Is empathy unachievable?

[Outcast]

sift out the whiners and wailers WHO DEMAND BUT DO NOT ACTIVELY SEEK TO BE A PART OF THE SOLUTION.

 

Where people like you and I differ is that I firmly believe that the percentage of the disenfranchised who are that sort of person is extremely small. It seems others are convinced that most if not all poor people are there due to being 'whiners', 'wailers', 'entitled', etc. etc. I am not.

[newbby]

Where people like you and I differ is that I firmly believe that the percentage of the disenfranchised who are that sort of person is extremely small. It seems others are convinced that most if not all poor people are there due to being 'whiners', 'wailers', 'entitled', etc. etc. I am not.

 

i agree with this.

i also believe that (alot of) people who are rich or otherwise stable like to hold this view because it serves their ego better. i.e they are better off because they are better.

[quankanne]

I agree on both points: the number of people who feel they are entitled, but do nothing to help themselves is small. Unfortunately, it only takes one encounter to leave a person with a bad taste in his/her mouth. I believe that most people have what it takes to get where they want to go, but do not know how or are not able to tap into that potential. Once they figure it out, it's "Katie bar the door!" The negative aspect to achieving that success is that people can forget their struggles and begin claim a sense of entitlement, but one based on what newby describes …

[newbby]

i agree with this quank, many people forget their struggles once they are through them, yet whilst they had them had more empathy due to understanding the struggle, which shows that people often only empathise whilst they can identify or with what they can identify.

[EnigmaXOXO]

The negative aspect to achieving that success is that people can forget their struggles and begin claim a sense of entitlement, but one based on what newby describes …

 

Or…they do remember that struggle and become so empowered by their ability to conquer and overcome, that they just can't comprehend why other's aren't capable of doing the same.

 

I think (speaking ONLY for myself) that's where empathy minus sympathy comes in.

[lindya]

Or…they do remember that struggle and become so empowered by their ability to conquer and overcome, that they just can't comprehend why other's aren't capable of doing the same.

 

Well put. Also when people are relating how they triumphed against the odds, the emphasis is often on the hard graft they put in and the obstacles they were presented with...rather than on little bits and pieces of good fortune that came their way, or on friends whose support helped them to overcome those obstacles.

[Moose]

Or…they do remember that struggle and become so empowered by their ability to conquer and overcome, that they just can't comprehend why other's aren't capable of doing the same.

 

I think (speaking ONLY for myself) that's where empathy minus sympathy comes in.

Oh boy.....this is where some self examination is in order.

 

I never thought of it this way. This is really causing me to think damnit!....thanks E!

 

Momma always said, "there's always room to grow"...........

[SmoochieFace]

Or…they do remember that struggle and become so empowered by their ability to conquer and overcome, that they just can't comprehend why other's aren't capable of doing the same.

 

I believe this explains quite well why there are those who have that "if I can do it so can everyone else" mentality. Real self-centered to me.

[Moose]

I believe this explains quite well why there are those who have that "if I can do it so can everyone else" mentality. Real self-centered to me.

What would make you feel better about it? Is it self-centered to offer expierences, advice, and opinions on how to help others, "make it", or get past a hurdle?

 

You can't tell me that you'd rather have people clam up, not offer any help whatsoever, than to listen to wisdom.

 

I can see you complaining that noone has offered you sound advice if this is the case......

 

Disclaimer: (This is not an attack, these are valid questions)

[SmoochieFace]

What would make you feel better about it? Is it self-centered to offer expierences, advice, and opinions on how to help others, "make it", or get past a hurdle?

 

You can't tell me that you'd rather have people clam up, not offer any help whatsoever, than to listen to wisdom.

 

I can see you complaining that noone has offered you sound advice if this is the case......

 

Disclaimer: (This is not an attack, these are valid questions)

 

It is self-centered to think "if I can do it then everyone else can do it AND those who can't/won't do it are 'lazy', 'mad at the world', etc." Offering experiences, advice, and opinions is great as long as it is not done cloaked in judgment. Just the facts, hold the subjective judgments.

 

Of course I would rather listen to wisdom... as long as it's done without subjective judgments.

[lindya]

Of course I would rather listen to wisdom... as long as it's done without subjective judgments.

 

Wisdom comes from all different types of people, Smoochie. If you focus too much on the aspects of the person that you can't relate to, then you miss all sorts of learning opportunities.

[newbby]

Well put. Also when people are relating how they triumphed against the odds, the emphasis is often on the hard graft they put in and the obstacles they were presented with...rather than on little bits and pieces of good fortune that came their way, or on friends whose support helped them to overcome those obstacles.

 

i think this is often true

[newbby]

Wisdom comes from all different types of people, Smoochie. If you focus too much on the aspects of the person that you can't relate to, then you miss all sorts of learning opportunities.

 

this is true but the person also has to be able to relate to the advice offered. if the advice is full of judgement, then where is the advice giver coming from? it is hard to truly give compassionate and wise advice when you are judging.

[Moose]

So, if I understand this correctly, if a person says to you:

 

"I just had to get off my lazy ass and get busy with it", or, "I had to admit to myself that what I was or wasn't doing wasn't cutting it", or even, "I saw that my brother in law got off his ass and did it, so I did"....

 

you'd more likely listen than hearing it this way:

 

"You need to get off your ass and get to work", "you need to realize what you're doing isn't cutting it", or even, "your brother in law did it, you can too"......

 

If this is the case, does everything like this come across to you as judgemental?

 

Isn't there a way you can alter your way of thinking?

 

For example, whenever someone sounds judgemental, can you ask yourself, "does this person want to cause me harm"?

 

Enlighten me a bit.....

[newbby]

the first example sounds as though you believe the persons experience is identical to your own

the second sounds as though you have no understanding of the persons situation at all

therefore it is unlikely that anybody is going to have much confidence in anything you are saying.

[Outcast]

I just had to get off my lazy ass and get busy with it

 

BRRRAAAAAAATTTT Sorry, you fail the mentors' competence test. Now let's rephrase:

 

"I decided that I had to take my own fate into my hands so I spent a week exploring the area to see which types of machinery needed to be made. My particular talent is mechanical engineering so I tried to sort out where I could use my skills to fill a niche that wasn't filled'...etc. and tell your story.

 

I realize you're very proud of pulling yourself out of your butt and getting going, but the way you word your advice in line 1 is completely unhelpful.

 

For example, whenever someone sounds judgemental, can you ask yourself, "does this person want to cause me harm"?

 

Or perhaps whenever someone needs advice, you can ask yourself 'do I need to state my superiority over him in order to get my point across? Will my bragging on myself be helpful or off-putting? Can I not just tell my story without adding judgmental language?"

[quankanne]

I believe this explains quite well why there are those who have that "if I can do it so can everyone else" mentality. Real self-centered to me. …

It is self-centered to think "if I can do it then everyone else can do it AND those who can't/won't do it are 'lazy', 'mad at the world', etc." Offering experiences, advice, and opinions is great as long as it is not done cloaked in judgment. Just the facts, hold the subjective judgments.

 

and your statement sounds like your mind is permanently sealed against edification as from another perspective and you're displaying a self-centeredness in this regard.

 

it's entirely possible that by drawing from my own experiences and believing in someone's potential, I'm in essence being their biggest cheerleader (a form of empathy, if you will). I'm sharp enough to discern whether someone is looking for a handout or might find something valuable in what I might share with them.

 

the way you word your advice in line 1 is completely unhelpful.

 

which is why he phrased it the way he had among the examples he's given, so that he fully understands the difference in how that message is presented.

 

… whenever someone sounds judgemental …

 

I sift through what they're saying to find their actual message. Because sometimes people are quick to take offense at what they perceive to be said as to what that actual message. There are some prime examples of it in this post, where points are being made, but posters are not discerning the message. Gah!

[Outcast]

It is self-centered to think "if I can do it then everyone else can do it AND those who can't/won't do it are 'lazy', 'mad at the world', etc."

 

Completely agree.

 

and your statement sounds like your mind is permanently sealed against edification as from another perspective and you're displaying a self-centeredness in this regard.

 

Not at all. It's about the attitude behind the 'advice' being given. People who are harbouring the subtext that they're talking to a 'whiner' or someone who 'refuses to get off his butt' are wrong if they think that the censure doesn't seep into the so-called 'advice'. And, really, it's disingenuous to offer judgement pretending it's advice.

[EnigmaXOXO]

Not at all. It's about the attitude behind the 'advice' being given. People who are harbouring the subtext that they're talking to a 'whiner' or someone who 'refuses to get off his butt' are wrong if they think that the censure doesn't seep into the so-called 'advice'. And, really, it's disingenuous to offer judgement pretending it's advice.

 

Now we're talking "advice" vs. "opinion."

 

I think it's difficult for anyone to share advice without having formed some kind of 'opinion'. While it may seem idealistic (even self-centered to some) for those who have "gotten off their butts" to expect that everyone should be capable of doing the same … aren't you, yourself, also being a bit idealist and self-centered to expect that everyone should be capable of expressing themselves the same way you do … or in a way that makes you feel more comfortable?

[Outcast]

aren't you, yourself, also being a bit idealist

 

Who but an inveterate idealist would start a thread about empathy asking why it's not more common?

 

to expect that everyone should be capable of expressing themselves the same way you do

 

Well when it comes to mentoring, I don't think it's 'expressing themselves the way I do' so much as following general rules of communication when trying to teach people.

 

I'm pretty sure they don't suggest to teachers in training to tell people to 'get off your lazy butts'. 'Tough love' is a strategy, yes, but only when used on certain candidates. The hard line doesn't suit all people and is damaging to some. And this is where empathy comes in. Yes, I'm an idealist in hoping people will be more empathic towards each other, and in particular in not being hard on people who are already down. And my confusion about why this doesn't appeal to people naturally is the impetus for starting the thread.

 

And in terms of 'if I can do it, you can', it's the tone that counts. Oprah says it and it makes sense, but what's particularly helpful is that she admits she's had help and mentors along the way. She doesn't pretend that all her success was due only to her. OTOH, if Trump says 'if I can do it, so can you' it rings a little less true since he started out with money and it's much easier to grow an existing pile of bucks than to start from zip.

 

or in a way that makes you feel more comfortable?

 

Doesn't have to do with me. Has to do with what I've learned through training , observation, and mentoring by others about which methods work and which don't.

[Craig]

Humans have become adept at quickly sizing up a situation for the purpose of survival, i.e. looking out for #1. To attempt to understand another person takes effort and time that could be invested in survival. I’d guess that the older parts of our brains urge us to think survival and procreation. Grossly generalizing the world (and other people) into several categories allows humans to get on with survival and procreating.

 

Life isn’t fair and there is no justice. Some people will have empathy for others, some will not. Some have selective empathy, e.g. over eating while watching a show on famine in Africa but worried that the neighborhood ferile cat isn’t going to like the particular brand of cat food they bought for it.

 

I think it is impossible that all people will try to see things from other’s perspectives before they condemn.

 

I do think it is possible that more and more people can venture into the unknown realm of empathy over time but don’t hold your breath. Empathy for some, I’d guess, requires the attainment of a certain individually unique amount of security in different things, the ability and the willingness to think and the necessary hardware (brain structures) to be capable of having empathy.

[quankanne]

Not at all. It's about the attitude behind the 'advice' being given. People who are harbouring the subtext that they're talking to a 'whiner' or someone who 'refuses to get off his butt' are wrong if they think that the censure doesn't seep into the so-called 'advice'. And, really, it's disingenuous to offer judgement pretending it's advice.

 

 

once again you've assumed that I am looking at every situation equally, i.e., that all who don't succeed are whiners and bellyachers. I've never believed that and I hope to God I've not implied or insinuated that! Does censure seep into the conversation? Only if I feel like I'm bashing my head against the wall trying to get my point across (like now) or when someone asks for something (advice, help) with the expectation that I"M the one responsible for effecting change in HIS or HER life, that there is no personal sweat equity involved on his/her behalf. I'll share with you my thoughts, my feelings, my opinions when asked, but ain't no way in hell am I going to do what you should be doing for yourself unless you are mentally or physically incapacitated and need more than just advice. If I can do, I hope to inspire you to feel that you have the potential to accomplish your goals as well. ¿Entiendes?

[Outcast]

once again you've assumed that I

 

I thought we were discussing generalities here. At least I am. English needs the equivalent of a 'you impersonal' pronoun.

[Craig]

I thought we were discussing generalities here. At least I am. English needs the equivalent of a 'you impersonal' pronoun.

One might think that a generic pronoun would suffice.

[ButtonPusher]

There's a tv show called I think "30 days", that was on recently where I live. Its an american show, so maybe you have all heard about it or seen it. Its very interesting as it places people who have preconcieved ideas and prejudices against certain groups in society, into the "shoes" of someone in that position. The effects that doing this has on these people suggests that empathy is related to distance, or rather how removed someone is from a particular situation or part of society. How close you are to someone who is poor for example. Or if you have any relationship with a gay person (not a sexual relationship).

 

I think that, actually in deference to a certain dumb thread recently, IMHO I think that once someone has experienced first hand something they will undoubtedly become more empathetic towards other people in that situation. Actually, to be more accurate I think this is true for most people but not all. I think that there will always be a minority that are incapable of empathy towards certain people.