Is empathy unachievable?

[Outcast]

I admit I'm prejudiced against people who are prejudiced and bigoted when it comes to bigots. I do have a code of ethics which is not exactly unique: people shouldn't hurt people.

 

I reserve my greatest loathing for hypocrisy - I'd prefer the bigot who says ' I just dont' like it that black people are a different colour' than to cover his real feelings with supposed justifications. The former is just stupidity - understandable if not pleasant. The latter is an attempt to hide one's true motivations. Similarly, Bush and Iraq. If he had just said 'I plan to take over the Middle East to steal its oil and I don't care who gets killed in the process', at least he'd be an honest brute. It's the lies on top of it that really make me puke.

[Apex]

I'd prefer the bigot who says ' I just dont' like it that black people are a different colour' than to cover his real feelings with supposed justifications.

The white supremacist thinks he is protecting the white race, and you think you are protecting minorities. That is how the two of you justify your actions.

If he had just said 'I plan to take over the Middle East to steal its oil and I don't care who gets killed in the process', at least he'd be an honest brute. It's the lies on top of it that really make me puke.

If they lied by saying they found WMD, people like you wouldn’t have too much to complain about.

[Outcast]

That is how the two of you justify your actions.

 

What 'actions' am I justifying? I'm not out beating people up. I'm not trying to exclude them from their rights. I'm not discriminating against them. And I'm not killing anybody. You can be a bigot all you like so long as you keep it to thought and word and don't act it out. Bush can hate Saddam, all Iraqis, and everyone on the planet who isn't him so long as he keeps it inside his house.

 

If they lied by saying they found WMD, people like you wouldn’t have too much to complain about.

 

That wouldn't help since there are a bunch more lies they also told to justify this and they still have killed thousands of innocent people. And no, even if they found WMD, there is no evidence that Saddam was anywhere near using them. There are plenty of countries that have WMD.

[newbby]

like america

[Touche]

Oh, and YOUR country doesn't?

[Apex]

And no, even if they found WMD, there is no evidence that Saddam was anywhere near using them. There are plenty of countries that have WMD.

Great. A former hitman wouldn’t use a nuke because his conscience would get in the way.

I'm not out beating people up. I'm not trying to exclude them from their rights. I'm not discriminating against them. And I'm not killing anybody.

I’m sure the white supremacist would say the same thing about black people. They are trying to preserve the white race.

[Outcast]

A former hitman wouldn’t use a nuke because his conscience would get in the way.

 

No, because even lunatic dictators understand that to use a nuke or any WMD would mean you and everything in your nation would be pulverized immediately. Nobody's that stupid.

 

I’m sure the white supremacist would say the same thing about black people. They are trying to preserve the white race.

 

Um. You said that twice. Again, I'm not beating people up, urging discrimination, etc. My other point was they may SAY that but I don't buy it.

 

Anyway we are far from the subject of empathy here. Politics belong in the politics thread.

[Touche]

Nobody's that stupid

 

You REALLY believe that? So what are the suicide bombers? Geniuses?

 

Didn't Hitler destroy Germany? All throughout history lunatics have not thought twice about destroying their own people. So YES, people CAN be (and ARE) that stupid.

[Outcast]

You REALLY believe that? So what are the suicide bombers? Geniuses?

 

They are obsessed.

 

Didn't Hitler destroy Germany?

 

But not himself until later. And he planned to build the Uber nation, remember.

 

All throughout history lunatics have not thought twice about destroying their own people.

 

We're talking destroying the infrastructure of the entire nation. He may not care about people but he'd want the palaces, the goodies. And the people you're talking about were very good at self-preservation. Even Saddam, who said he'd go down fighting, decided he wanted to live and gave up quietly.

 

No way he was going to wait for nuclear or other WMD retaliation. It's called mutual assured destruction or deterrence. Well known strategy in world affairs. The difference here is that Iraq would've been wiped off the map but he could never have had enough WMD to wipe out the entire USA or even a significant part of it. He couldn't possibly win and live to enjoy his spoils.

[Touche]

Of course they're obsessed. And so is Saddam. They're obsessed and delusional. They don't think that their own actions will bring about their own demise. They have delusions of grandeur.

 

And as far as Saddam "giving up quietly", please, the man didn't have any other choice! He didn't stand a chance in hell!

 

As for your last statement. Interesting except for one thing. You're trying to ascribe logic and sanity to insane and illogical madmen! "Well known strategies in world affairs" don't apply to them. They have delusions of grandeur, remember? They have an air of invincibility to them.

 

You made the point yourself. Hitler planned on buidling an Uber nation. He certainly didn't think that what he was doing was going to cause his OWN destruction (self-inflicted or otherwise.)

[Outcast]

OK, this is the last political comment I'll answer on this thread. You want to continue, we can do it in Politics.

 

That someone is a megalomaniac doesn't mean he's completely irrational. In fact, he will be extremely rational, probably quite intelligent, and very very shrewd.

 

It's facile to deem these people insane; in my estimation there's some missing screws in anyone who is capable of damaging other humans but that doesn't mean they can't function exceedingly well in life.

 

Hitler was a master of oration, in winning support, in manipulating people. He couldn't have wangled his way to the top if he wasn't. Doesn't mean he should be admired because he used his intellect to do evil but it's a huge mistake to discount these people as drooling nutjobs. In fact, it's probably because they looked and behaved so normally that they were able to reach the positions they reached.

[Touche]

[it's facile to deem these people insane/QUOTE] Facile maybe...but that still doesn't make it untrue.

 

And by the way, Hitler didn't just use manipulation and oration to "wangle" his way to the top...have you forgotten that he also used violence and intimidation? Ever heard of the Brown Shirts?

 

And do you really think that these kinds of people function "exceedingly well in life?" I guess that depends on your definition of "exceedingly well." But if you really probe deeper into these people's lives, you will find that they function/ed in a very marginal way.

 

Do you have empathy for those people?

[Outcast]

I understand that they could only see a certain distance. I understand that they believed in something illogical and irrational with all their hearts. I think people like this are seriously unwell.

 

I don't believe in evil; I believe in sickness and that some forms of sickness can lead people to perform evil acts because their thinking patterns are seriously disturbed.

 

Can I put myself in their places? Not to the extent that I understand their illness, but to the extent that I get a tiny taste of how it is to have my thinking get skewed by my biology every month, to the extent that I see how depression so easily makes friends think illogically, to the extent that I have been in the company of schizophrenics and watched them as they thought bizarre things to be perfectly normal, I understand that the brain is very fragile.

[newbby]

i am not going to get into politics, because i dont really understand them, but, just wanted to say, that was a very compassionate, EMPATHETIC post outcast.

[lindya]

I think empathy does involve looking for reasons underlying apparently insane behaviour. With regard to suicide bombers, I think it's vital that those in power make concerted effort to understand what factors combine to create a climate where people would take such drastic action. It's not unpatriotic to try to understand the mind of a suicide bomber beyond simply saying "he/she is mad/brainwashed".

 

I've posted the article below before, but I think it bears another posting. Like most conflicts, all the parties to this conflict bear some responsibility for figuring out what has gone wrong, why - and how it can be fixed. I think that takes a very strong combination of objectivity and empathy...which is nicely demonstrated in this article I think. The process of resolving that conflict is, unfortunately, complicated by the vested interests of those in power.

 

http://www.policyreview.org/jun04/mazarr_print.html

[Apex]

I don't believe in evil; I believe in sickness and that some forms of sickness can lead people to perform evil acts because their thinking patterns are seriously disturbed.

I think the only cure for serial killers is death.

Can I put myself in their places? Not to the extent that I understand their illness, but to the extent that I get a tiny taste of how it is to have my thinking get skewed by my biology every month, to the extent that I see how depression so easily makes friends think illogically, to the extent that I have been in the company of schizophrenics and watched them as they thought bizarre things to be perfectly normal, I understand that the brain is very fragile.

We have someone who thinks empathy for Bush is funny, but is willing to excuse sociopaths.

Do you want people like that operating heavy machinery let alone nuclear and biological weapons?

 

Wasn’t the SS trying to eliminate the Jewish threat?

[Apex]

i am not going to get into politics, because i dont really understand them, but, just wanted to say, that was a very compassionate, EMPATHETIC post outcast.

You don’t know politics but you also seem to be part of the Bush bashing bandwagon. Where is your empathy?

[Touche]

Thank you Apex! A voice of reason! I agree with you 100%!

[SmoochieFace]

Where is your empathy?

 

Where's Bush's empathy?

[Outcast]

OK, Apex and Touche, I know you both from before and we've had these political debates previously. Not continuing them on this thread.

[Apex]

OK, Apex and Touche, I know you both from before and we've had these political debates previously. Not continuing them on this thread.

I am actually applying this thread to you. I’m trying to illustrate some parallels between you and the people you are criticizing and belittling. I think you are no different from them.

[Outcast]

Apex, I know you and I know your style of debate. You use words like 'slander' and 'belittling' out of context and resort to personal attack often. I'm not going there.

[newbby]

the ideal and the thing to strive for is empathy for the whole world, all of its people, animals, and nature. love for ourselves and world peace. i dont like violence and i dont like wars. what hurts one, hurts the whole world. you cannot isolate incidences where there is a history of suffering. i believe in holistic medicine and holistic healing, that also includes my political views.

how can anybody argue with world peace?

[Outcast]

how can anybody argue with world peace?

 

Because to have the requisite empathy for the world and its creatures, one needs detachment - or vice versa. World peace is billions of individual decisions to not escalate displeasure into anger writ large. But we are creatures of instinct and, when we are stressed, the instinct to fight overcomes the rational decision to avoid fights.

 

Modern living is far too stressful; stress triggers the adrenaline responses - and we are unable to detach because instinct prevails.

[newbby]

yes, unless we find a cure for modern living. such as regular meditation, etc