Is empathy unachievable?

[seachange]

cool topic, Outcast. I agree with other posters that it's probably fear and ego that drive a lack of empathy - fear of bruising one's own ego, maybe?

 

and on that last page, alpha said something I thought was interesting - that it's frail human emotions that are to blame. which makes sense, when we're thinking about fear and ego...but then it got me wondering along a tangent: do you guys think the ability to empathize is more emotional or intellectual? both? neither?

[quankanne]

emotional. Because you can always intellectualize yourself out of human response to a perceived need.

[Outcast]

Great replies so far, folks!

 

I'll toss another couple of comments in

 

I've never thought of empathy as something one "achieves," but rather, "possesses." One is empathetic or one isn't.

 

Interesting. So it's not possible to learn? Essentially, everyone's understanding of others is cast in stone in your opinion?

 

empathy is achievable but only if you realise that you are locked in your own set of id experiences. in other words to understand, you need to understand that you may not understand.

 

Agree completely.

 

Empathy should not be confused with pity, or even cutting slack for someone who feels sorry for him/herself and refuses to succeed because they expect the fruits of success to be handed to him/her. Especially when there are thousands of people in situations similar or worse who have succeeded in reaching their goals.

 

Empathy should not be confused with pity, or even cutting slack for someone who feels sorry for him/herself and refuses to succeed because they expect the fruits of success to be handed to him/her. Especially when there are thousands of people in situations similar or worse who have succeeded in reaching their goals

 

Well this cuts to the heart of why I'm asking. Can you equate 'situations' with 'personalities' or 'abilities'. Is it not possible to differentiate between the single mother with two kids who's lost all sense of self-esteem and has become depressed and the single mother with two kids who has very strong resilience and can still face each day with optimism and strength?

 

who feels sorry for him/herself and refuses to succeed because they expect the fruits of success to be handed to him/her

 

I'm always surprised to read that so many people think that everyone in dire straits is that way due to these attitudes when the research shows that in fact it's only a small percentage of disadvantaged people who feel that mythical sense of entitlement. And here is one big source of lack of empathy, IMHO - the belief that people are actually slackers. The research shows it's not true.

 

which goals are comprised of external factors and will therefore be trickier - but not impossible - to overcome.

 

Again, isn't that only possible on the condition that an individual is fully healthy of mind and body? If depression is rampant in the monied, why do people think that disabling depression has somehow avoided people who have little achievement and few belongings and a poor future to look forward to.

 

If someone were to insist that none of the obstacles in their path were self imposed, then that would ring warning bells for me. Now and again I've become frustrated with posters on LS who continually view themselves as the innocent victims of an endless parade of wicked people.

 

But as someone else suggested, is it not incongruent to think that someone with internal difficulties would have sufficient self-awareness to understand that they have such difficulties?

[seachange]

emotional. Because you can always intellectualize yourself out of human response to a perceived need.

 

great point, quankanne.

 

re: that earlier question about learned/innate ability to empathize: i think some people do have an easier time with it - but that doesn't mean their own egos don't get in the way at times. it's an achilles heel, of sorts - they know they're good at it, so it's hard to admit when they succumb to intellectualizing and rationalizing rather than empathizing.

 

oddly, i think that's where the intellectual part comes in. you have to be aware, with a part of yourself that is separate from your emotions, when you're doing that and of your own motivations. so i guess i'm saying, in my opinion, it's both.

 

this doesn't really get at outcast's latest points, though...gotta think about those.

[lindya]

But as someone else suggested, is it not incongruent to think that someone with internal difficulties would have sufficient self-awareness to understand that they have such difficulties?

 

It's interesting....because I had a discussion along these lines with a friend recently - and she said something very similar.

 

We concluded that in order to help someone to develop the self awareness they need in order to identify and address their problems, you need to create a safe feeling environment where they're not going to feel judged or criticised....then gauge as best you can how much reality injecting they can cope with.

 

It's very difficult to achieve that on a message board - which is, I suppose, partly where the frustration can set in.

[johan]

Time and again, I see people (here, talk shows, discussions in groups, etc) who seem unable to 'walk a mile' in others' shoes. People seem to look at a situation, decide how they'd feel or react in that situation, and then extrapolate their thoughts/feelings/abilities to the person in the situation and judge that person based upon their own personalities.

 

Why is this?

 

Human nature. To ask these questions implies idealistic expectations that contradict reality. I could just as easily post a thread entitled "why can't we just all get along?" You know all these questions aren't answerable to anyone's satisfaction, and any decent answer isn't going to change anything in anyone, regardless of whether they read it.

 

We are all unique, are we not? None of us can say that we are identical to anyone else, right? So how is it that people seem to think that 'if I think/do/believe X, then every other human thinks/does/believes X exactly the same way'?

 

Would it be fair or reasonable for Lance Armstrong to look at every one of us and say 'everybody on the earth could win the Tour de France multiple times if they just tried'?

 

This last question has nothing to do with empathy. Empathy would be Lance understanding the pain one feels when riding such a race, and the sacrifices each racer makes in training and time away from family, and the pressures of celebrity other famous riders endure.

 

The "we are all unique" question also does not fly with me. Of course we are the compilation of all our experiences and genetics and etc. But we are all human and our emotions are generally exactly the same. What causes us to feel them might be different, but the one thing the non-pathological among us have in common is our emotions. True empathy requires precise and complete communication, which few "feelers" are capable of. It also requires commitment by the empathizer to disconnect from his/her own life to listen, imagine and feel. Those conditions rarely exist.

 

Is it just or fair to expect someone with a mental disorder to have the same 'attitude' as someone who hasn't got one?

 

No. Attitude is not the issue. Has the one with the disorders felt anger? Sadness? Fear? Can the one with the disorders meet the requirements for listening and imagining? Maybe not.

 

Why is it OK for one partner to demand that his or her feelings be respected but think it's ok to ignore the feelings of his or her partner?

 

It's always ok to demand respect. We are not always aware of when we're not showing respect. To expect that respect always be given is idealistic. You're dealing with humans.

 

Is it impossible to hope that people will try to see things from others' perspectives before they condemn?

 

Not impossible to hope. Unreasonable to expect. You have the choice who you associate with and how you respond to people. That's all the control you'll ever have.

[lindya]

True empathy requires precise and complete communication, which few "feelers" are capable of.

 

:lmao:

[ReluctantRomeo]

So it's not possible to learn? Essentially, everyone's understanding of others is cast in stone in your opinion?

 

I'd respectfully disagree with QA on this one. I think I have learned over time to be much more empathetic.

 

As well as the general learning, I would see person-specific learning. I think that it takes time and effort to learn the feelings of new people you meet. As Outcast correctly points out, you can't just deduce the feelings and attitudes of a single mother from her situation - you must actually take time to find out.

 

This effort is, in my view, one of the biggest barriers to empathy. Most people would like to be more empathetic, but are put off by the effort involved. Or they don't know how to begin.

 

 

And here is one big source of lack of empathy, IMHO - the belief that people are actually slackers. The research shows it's not true.

 

Agreed. Easy labels are a good way of avoiding the work of empathy. Ironically, those who apply these labels are probably themselves intellectual and emotional slackers

 

Cool thread, Outcast! Keep it coming

[a4a]

I think internal fear and a sort of denial works against many when it comes to empathy. They may have a sort of fear of the actual situation of the subjects lifestyle ...... such as a person who says gays deserve to get aids or so what it is just another gay with aids.....who cares....

 

I could get into this further but my coffee has not yet kicked in.

 

I do see fear and denial as a way to get around it...... or not to "feel" it.

 

a4a

[ReluctantRomeo]

I could get into this further but my coffee has not yet kicked in.

 

I feel your pain

[lindya]

I feel your pain

 

I don't feel her pain, RR...but I'm imagining right now how difficult it must be for her.

[Outcast]

I don't feel her pain, RR...but I'm imagining right now how difficult it must be for her.

 

And why is this? Because you have been in an identical situation and so can identify, because you have been in analogous situation and can transpose that which you learned from that situation, or because you can construct that situation entirely in your imagination and understand her feelings in it?

[ReluctantRomeo]

And why is this? Because you have been in an identical situation and so can identify, because you have been in analogous situation and can transpose that which you learned from that situation, or because you can construct that situation entirely in your imagination and understand her feelings in it?

 

In this case, number 1. Which has got to be the easiest. I'm good with number 2 as well.

 

Sometimes in this life though, you have to accept that you can't understand why someone feels a certain way but you still need to support it.

[Outcast]

In this case, number 1. Which has got to be the easiest. I'm good with number 2 as well.

 

I have encountered people who are only capable of #1. I wonder how many people can manage 2 or 3.

 

Sometimes in this life though, you have to accept that you can't understand why someone feels a certain way but you still need to support it.

 

Agreed.

[a4a]

Thank you all for your care and concern for my coffee intake! Very touching!

 

Can you/ do you standardize your empathy? In other words you will feel for someone as long as they fit your expectations. Such a situation would be :

A man or woman in a abusive relationship that continues to stay with the abuser. You allow yourself to feel empathy for a short period of time.

 

Are you able to have empathy for lets say a puppy hit by a car, but put out a rat trap and snap that suckers head right off without feeling a thing for it?

 

Do you have a fear of lets say motorcycles so if a person gets in a wreck you cannot have empathy because you know that they are dangerous and they should not have been riding one...... they were just asking for it!

 

 

 

What stops people from being able to feel it?

 

a4a

[lindya]

I have encountered people who are only capable of #1. I wonder how many people can manage 2 or 3.

 

 

1 and 2, yes. 3 is more tricky. I can imagine a situation, and I can know how I would feel in it. To try to imagine how another person may be feeling I'd need more information about their past experiences...and even then you can only guess.

 

Sometimes the guess is fairly spot on eg "I'm imagining that it must feel like..." "Yes - that's pretty much how I feel!" Other times.... "I'd imagine it feels like X" "No you're not quite getting it. It feels more like Y"

[ReluctantRomeo]

I have encountered people who are only capable of #1. I wonder how many people can manage 2 or 3.

 

I find 3 difficult. It's in my nature to need to understand whys and wherefores. I cope with this by asking the person how they feel and trying to map out the nuts and bolts of it.

[newbby]

do you guys think the ability to empathize is more emotional or intellectual? both? neither?

 

neither.

emotions are subjective, you can project your own emotions on to somebody elses situation, but not neccessarily feel it the way they do.

the mind knows only what it has stored due to experience.

so i would say it is spiritual, and when one practises being outside of ego, true compassion and unconditional love are possible.

of course you can also make the choice to not project your emotions and not try to understand based on past experiences, but just to accept and offer support regardless of understanding or lack of.

[newbby]

Are you able to have empathy for lets say a puppy hit by a car, but put out a rat trap and snap that suckers head right off without feeling a thing for it?

 

 

thats conditioned empathy. we love puppies, puppies are pets, and friends so it is sad if one dies, but rats are pests so it is not sad.

its the same with eating meat, why is it disgusting to eat dog but not cow?

[SmoochieFace]

thats conditioned empathy. we love puppies, puppies are pets, and friends so it is sad if one dies, but rats are pests so it is not sad.

its the same with eating meat, why is it disgusting to eat dog but not cow?

 

Cultural conditioning.

[Outcast]

but put out a rat trap and snap that suckers head right off without feeling a thing for it?

 

I'd get a live trap if possible.

[newbby]

Cultural conditioning.

 

yes, it was a rhetorical question

[ReluctantRomeo]

I'd get a live trap if possible.

 

ditto. I have empathy for rats too...

[sylviaguardian]

Empathy is based on feelings so I guess you have to differentiate between empathy, sympathy and understanding. A quick definition of empathy would be 'feeling someone else's pain'. For example, a father who was abandoned by his own father as a child and is then forced to leaved his own child would feel empathy for that child.

 

I guess then, it's hard to feel 'empathy' for someone unless we have experienced that situation (or similar) ourselves. For example, we might 'sympathise' with a mother in a stressed-out poverty-ridden situation but be unable to empathise if we ourselves haven't experienced the same feelings of powerlessness, disenfranchisement and depression. It is easy to think about what we might do in a given situation but we often have no idea of the real feelings of that person in that situation.

 

For example, someone comes and tells you that their elderly parent has died, How much you empathise will depend on your own relationship with your parents. If you were fairly independent from your parents, you might sympathise that someone has lost a parent but not empathise with the deep loss of someone who really depended on their parents.

 

On the other hand, sometimes when we empathise this does not always lead to sympathy. If we have been in a similar siutation ourselves and not resolved it, it can sometimes lead to us avoiding that person or feeling angry because we can't deal with the parallel emotions that we feel.

 

Anyway my two cents...in the mood for a ramble this afternoon!

 

Syl

[quankanne]

So it's not possible to learn? Essentially, everyone's understanding of others is cast in stone in your opinion? and Can you/ do you standardize your empathy? In other words you will feel for someone as long as they fit your expectations.

 

if empathy is something one possesses, to whatever degree, it goes to say that it is cultivated or deepened with the passage of time and with how well you relate to/identify with OP’s situation. However, it’s not very easy to cultivate a trait you do not possess.

 

both of you are missing my point: empathy isn’t a done deal, freely elicited each and every time, because there’s a process called discernment that helps you sift out the whiners and wailers WHO DEMAND BUT DO NOT ACTIVELY SEEK TO BE A PART OF THE SOLUTION.

 

you mention a scenario in which the players are affected differently (single mom, two kids trying to make a go of it). My personal experience (relatives in that situation) helps me to identify or understand a little better what they must be experiencing, and heightens the empathy I have for them. One mom is depressed, the other gung-ho – as different as they are, they’re giving as best they can with what they have. It’s the person who demands that he or she is getting screwed over, who demands that others “owe” him/her but DO NOTHING TO HELP THEMSELVES are the ones who don’t appeal to my empathetic side. I would imagine that even the mom who is depressed is doing the best to her ability to be responsible for her situation.

 

I'm always surprised to read that so many people think that everyone in dire straits is that way due to these attitudes when the research shows that in fact it's only a small percentage of disadvantaged people who feel that mythical sense of entitlement. And here is one big source of lack of empathy, IMHO - the belief that people are actually slackers. The research shows it's not true

 

you assume an awful lot with your blanket statement, and you know what they say assuming things .... Everyone in dire straits is not burdened with a sense of entitlement, but there are those who play the entitlement card – or point fingers at others who are not doing enough for them when they refuse to do for themselves. Those are the people who leave a bad taste in one’s mouth and mind. They merit my empathy, yes, but that is quickly dissipated when I realize that I'm just necessary player to suck into their game or mindset. Sorry, there are people who truly do need my help, and my bullshxt detector helps me to discern the authentic situations of need. It's about cutting to the chase so that someone in true need doesn't fall through the cracks. My empathy rightfully lies with this latter group.