-pointed all the reasons he is wrong. It's not altogether surprising as none of us can be entirely objective. We all have our biases. It's also a bit of a tangent to the original question, but I thought it beared mention. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 It doesn't sound so much like you guys discussed it, but rather, you bullet-pointed all the reasons he is wrong.. EXACT A MUNDO TANBARK....a4a has not even mentioned once how life would be easier if she did take his last name. You know....filling out forms, applications, etc.... Haveing two married people with different last names is just another hassle you don't need. Link to post Share on other sites
Author a4a Posted December 6, 2005 Author Share Posted December 6, 2005 everyone is "traditional" a4a.... yes, both men and women will think that, not just men. i don't believe i've ever seen a relationship between two people that was totally equal. Almost always there is some inequity. he is lying to appease you. yes cause he was afraid to piss you off. he's living in fear well if he really does not care then should not you be offended that this dude doesn't even care whether or not you have his family's last name? he has no stance, no opinion, no spine, no viewpoint, doesn't stand for his beliefs?? A man that has character and a spine would certainly stand for his beliefs but also realize that others are entitled to their own as well, and be man enough to understand that he should not force his beliefs on others if it serves no purpose to that person or to himself. That woud be a matter of being self-opinionated..... not a matter of character or strength? And no it does not bother me any bit about not using his name nor does it bother me that he did not take my name. And let the chatter and talk from outsiders happen, if they find their life to be so mundane that they would take a serious interest in our last names I am glad to provide them with a topic that they can focus on and get some excitement out of. What is he afraid of? What do I hold over him to cause fear? I guess I could beat the hell outta him Of course he is trying to please me not appease me, we think it is important to consider each of our feelings on matters. Is there something wrong with wanting to please your partner? Is there something wrong with wanting to consider your partners feelings? Must fear be used to force caring for another person? What do you mean by traditional? If you are referring to the marriage itself it was not traditional and was done as a contract between us as individuals not under traditional or religious meanings at all. To both of us marriage is between us not a matter of the church or social pressure. It was an option to commit through a legal binding contract that is commonly used and available (we could have drawn up living arr. contract but he preferred to use the legal contract of marriage) He also chose to invite his family to celebrate our union..to him this was important so I respected it and went with it.... We shared the wedding plans, I did not run the show at all. Not a traditional marriage in many ways at all. As for being equal..... well I do more laundry..... he does chop wood for the fireplace...... we put up fencing together, we load hay and grain together... it equals out. We use our talents to help were the other may fall short, so I guess you are kinda right. But on input on matters we both agree that we should and do have equal say. a4a Link to post Share on other sites
Outcast Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 trust me a4a when i say it does bother him and it is a major issue with him a4a, I wouldn't bother trying to persuade this lot that your husband is honest. Some humans are chronically incapable of understanding that not all humans think exactly like them. Why anyone would be so convinced that all men or all women are exactly alike mystifies me. Simple logic should suffice - SIX BILLION humans each comprised of billions of cells and, more importantly, brain synapses, obviously are not all alike. This is the sort of thinking that's at the root of disdain for the economically disadvantaged, inability to comprehend the tribulations of people with mental ailments, etc. And you can never persuade one of these folks that they are actually wrong, that they do not represent all humans, and that not all brains are constructed identically. I suppose there's a name for this sort of thinking someplace in psychology but you'll waste all of your time, type your fingers to the bone, and still not be able to convey to these sorts that in fact they do NOT represent the thoughts of anyone other than themselves. And the most bizarre thing of all to me is that logic, such as your point be man enough to understand that he should not force his beliefs on others if it serves no purpose to that person or to himself is insufficient to persuade them. It's a situation which never fails to flabbergast me. Link to post Share on other sites
Author a4a Posted December 6, 2005 Author Share Posted December 6, 2005 EXACT A MUNDO TANBARK....a4a has not even mentioned once how life would be easier if she did take his last name. You know....filling out forms, applications, etc.... Haveing two married people with different last names is just another hassle you don't need. Actually it would be quite the opposite ...... it would be a much greater pain for me to change my name to his. I have 37 years of my name on businesses, legal forms, bank and credit accounts, cars, trucks, insurance, including fed forms that would have to be changed..... quite the opposite. I did not even think of that..... you are correct name changing would be a serious pain in the ass! Another reason to keep my own. And I would have to change our return address labels that have both our names on them...... geeeze.....that would suck. Forgot about those too. As for me trying to convince him..... no.... no need. I asked how important it was to him that I have his name after my own. I asked him to list reasons why he thought it could be important.... he came up with reasons and why they really were not that important...... again as I stated this issue was much bigger to me then it ever was for him. My concern was his feelings where he had little concern about the whole thing. I was actually quite surprised that he had so little concern after seeing the posts here about the topic. He did bring up the fact that if I had been previously married he may have different feelings if I retained the name of an ex husband and would not take his. I could certainly understand that and would take his name or would have already changed back to my maiden name post divorce. However that does not apply but if it did I certainly would see his point in that matter. a4a Link to post Share on other sites
loony Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Certain women are running the risk of being labeled as feminists, too. <Munching popcorn> Link to post Share on other sites
tanbark813 Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 And let the chatter and talk from outsiders happen, if they find their life to be so mundane that they would take a serious interest in our last names I am glad to provide them with a topic that they can focus on and get some excitement out of. You're the one that started the thread, sweeite. Oh, and look! Here comes Outcast right on schedule hurling insults that, ironically, apply more to herself than anyone else. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts