Author Outcast Posted December 8, 2005 Author Share Posted December 8, 2005 One might think that a generic pronoun would suffice. Oh pick nits, whydontcha? Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 the optimist in me believes that true empathy is achievable but the realist in me thinks that few people will ever reach that state of awareness. Link to post Share on other sites
ReluctantRomeo Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 the optimist in me believes that true empathy is achievable but the realist in me thinks that few people will ever reach that state of awareness. The empath in me feels your concern Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 BRRRAAAAAAATTTT Sorry, you fail the mentors' competence test. Now let's rephrase:"I decided that I had to take my own fate into my hands so I spent a week exploring the area to see which types of machinery needed to be made. My particular talent is mechanical engineering so I tried to sort out where I could use my skills to fill a niche that wasn't filled'...etc. and tell your story. -I'm not using my personal expierence here. Those were examples I used to try and get a feel for how someone prefers an idea, thought, or opinion presented to them. It seems like a no win situation with a lot of people, even here on LS. I realize you're very proud of pulling yourself out of your butt and getting going, but the way you word your advice in line 1 is completely unhelpful. -Oh please! I don't walk around expecting people to get on their knee and kiss my ring. Like I said, those were examples, not something I pulled from my personal life. Or perhaps whenever someone needs advice, you can ask yourself 'do I need to state my superiority over him in order to get my point across? Will my bragging on myself be helpful or off-putting? Can I not just tell my story without adding judgmental language?" -Again, you say this as if this is a habit of mine. Although, I will take it as your opinion on what I asked. Apparently people who act like the first set of examples in my post come off extremely judgemental, (naturally), while the second set of examples are a little more tolerable. Even so, according to you, I need to write or explain a whole paragraph BEFORE I make a point....so neither set of examples were totally acceptable to you..... Link to post Share on other sites
a4a Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Empathy for those that are judgemental? Is that possible? a4a Link to post Share on other sites
ReluctantRomeo Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Empathy for those that are judgemental? Is that possible? Well, the alternative is judging them for being judgemental Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Empathy for those that are judgemental? Is that possible? a4a i was thinking this same thing myself. Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Well, the alternative is judging them for being judgemental Right on the nose!!! Link to post Share on other sites
lindya Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 I think it's perfectly possible to feel empathy for someone who takes a judgemental approach. After all, the judgemental aspects are only part of that person..there are bound to be other more attractive qualities. I would probably tend to demonstrate less empathy towards them though, if I thought it was liable to make them uncomfortable. In the same way that if someone didn't seem keen on physical contact, I would avoid hugging them. Link to post Share on other sites
a4a Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Is it harder to have empathy for people that are or project a stronger personality than yourself? How much does society play a role in making empathy acceptable or not? Such as you may feel it for a victim of a drunk driver but not for the drunk driver because it would be deemed incorrect to have empathy for the driver? Why is more empathy felt toward children in general over adults? a4a Link to post Share on other sites
SmoochieFace Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Why is more empathy felt toward children in general over adults? Adults are *expected* to *know* how to do everything whereas children are in the process of learning how to do everything. A simplistic answer but I'm thinking simplistically these days... Link to post Share on other sites
a4a Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Adults are *expected* to *know* how to do everything whereas children are in the process of learning how to do everything. A simplistic answer but I'm thinking simplistically these days... Well I see that point but say an adult has cancer and a child has cancer I see more people showing more empathy towards the child. a4a Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 because children havent been in the world long enough to be hardened and desensitized to things. Link to post Share on other sites
a4a Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 But would not the adult being in the world for a longer time not miss more (if lets say both were terminal patients) possible loss of spouse, children, friends, accomplishments? Again you could bring in a senior citizen into this ..... which little empathy compared to the others would be shown. I would think? Is society telling us who we should have more empathy for in these cases? Is it forced on us so to speak? a4a Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaXOXO Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Is it harder to have empathy for people that are or project a stronger personality than yourself? I think if one is intimidated or feels over-powered by confidence and self-assertion, then yes. Particularly if it's a personal characteristic they do not possess and therefore can not relate to. But on the flip-side of that, it would be difficult for someone with a stronger personality to relate to someone who was meek and timid. It's easier, however, to feel sorry (or sympathetic) towards those who are unable to stand up for themselves. It isn't so easy to muster up any pity for the person who seems well enough equipped to handle their own. Why is more empathy felt toward children in general over adults? Maybe for the same reason (???) How much does society play a role in making empathy acceptable or not? Such as you may feel it for a victim of a drunk driver but not for the drunk driver because it would be deemed incorrect to have empathy for the driver? I'm at a loss on the societal role. Better to leave that one to the intellects. But for me, while I may feel empathetic towards the situation between both victim and drunk driver, it's difficult to feel sympathy for the driver who didn't seem concerned enough (or empathetic enough) towards others before getting behind the wheel of that car. While understanding that the driver's judgment may have been impaired, it's easier to connect more to the victim who was in no way responsible for the consequences they suffered at the hands of another. For me, it's those who are 'victimized' that inspire sympathy beyond empathy. Not the driver, who may attempt to play victim by suing the bar tender for not cutting him off. Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 It's easier, however, to feel sorry (or sympathetic) towards those who are unable to stand up for themselves. It isn't so easy to muster up any pity for the person who seems well enough equipped to handle their own. does anybody really want or need pity? i think empathy and pity are two different things. in pity there is still a judgement of sorts. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaXOXO Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 i think empathy and pity are two different things. They are. Which is why I posted that long-winded response trying to explain the difference. (banging head on keyboard) Link to post Share on other sites
Author Outcast Posted December 8, 2005 Author Share Posted December 8, 2005 Empathy for those that are judgemental? Yes. In my experience, judgement comes from inability to empathize (now try to climb out of that Godian knot ). I think many people who are not empathic are not so because of their own issues. If you have too much going on inside, you by necessity focus on you and your own needs. I think the rest are unthinking - like the story Wayne Dyer tells of the man on the subway with the naughty kids. The passengers got angrier and angrier because the man was staring out the window rather than controlling his kids. Finally one went over and told the man off. The man, roused from his thoughts, said that they were just on their way back from the hospital where their mother had just died. And this is the crux of one of my big issues - that people assume something of others and condemn rather than finding out why someone is behaving a certain way. In this story, the passengers all assumed the man was just too lazy to bother taking care of his kids and were shamed to find out the truth. I understand that it's a difficult intellectual exercise to stop oneself from making assumptions about others and maybe it's beyond some people to accomplish. I have empathy for people who are unable to be empathic if they lack the intellectual ability to do so - but how many people are unable to and how many are simply unwilling? How much does society play a role in making empathy acceptable or not? A society that blames victims and insists that 'personal responsibility' is THE standard to judge by is not empathic at all. The fact is that a person who has problems is not equipped to function the way people who are healthier can. And a lot of people have problems. Such as you may feel it for a victim of a drunk driver but not for the drunk driver because it would be deemed incorrect to have empathy for the driver? Addiction is an illness. If an alcoholic is arrested and charged but keeps getting his vehicle or driver's licence back, society is complicit in what happens. But this emphasis on 'personal responsibility' rejects the concept of addiction as illness. Too, society still celebrates drinking and even drunkenness as acceptable behaviours - we see it on LS often. There isn't public censure for being drunk which might prevail upon people who aren't alcoholics. So in having no empathy for drunken drivers, society rejects its own role in fostering or abetting the crime - and casts blame on the individual. Many people who drink do so to self-medicate mental ailments but society can't be bothered diagnosing or treating the underlying ailments. Why is more empathy felt toward children in general over adults? Because it's assumed they hurt more because they're helpless. But adults who were hurt as children often haven't healed at all and deserve every bit as much empathy. The adult who was abused severely as a child to the point where he's been brain-damaged and who then turns to violent crime is executed. Society failed to rescue him, failed to diagnose his illness, and then punished him for things he had no control over. And the bloodthirsty hounds outside the jail celebrate the death of a wounded soul. Is society telling us who we should have more empathy for in these cases? Yes because society doesn't want to spend the money or time it would take to diagnose and heal the troubled people who end up in jails, commit crimes, etc. despite the considerable literature which has proven that the majority of prisoners suffer from mental illnesses, learning disorders, or both. So they are disposable humans; too much trouble to help so we toss them on the trashbin and rather than believe they could be saved, condemn them as evil so we can allow ourselves to hate them rather than take responsibility for ignoring them when they needed us. Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 They are. Which is why I posted that long-winded response trying to explain the difference. (banging head on keyboard) can you empathise with my stupidity:laugh: in my defense you did not point this out until the bottom of your post, by that time i was bored and tuned out. Link to post Share on other sites
Art_Critic Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 can you empathise with my stupidity? or is it more a matter of pity? It depends on the definition of stupidity.. Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 It depends on the definition of stupidity.. i hate it when people respond to my posts before i edit them. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaXOXO Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 http://www.theultimatefirehouse.com/empathy.htm It's not a commercial link, so I hope it's permitted. Link to post Share on other sites
newbby Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 interesting link. yes i think empathy requires a kind of faith in people. thats where the lack of judgement also comes in. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Outcast Posted December 8, 2005 Author Share Posted December 8, 2005 Thanks, Enigma! Love the bit about 'I show Empathy' with 'Confront' as part of the role I find people tend to get a little testy when confronted requires a kind of faith in people We maybe have the crux of it right there. We know there is Hobbes' version of humanity and then there's Locke's. I think if you believe in Hobbes, then you act towards people accordingly. If you believe Locke, you act accordingly. Sadly, Hobbes seems to have a greater following. Me, I'm with Anne Frank: Despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Outcast Posted December 8, 2005 Author Share Posted December 8, 2005 And the 'not following through' thread is a perfect example of everything I've said. Link to post Share on other sites
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