Is empathy unachievable?

[Outcast]

Time and again, I see people (here, talk shows, discussions in groups, etc) who seem unable to 'walk a mile' in others' shoes. People seem to look at a situation, decide how they'd feel or react in that situation, and then extrapolate their thoughts/feelings/abilities to the person in the situation and judge that person based upon their own personalities.

 

Why is this?

 

We are all unique, are we not? None of us can say that we are identical to anyone else, right? So how is it that people seem to think that 'if I think/do/believe X, then every other human thinks/does/believes X exactly the same way'?

 

Would it be fair or reasonable for Lance Armstrong to look at every one of us and say 'everybody on the earth could win the Tour de France multiple times if they just tried'?

 

Is it just or fair to expect someone with a mental disorder to have the same 'attitude' as someone who hasn't got one?

 

Why is it OK for one partner to demand that his or her feelings be respected but think it's ok to ignore the feelings of his or her partner?

 

Is it impossible to hope that people will try to see things from others' perspectives before they condemn?

[a4a]

Perhaps failure to feel empathy is based on fear partially....???

 

Interesting topic..... will get back to it soon.... must shuffle papers...and look busy.....

 

a4a

[newbby]

outcast, i am just curious, do you think you do this? have empathy with things you have not experienced i mean?

[Outcast]

newbby I'll answer questions after I see people's answers.

[JS17]

I don't think empathy is unachievable on an individual level but on a mass scale I believe it is. Open mindedness is a gift, for some it comes naturally and for others it takes a lot of time and effort. I believe that self awareness is the key to having empathy. Only when you understand who you are can you begin to understand others.

 

There is a burden to bear with having empathy. We live in a cruel tough world and understanding other's pain is a lot of weight to carry on one's shoulders.

[newbby]

empathy is achievable but only if you realise that you are locked in your own set of id experiences. in other words to understand, you need to understand that you may not understand.

[basscatcher]

Empathy (www.dictionary.com)

1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. See Synonyms at [COLOR=#0033ff]pity[/COLOR].
   
2. The attribution of one's own feelings to an object.

Identification (www.dictionary.com)

1. A person's association with the qualities, characteristics, or views of another person or group.
   
2. An unconscious process by which a person transfers the response appropriate to a particular person or group to a different person or group

Attribution (www.dictionary.com)

1. The act of attributing, especially the act of establishing a particular person as the creator of a work of art.
   
2. Something, such as a quality or characteristic, that is related to a particular possessor; an attribute.

Association (www.dictionary.com)

1. The act of associating or the state of being associated.
   
2. An organized body of people who have an interest, activity, or purpose in common; a society.
   
   1. <LI type=a>A mental connection or relation between thoughts, feelings, ideas, or sensations.
      
   2. A remembered or imagined feeling, emotion, idea, or sensation linked to a person, object, or idea.

[*]Chemistry. Any of various processes of combination, such as hydration, solvation, or complex-ion formation, depending on relatively weak chemical bonding.

[*]Ecology. A large number of organisms in a specific geographic area constituting a community with one or two dominant species.

I think understanding some of these words will help to understand peoples ideas of it and opinions.

[lindya]

Is it impossible to hope that people will try to see things from others' perspectives before they condemn?

 

In some cases, it probably is. Think of narcissists and psychopaths, and the lack of empathy that causes them to think and behave in destructive patterns. Other times...I don't know. Perhaps the inability to put oneself in another person's shoes is sometimes a sign of an unimaginative or concrete thinker.

 

Then there's the desire to "belong" to the largest group - or that which is seen as holding most power. Judging and condemning another group or an individual can be seen as a means of doing this - eg at an extreme level, the National Front in the UK tends to attract many socially inept people who revel in the delusion that their skin colour places them in a superior category.

 

Laziness or compassion fatigue could also be factors in some cases....or simple crossed communication. Then there's "opportunity cost." The cost of being empathic in a given situation may be that a person foregoes the opportunity of making a joke at someone else's expense.

[SmoochieFace]

Time and again, I see people (here, talk shows, discussions in groups, etc) who seem unable to 'walk a mile' in others' shoes. People seem to look at a situation, decide how they'd feel or react in that situation, and then extrapolate their thoughts/feelings/abilities to the person in the situation and judge that person based upon their own personalities.

 

I agree - and there seems to be a lot of this here on LS.

 

Why is this?

 

I am curious to learn the answer to that as well. I suspect that it has something to do with individuals' temperaments (intuitive people are *better* at empathy than sensing types AND bear in mind that sensing types outnumber the intuitives 3 to 1).

 

We are all unique, are we not? None of us can say that we are identical to anyone else, right?

 

Absolutely.

 

So how is it that people seem to think that 'if I think/do/believe X, then every other human thinks/does/believes X exactly the same way'?

 

I think it has to do with temperament.

 

Would it be fair or reasonable for Lance Armstrong to look at every one of us and say 'everybody on the earth could win the Tour de France multiple times if they just tried'?

 

To me, certainly not, and that stance effectively dismisses individuality in people.

 

Is it just or fair to expect someone with a mental disorder to have the same 'attitude' as someone who hasn't got one?

 

No way. I have Asperger's and VERY few people understand it or even care to understand it. Kinda like "well, Idon't have it so it must not be important or worthy of understanding."

 

Why is it OK for one partner to demand that his or her feelings be respected but think it's ok to ignore the feelings of his or her partner?

 

To me, it ISN'T *okay*. I consider that selfish and, unfortunately, selfishness is rampant in this *me me me* culture.

 

Is it impossible to hope that people will try to see things from others' perspectives before they condemn?

 

It IS possible however it would take tremendous effort and I do not believe most people are up to the task.

[lindya]

I have Asperger's and VERY few people understand it or even care to understand it. Kinda like "well, Idon't have it so it must not be important or worthy of understanding."

 

Smoochie, I don't know if you've started up a thread about AS in the past....but perhaps it would be an idea to start one now? I have a very basic knowledge of what it is, but it would certainly be interesting to find out more from someone who has personal experience of it.

 

My understanding is that, amongst other things, people with AS need some guidance in order to master certain subtleties of social interaction - and that this can frequently lead to misunderstandings.

[Moose]

Regardless if it's achievable or not, is there any way to tell if someone has sincere empathy for anything unless you are that person?

[newbby]

well there are ways of telling when they dont

[alphamale]

Is it impossible to hope that people will try to see things from others' perspectives before they condemn?

this conundrum is part and parcel of the human condition. it is frail human emotions that f*** everything up and prevent people from being objective.

[quankanne]

I've never thought of empathy as something one "achieves," but rather, "possesses." One is empathetic or one isn't.

 

Would it be fair or reasonable for Lance Armstrong to look at every one of us and say 'everybody on the earth could win the Tour de France multiple times if they just tried'? … Is it impossible to hope that people will try to see things from others' perspectives before they condemn?

 

life isn't fair, and people are entitled to their opinions, and those opinions are not necessarily condemnations of another.

 

if Lance felt that a person could attain a goal (not necessarily his personal goal) by giving it his or her all, I say that is a reasonable outlook for someone who conquered the odds the way he has. He's got a reason to believe in a person's potential because he believes in his own – he knows that it takes hard work to achieve a goal with obstables obstructing the way, but he also know how much sweeter the victory of that success.

 

most of us who possess this outlook expect others to be capable of achieving whatever goal they set because it deals with the issue of empowerment. Empathy should not be confused with pity, or even cutting slack for someone who feels sorry for him/herself and refuses to succeed because they expect the fruits of success to be handed to him/her. Especially when there are thousands of people in situations similar or worse who have succeeded in reaching their goals.

 

the models would be:

 

empathy – going past the understanding of a person's feelings and helping that person achieve or do by encouraging them (i.e., helping your child earn the money needed to buy the iPod he wants)

 

sympathy – feeling so much for someone's situation that you do whatever you need to do to accomplish that person's desire (i.e., buying the iPod for the kid so that he has it)

 

the end result might be the same but the difference is in the delivery of that goal (getting the iPod): how much more valued is that possession going to be when the child is actively involved in achieving that goal? You're not being unempathetic to his needs, but helping him to succeed as he is capable.

[ThumbingMyWay]

Is it impossible to hope that people will try to see things from others' perspectives before they condemn?

 

yes....we can HOPE... it is a great thing.

 

But I admit...I see things a certain way...and dont understand why others dont....I wish I didnt do that...and I try not to be this way....but its hard. We all do it...even if our actions dont show it...I believe on the inside we ALL judge based on what we think is right or wrong

[SmoochieFace]

life isn't fair, and people are entitled to their opinions, and those opinions are not necessarily condemnations of another.

 

Opinions turn into outright condemnations when they are qualified with personal attacks.

[SmoochieFace]

Smoochie, I don't know if you've started up a thread about AS in the past....but perhaps it would be an idea to start one now? I have a very basic knowledge of what it is, but it would certainly be interesting to find out more from someone who has personal experience of it.

 

My understanding is that, amongst other things, people with AS need some guidance in order to master certain subtleties of social interaction - and that this can frequently lead to misunderstandings.

 

Thank you for the suggestion. I will start a thread on this subject before the week is out. It will be done with two purposes in mind - to perhaps lessen ignorance of AS and also to seek out help in dealing with it.

[newbby]

so everyone agrees that empathy or lack of is all about the ego?

[SmoochieFace]

so everyone agrees that empathy or lack of is all about the ego?

 

I will postulate that those who have little or no empathy have larger than average egos.

[lindya]

empathy – going past the understanding of a person's feelings and helping that person achieve or do by encouraging them (i.e., helping your child earn the money needed to buy the iPod he wants)

 

Definitely agree. If you empower someone, you do far more for them than you do by handing everything to them and encouraging them to be dependent on you.

 

I think empathic empowerment involves help someone to identify a) what they want, and b) what the obstacles to that goal are. To establish which of those obstacles are self imposed and can therefore definitely be overcome...and which goals are comprised of external factors and will therefore be trickier - but not impossible - to overcome.

 

If someone were to insist that none of the obstacles in their path were self imposed, then that would ring warning bells for me. Now and again I've become frustrated with posters on LS who continually view themselves as the innocent victims of an endless parade of wicked people.

 

When someone takes that line, you just know it's going to be very difficult to empower them...and often they become quite angry when other people try to help them take responsibility over their own lives. It's that sort of situation (there was a thread that exemplified it several weeks ago in which whatever advice was given, the original poster perceived it as insulting or offensive) that leaves me feeling drained of all empathy.

[newbby]

I will postulate that those who have little or no empathy have larger than average egos.

 

i think dont practise being outside the ego maybe

[quankanne]

Opinions turn into outright condemnations when they are qualified with personal attacks.

 

but not all opinions devolve into outright condemnations or attacks, they merely exist. Unfortunately, there are some who don't get the part of respectfully disagreeing with another's opinion, or who prefer to egg on a situation that results in said attacks.

 

It's that sort of situation … that leaves me feeling drained of all empathy.

 

ah … emotional vampirism and sense of entitlement. Yep, that's enough to squelch any feelings of goodwill or empathy.

[newbby]

If someone were to insist that none of the obstacles in their path were self imposed, then that would ring warning bells for me. Now and again I've become frustrated with posters on LS who continually view themselves as the innocent victims of an endless parade of wicked people.

 

 

dont you think though, that they may do this only because of a deep self loathing or something though?

[quankanne]

dont you think though, that they may do this only because of a deep self loathing or something though?

 

more like a lack of personal responsibility for their actions (or lack of them) or a sense of entitlement. In my experience, self-loathing manifests itself in self-hurt because that person doesn't feel worthy of love, feel attractive or smart, etc., and suspect or know they understand they are the at the seat of their frustrations. The people who feel they are owed don't believe they are responsible for their succeses, but that others are – hence feeling victimized when they don't get what they feel they are entitled.

[lindya]

dont you think though, that they may do this only because of a deep self loathing or something though?

 

Yes, but if someone is suffering from self loathing to the extent that they'll sabotage all efforts to help them, then they really need the assistance of a counsellor. I've often read comments mocking the "get a counsellor" advice...but sometimes it really would take a trained (and paid!) professional to put in the substantial amount of work, not to mention maintain the necessary patience, that would help the individual make any meaningful progress.