women ending marriages

[Moose]

hee - I think the infamous internet misunderstanding strikes again. Moose, I think she was imitating the sound of a buzzer, not calling you a name.

 

There really ought to be an icon for that - except, like lindya said in another thread about a crying icon, we'd all get sick of the sight of it...

OH!! My bad!!

[seachange]

tee hee - i was just giggling because "brat" isn't the sort of name-calling that usually takes place on here...but as name-calling goes, i thought it was kind of cute. i call my friends "brat" when they're bein' sassy.

[Trimmer]

I hate to inject mathematical logic into this enjoyable festival of breaking plates and flying ashtrays, but...

 

Two people make vows in front of each other, and God too, (if you believe in Him), it takes 2 to make or break a marriage.

 

I agree totally that it requires 2 to make a marriage. However, if you accept that, it follows that the absence of either one can break the marriage.

 

And I'm not talking about my situation or your situation, or making any comments about what "all women" or "all men" do. I'm just calling you to task for a statement that I don't believe is accurate, which you are using to support your assertion that "everyone needs to realize, there isn't an innocent party in this."

 

Do I interpret your statements to mean that there is no acceptable reason to divorce? If your spouse 'goes off' then you are responsible before God (if you believe in Him, as you put it) to stay, waiting for the crisis, the illness, the overdose, the crash, for the coconut to fall on your spouse's head, so they will wake up and see the error of their ways and come back? How far are you obliged to go with that? Through any situation, forever? Do you stay through emotional abuse? Physical abuse? Are bruises OK, but drawing blood is not? Is there a dividing line where it finally gets "bad enough" that it's finally justified to get out? Who gets to draw that line for someone else? Any of us?

 

And who is entitled to sit outside such a situation and pass judgement on what someone else "should have done"? Any of us?

[reader]

No one can judge. No one knows what each situation is like.

 

Moose, I'm glad it worked out for you, but in my experience, you are the exception, not the rule...

 

And yes, I thought you were being called a brat too.

[Moose]

I agree totally that it requires 2 to make a marriage. However, if you accept that, it follows that the absence of either one can break the marriage?

Examine the reasons behind the, "absence", and I believe you'll find the other partner usually has something to do with it. I'd venture to say, 100% of the time.

I'm just calling you to task for a statement that I don't believe is accurate, which you are using to support your assertion that "everyone needs to realize, there isn't an innocent party in this."

It's ok to disagree. I happen to think that in all marriages, both parties need to give it their all. If one is lacking, that doesn't excuse the other from their responsibility to maintain 100% focus on that marraige.

Do I interpret your statements to mean that there is no acceptable reason to divorce? If your spouse 'goes off' then you are responsible before God (if you believe in Him, as you put it) to stay, waiting for the crisis, the illness, the overdose, the crash, for the coconut to fall on your spouse's head, so they will wake up and see the error of their ways and come back?

That's correct. This is what I believe. Unless your spouse in unfaithfull, or physically abuses you, you have no grounds for divorce.

How far are you obliged to go with that?

Most vow until death. You never hear, "I promise these things as long as I feel like it".....Do you not believe in keeping your vows?

Through any situation, forever?

I've mentioned before that we are all weak vessels. We aren't super human, none of us. Pixie did her absolute best, and went as far as she possibly could. Yes, I believe it'll be something she'll have to answer to God for, but like I said, as our Creator, He understands Human nature far better than ANY of us. AND, He loves us unconditionally. SO, maybe Pixie's fixtures in her eternal home will be made of Silver instead of Gold.

And who is entitled to sit outside such a situation and pass judgement on what someone else "should have done"? Any of us?

Noone is judging anyone. We have different opinions on how certain situations should've been handled. That doesn't make anyone any less, or greater than any one else.

[Outcast]

and I believe you'll find the other partner usually has something to do with it.

 

So your wife made you an alcoholic, right, Moose?

 

 

Isn't part of AA accepting responsibility for your actions?

[Trimmer]

You'll admit, there's a pretty fine line between opinions on how someone else's situation "should have been handled" and judgements, wouldn't you say?

 

I note that while you addressed my points line by line, you skipped the emotional/physical abuse section.... Is there a line there somewhere? Do you toss them in jail, but then stay married to them?

 

And then I will ask for your advice on my own situation. Wife had an A 10 years ago; I stood by her. Had kids, apparently happy. Recently she's become unhappy. I accept my part in it, although I maintain I was unaware of it until it was "too late" for her. I am willing to bite off my arm to make it work, but there's no convincing her, it's just "too late."

 

Even as I was a good provider, and an honorable father and husband, I accept my part - even guilt, if you will - in the original problem of her unhappiness, and my failing to recognize it, but now I would do anything to atone for it and make the marriage work. Should I fight her? Refuse to cooperate in the divorce, with the belief that my faith will help guide her back to me? Honestly, it is clear that she would be unreceptive to this. Since she has been unambiguously clear that she is leaving, do I ever get to decide that I am justified in moving on? Or am I guilty of "giving up", of forsaking my vow, even though I would have done anything, once I knew of her unhappiness? I'm not claiming I'm innocent, but I'm interested, as a thought experiment, in what I could do that would fit your views?

 

Respectfully, - T

[Moose]

So your wife made you an alcoholic, right, Moose?

No, she didn't. But her constant put downs, insults, and total lack of affection certainly made it easier for me look for something else.

You'll admit, there's a pretty fine line between opinions on how someone else's situation "should have been handled" and judgements, wouldn't you say?

The same can be said about any opinion. I agree.

I note that while you addressed my points line by line, you skipped the emotional/physical abuse section.... Is there a line there somewhere? Do you toss them in jail, but then stay married to them?

I didn't skip it. I mentioned physical abuse. Noone should stay in a physically abusive relationship. Even though Jesus Himself said only in the case of infidelity should you divorce.

 

Mrs. Moose has clobbered me a few times, thrown things at me, and made a few direct hits.....but in my case, I deserved it. Am I going to divorce her over it? Come on.....

 

She's emotionally abused me as well. Tried manipulation, other tactics that messed with my mind. I hung in there, and I'm glad I did. She no longer resorts to those methods. We have an open line of communication that wasn't there before.

Should I fight her? Refuse to cooperate in the divorce, with the belief that my faith will help guide her back to me?

No you shoudn't. Give her what she wants. She's taking the responsiblity for her own actions. She doesn't deserve you and your willingness to make it work. I think she realizes this.

Since she has been unambiguously clear that she is leaving, do I ever get to decide that I am justified in moving on?

You were made justified the minute she committed adultry. It doesn't matter if it indeed was you who drove her to it. She's accepting the consequences of her actions.

Or am I guilty of "giving up", of forsaking my vow, even though I would have done anything, once I knew of her unhappiness?

You may be guilty of neglect in one way shape or form, but that's it. You shouldn't be held accountable for what your wife has done. If you used the tradional vows in your marriage, I don't remember anywhere where you are made to promise her happiness 24/7.

I'm not claiming I'm innocent, but I'm interested, as a thought experiment, in what I could do that would fit your views?

Give her what she wants. As a last ditch effort, see if she'd agree to a trial seperation. Allow her to see what life would be like as a divorcee......I hope you get what you want, you sound like a reasonable man who wants the best for his family.

[brngme2life76]

Well in my case I did not have another man nor did the exH have a woman when he decided to leave me. We were emotionally drained and had no communication at all for a long time. We just drifted apart without the help of affairs.

 

I met my current boyfriend after he left me. I was not looking for a relationship at all, I could not even imagine at the time that I was going to be in another relationship. BOOM!! He came into my life and changed it.

 

My exH is now dating too, but after he found out I was!! It was hard for me to accept this, but I was doing the same thing. We are actually giving each other advice on how to date and becomeing friends for our kids sake and for ours.

 

I do not believe that when a spouse leaves it has to be about having someone else. It could also be just drifting apart and falling out of love. I really hope I made sense, I am so tired right now I cant see the screen clearly, HAHA!!

[Becoming]

I'd simply like to go on record to assert that not all Christians think like Moose and that the reason why we have so few words of Jesus in the Bible may be because he listened more than he spoke and related to people who were suffering with compassion, not judgment.

 

When he did speak, seems he was most often talking about God's Kingdom way of life characterized by God's intentions of shalom (=peace, justice, respect, harmony, wholeness) for all people. When Jesus judged others it was because they were imposing religious laws that actually mitigated against shalom by excluding everyone who didn't fit their understanding of who's in and who's out. Indeed, Jesus often depicted God's kingdom in such a way that those who smugly thought they were in were excluded because they self-righteously excluded those who were poor, sick, and outcast.

 

Moose, Brother, you mean well, but how dare you presume to know the mind of God and pass judgment on a fellow suffering human being out of ignorance. Learn your tradition instead of swallowing a bunch of crap from televangelist demagogues and ignorant preachers. Then your witness will be one of love like Jesus' and not judgment like John the Baptist's (compare the preaching of the two and you'll see the difference).

[Moose]

Moose, Brother, you mean well, but how dare you presume to know the mind of God and pass judgment on a fellow suffering human being out of ignorance. Learn your tradition instead of swallowing a bunch of crap from televangelist demagogues and ignorant preachers. Then your witness will be one of love like Jesus' and not judgment like John the Baptist's (compare the preaching of the two and you'll see the difference).

Thanks, but you'll notice in all my posts that I put, "my opinion", "I think", "I believe"......these are my thoughts and opinions, I'm not claiming to know the mind of God. I am claiming what I found to be truth, based on His words.

 

I've never past judgement on here. I have stated my opinion. That's it.

 

But thank you for your attempt at edification.

[Mz. Pixie]

I take offense to someone saying that I made him want to be absent from the home.

 

He was selfish. He enjoyed these activities and me asking him to cut back a bit to spend time with me and the kids only resulted in pouting and anger.

 

When I was pregnant with our last child I got some bad test results and was told I'd have to come in Monday for a amnio. I was terrified because something might be wrong with the baby. I called him- I was at work, he was fishing. I told him what the doctor said and he said, "You have GOT to be kidding me." Like he was too busy to be bothered with that. You know what? He never came home. He stayed gone the entire weekend and I was at home with a five year old, terrified, crying and pregnant.

 

He wanted to do what he wanted to do. He wanted to fish or hunt or play golf all weekend every weekend without any responsibility. He wanted to spend most of our disposable income on things like that. He never cared if the kids had clothes or shoes, only if he had whatever kind of hunting or fishing equipment he wanted.

 

I certainly know that I will have to answer to God for what I did. What I believe is that Jesus has already paid the price of my sin, just like he did for everyone else, so my slate is clean.

 

I refuse to believe that this one thing that I've done wrong in my life outweighs all the good things that I've done.

[Becoming]

I've never past judgement on here. I have stated my opinion.

 

So I guess people telling you they feel judged unfairly doesn't register? Because that's what I see, and it disturbs me that the gospel is being misrepresented by legalism when it's all about grace. That's all.

[Devils Advocate]

Smoochie and Woggle: why is it that the women you like are making less of a strong impression on you than the ones you hated? I find this extremely puzzling. For some reason, the women in your lives now, who you love, represent "exceptions" to a "rule", as represented by the wives who done you wrong. Bizarre. I find that to be often true, though, on these boards - people who did the hurting get far more weight as being representative of their gender than people who do the loving. Sad.

[\QUOTE]

 

Well that's an easy one right there, they're human. Pain is remembered a lot more vividly and has a bigger effect on your behavior than any pleasant experience. Pain is natures way of teaching us to avoid repeating that mistake again.

 

So, should Ms. Pixie do the same? Should I? My exH cheated, lied, wouldn't go to counseling, wouldn't tell me what was wrong, stayed mum rather than explain what was wrong and then just left.

 

My most recent ex didn't cheat and I would call him honorable, but he did have a problem being straightforward when something upset him and telling me, instead assuming that I should just be able to read his mind. (He basically admitted this; I posted about it elsewhere. Something that was being called a stereotypically feminine behavior, which just cracks me up, it's so not true.)

 

So seriously, I don't get what you all are saying. Why do you think this is gender-specific, rather than just recognizing that you had bad relationship experiences and are now having good ones, and therefore generalizations like the ones you've been making in this thread are complete crap? :confused:

 

Because overwhelmingly it is sex specific (the term gender is not relevent to this) and overwhelmingly it is a trait that is common among among females and effeminate males.

[Trimmer]

Because overwhelmingly it is sex specific (the term gender is not relevent to this) and overwhelmingly it is a trait that is common among among females and effeminate males.

 

My own experience matches this, but it is pretty much limited to a sample population of one, so I won't allow myself to generalize from that. Regardless, although I'm not inclined to argue with the plausibility of your assertion, the subject of sweeping generalizations is a pet topic of mine (and I think your use of the term "overwhelminly" definitely propels you into 'sweeping generalization' territory...) But I am curious: what is your substantiation for this statement? Research, your own clinical experience, etc?

[Devils Advocate]

My own experience matches this, but it is pretty much limited to a sample population of one, so I won't allow myself to generalize from that. Regardless, although I'm not inclined to argue with the plausibility of your assertion, the subject of sweeping generalizations is a pet topic of mine (and I think your use of the term "overwhelminly" definitely propels you into 'sweeping generalization' territory...) But I am curious: what is your substantiation for this statement? Research, your own clinical experience, etc?

 

Well first it's overwhelminGly (note the G) but I digress.

 

A sweeping generalization would have been if I said ALL women expect you to read their mind or ALL effeminate men react this way. The statement I said, by every linguistic definition, means noticebly more do than don't.

As for evidence if you're wishing to discuss the REAMS of studies/experiments that women prefer to communicate via non-verbal means (body language, vocal tones, etc.) and that men are ill-equipped to understand or even notice those clues which results in the frequent "generalization" I'm using I'd be more than willing to discuss it with you but we should move that to a different topic since we are veering off point here.

[SmoochieFace]

...men are ill-equipped to understand or even notice those clues...

 

Nothing to discuss here cuz I am well aware of this. I am living proof of it - in fact, I don't know jack *beep* about *body language*. If people wanna communicate with me they had better do it with their mouths cuz I don't do that *body language* stuff.

 

That's a big reason why I don't flirt... all those silly things that people do... I don't get it. Never have and never will. Why can't people just SAY what's going on instead of playing *games* like crossing legs, uncrossing legs, engaing in gazing contests, playing with hair, etc.?

[Outcast]

to assert that not all Christians think like Moose

 

Right. I'm a Christian. But I advise not to bother to pursue this particular discussion with himself. It's been done numerous times before with the same result; to wit:

 

Moose: I know exactly what God thinks. And the rest of you are going to hell.

 

Everyone: But you can't do that - nobody knows the mind of God and you're judging.

 

Moose: I'm not judging but you're going to hell

 

ad nauseam

 

Really, you don't want to go there.

 

cuz I don't do that *body language* stuff.

 

That's a big reason why I don't flirt... all those silly things that people do... I don't get it. Never have and never will. Why can't people just SAY what's going on instead of playing *games* like crossing legs, uncrossing legs, engaing in gazing contests, playing with hair, etc.?

 

That is because Aspies don't pick them up. I don't think anybody knows why. People don't consciously do those things!!!! I mean some might, but it's instinct.

 

'Mirroring' has got to be instinct. I know I have found myself actively fighting the urge to mirror someone when I was trying not to show my feelings and it was a huge battle! It was as though I was trying to pull my metal self away from a magnet!

[JayKay]

Well, I wasn't married (technically) but I was in a long-term / live-together relationship with a man (who wanted to get married) and when I left him it wasn't because I had someone lined up.

 

I had NOBODY waiting in the wings for me. It was a very lonely time.

 

I left this guy because of his drinking, jealous rages and control-freak issues. I left because he didn't want me to have any friends except for him. I left because he destroyed any love I'd originally had for him.

 

I'm sure he'd love to believe I was a cheating sl*t or was somehow 'stolen' from him by a conniving male waiting in the shadows. He'd never admit that he screwed up.

[Trimmer]

Well first it's overwhelminGly (note the G) but I digress.

 

A sweeping generalization would have been if I said ALL women expect you to read their mind or ALL effeminate men react this way. The statement I said, by every linguistic definition, means noticebly more do than don't.

As for evidence if you're wishing to discuss the REAMS of studies/experiments that women prefer to communicate via non-verbal means (body language, vocal tones, etc.) and that men are ill-equipped to understand or even notice those clues which results in the frequent "generalization" I'm using I'd be more than willing to discuss it with you but we should move that to a different topic since we are veering off point here.

 

Leading with the typo - very classy... Didn't mean to draw you into a spelling / linguistic discussion. (<-sentence fragment)

 

As far as the substance of your post: point taken. Asked and answered.

[Moose]

Outcast, you're dillusional.

 

This thread is about women ending marriages. I stated my opinions, thoughts and beliefs on where my stance is on the subject.

 

NOWHERE, did I claim to know the mind of God, or that ANYONE was going to hell.....

 

I'd appreciate it if you would stop this slander......

[Outcast]

All the reader has to do is search your old posts. Ain't slander unless it's untrue. Saying 'you'll have to answer to God' is the same as saying 'you'll go to hell'. You're dissembling. Quit it.

[Moose]

k, Outcast got a PM.

 

Let's not get off topic around here.

 

Members are free to look at every single one my posts I've EVER posted and draw their own conclusions.

[Becoming]

I really think you mean well, Moose, ok? But suggesting to someone who lived with emotional neglect for 10 years that she'll get a silver crown (or whatever) instead of a gold one (see above) is judgmental. You can do better.

[Moose]

This is what I said:

SO, maybe Pixie's fixtures in her eternal home will be made of Silver instead of Gold.

I said MAYBE she'll get silver fixtures instead of gold......

 

I didn't say she would, or wouldn't. I have no idea.......

 

I hope you're getting your enjoyment twisting my words around.......