uleryrns Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 I'll add to this post by saying that my H and I have communication problems just like this. I am afraid of confrontation and therefore tend to have trouble being forthright in communicating my thoughts and feelings. I know that the longer I don't come out and just say it directly, the more problems are going to remain and get worse. Yet, when I have sat down with my H and discussed my feelings (and his) in detail, and I tell him point blank how I'm feeling and how certain things need to be changed or amended, etc, we come to an agreement that we'll both try harder in the areas we need to to make each other happy, and for about a week he does fine, then goes right back to doing all the things that we discussed that make me unhappy and dislike him. I KNOW he heard me, but it didn't sink in enough for him to realize how seriously it's affected me. Because now, since I KNOW he heard me, I can't help but feel resentment and animosity towards him because he doesn't seem to care enough to "get it". We use active communication where one of us says what they feel, then the other repeats/paraphrases back what they heard, so they know the other is listening and getting what they are saying. Even though I have trouble being direct in speaking about my feelings and "issues", once I have, it doesn't seem to make a difference, and only seems to make me more frustrated because I know I've communicated them clearly, still to no avail. Is it just my H doesn't care or is unwilling to make changes? Link to post Share on other sites
ReluctantRomeo Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Is it just my H doesn't care or is unwilling to make changes? With the best will in the world, behaviour changes often take a while to stick. One trick is to reward him a lot when he does it. The old positive reinforcement thing. It is possible he doesn't care, but this is not a useful first assumption. I would start with the working hypothesis that he just needs reminders and encouragement. Link to post Share on other sites
Outcast Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally Posted by ReluctantRomeo I think that the crucial points are, as you indicate: - knowing and understanding what's going on in our own hearts - having the skills necessary to express it (these include courage and tact) - and the wisdom to channel it correctly in our lives These emotional intelligence skills are incredibly important. And in short supply. And ladies: do you note? This is from a man I'd suggest that all the macho dudes on LS who think being a 'nice guy' is a bad thing note that this type of thinking characterizes the genuinely nice guy - the kind of guy ladies really want. Having said that, I'd like to emphasize one bit: these include courage and tact I think courage is critical. Note this poster's remark: I am afraid of confrontation I think this is too often the case. People avoid 'hassles' like the plague and any sort of discussion that might be uncomfortable falls into the category of 'hassle' so even though they are uncomfortable with a situation, the will bear that discomfort rather than experience a 'hassle'. They hide from difficulty. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Becoming Posted December 13, 2005 Author Share Posted December 13, 2005 Uleryns: What RR said in response to your post! One of the hardest things in the world to do is change. Reward him when he does something right. And focus more time and energy on what you're feeling and how to best articulate that calmly at the right time, etc., and less on focusing on what he's doing wrong. I'll bet you'll be surprised at how many things he does do right when you do. Last night I shared some of the stuff on this thread and the "communicating with men thread" with my husband (who, trust me, sounded like yours just a year ago). And just talking about the issue in general in a friendly, "hey, whaddya know?" kind of way resulted in more info from him than I ever would have gotten if I'd approached him with "Why don't you talk to me!?" I learned, for example, that he doesn't even realize when he's not talking to me, hasn't talked to me all evening or even days (which b/c of my past issues drives me a little batty, . . . ok, a lot batty). So he said when he does that it would be helpful for me to ask him, "Do you need silence right now?" when I'd like communication, and to respect that sometimes he does. (See WhichWayIsUp's wonderful description of the marital respect they have). I also learned that because of his past, an emotional woman signifies DANGER! (and for good reasons if you knew his mother). He's working on not falling back into default mode. But I've learned that if I have a problem with him, I have to approach it like a business meeting in a totally non-threatening way, or we both end up in old patterns. He also confessed (now this was a shocker) when I told him hotgurl's experience with boyfriend mechanic problem that he thinks traditional male roles have men think that they are the CEO's of the family and that they can't say no to anything that needs done because as CEO's, they are in charge of everything. The buck stops here kinda thing. The CEO thing was quite revealing. Now, am I gonna use this info against him? If I do, it'll be years before I get another such juicy tidbit. Am I going to use this info? Of course. Will I challenge it? You bet. But gently, appropriately, respectfully--to help relieve the burden that thinking you're responsible for everything must be, to show him I'm his partner, not someone he has to take care of as a helpless female (yeah, right!), but as an equal partner who can be trusted with care. Hang in there, uleryns. I hear your pain. Stay focused on you and articulating your needs in counselling where it's safe for both of you. Our lobbing emotional stuff at men sets up an unsafe environment that is a guarantee he's gonna protect himself and not come out and relate honestly. Link to post Share on other sites
ReluctantRomeo Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 I'd suggest that all the macho dudes on LS who think being a 'nice guy' is a bad thing note that this type of thinking characterizes the genuinely nice guy - the kind of guy ladies really want.. Thank you I think this is too often the case. People avoid 'hassles' like the plague and any sort of discussion that might be uncomfortable falls into the category of 'hassle'... They hide from difficulty Exactly. It's a specific case of a pervasive problem of the human condition: myopia, where a small short term cost (or benefit) is prioritised over a big long term benefit (or cost). Link to post Share on other sites
hotgurl Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 He also confessed (now this was a shocker) when I told him hotgurl's experience with boyfriend mechanic problem that he thinks traditional male roles have men think that they are the CEO's of the family and that they can't say no to anything that needs done because as CEO's, they are in charge of everything. The buck stops here kinda thing. The CEO thing was quite revealing. . That is really interesting.my BF & I definatly have different communication styles. Also abotut he CEO thing in my family the women always weret he CEO of the family so soemtime I think we might have some power issues as well. I tend to steamroll him. Link to post Share on other sites
Outcast Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 he thinks traditional male roles have men think that they are the CEO's of the family and that they can't say no to anything that needs done because as CEO's, they are in charge of everything. The buck stops here kinda thing. The CEO thing was quite revealing. . Our pal John Gray talks about that. Really, women who don't get how guys think ought to read Mars and Venus. I don't agree with everything he says but his explanations about the inner male brain have been extremely helpful to me and I've been able to pass it on here and it's helped others. Link to post Share on other sites
witabix Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 As a man who is in touch with his femine side..... excuse me..... just adjusting my hair:lmao: .... now thats better, where was I? Oooh yes.... Men don't talk about emotions... yes we do, I have seen emotional posts from men on here and had emotional conversations with men. Women always show their feeilngs, no they don't. Men don't need a 2x4 upside the head, neither do women. Just need to say what is on their mind and do some reciprocal listening. Now stop all this squabbling and go to bed like good boys and girls, are you listening to me? Link to post Share on other sites
Outcast Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Men don't need a 2x4 upside the head, neither do women. Just need to say what is on their mind and do some reciprocal listening. Oh yeah? Well go over to the 'women ending marriage' thread. A bunch of people there could use the old wooden incentive, methinks Link to post Share on other sites
Author Becoming Posted December 13, 2005 Author Share Posted December 13, 2005 Oh yeah? Well go over to the 'women ending marriage' thread. A bunch of people there could use the old wooden incentive, methinks . . . which is what led to the original question. John Gray oversimplifies, as male and female exceptions prove here time and again. But there are definitely biological brain differences between men and women in general. Are they set in stone or will changes in behavior actually change the brain over time? Link to post Share on other sites
Outcast Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 John Gray oversimplifies, as male and female exceptions prove here time and again Well it's hard to capture all possible variants of human experience in one book Are they set in stone or will changes in behavior actually change the brain over time? There is certainly science about the 'plasticity' of the brain, most notably in the area of depression where it's been shown that depression changes the brain and therapy can change it back (in non-severe cases) but I think there's limit to plasticity. Perhaps non-heritable traits are more plastic than heritable ones... Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Our pal John Gray talks about that. I put our "pal' Mr. Gray in the same class as Dr. Phil. They are both charlatans and bufoons. Link to post Share on other sites
Outcast Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 I put our "pal' Mr. Gray in the same class as Dr. Phil. They are both charlatans and bufoons. **yawn** zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Link to post Share on other sites
Author Becoming Posted December 14, 2005 Author Share Posted December 14, 2005 People avoid 'hassles' like the plague and any sort of discussion that might be uncomfortable falls into the category of 'hassle' so even though they are uncomfortable with a situation, the will bear that discomfort rather than experience a 'hassle'. They hide from difficulty. Yes . . . and thereby insure only more convoluted discomfort later after multiple misunderstandings due to festering and no one saying exactly what they mean. Part of the discomfort, too, may be that they just don't know how to handle an uncomfortable situation. Link to post Share on other sites
friar tuck Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 Yes . . . and thereby insure only more convoluted discomfort later after multiple misunderstandings due to festering and no one saying exactly what they mean. Except to perhaps take some needed time out to figure out how you want to respond and how best to say what you're feeling, Becoming is quite right in saying that avoidance only leads to festering. Things don't just get better by ignoring them and they won't just go away. Like many guys, I'm not always in touch with what I'm feeling. (of course being whacked by a 2 X 4 might make me even more disoriented) But I am getting better at listening and dealing with things that are very emotional as long as I'm not trying to deal with multiple issues at the same time. If a woman will ask me for an honest question about one problem she has with me, I can generally respond openly and honestly. The problem is that relationships are messy and we seldom have the luxury of just dealing with one issue at a time. So if there are multiple issues going on, I have to try and juggle all the emotions and all the issues and all the baggage and all of the history. And that's extremely difficult. At that point, I start to feel overwhelmed and want to run and hide emotionally. But I've learned to ask for time to get my head in the game and to take a deep breath and ask myself what it is in this situation that threatens me so that I want to run and hide. If I can answer that question, then I can probably jump back in, be engaged and honest, and hopefully some real progress can be made. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Becoming Posted December 15, 2005 Author Share Posted December 15, 2005 Like many guys, I'm not always in touch with what I'm feeling. (of course being whacked by a 2 X 4 might make me even more disoriented) :) Good one, ft. Welcome to the LS! But I am getting better at listening and dealing with things that are very emotional as long as I'm not trying to deal with multiple issues at the same time. If a woman will ask me for an honest question about one problem she has with me, I can generally respond openly and honestly. The problem is that relationships are messy and we seldom have the luxury of just dealing with one issue at a time. So if there are multiple issues going on, I have to try and juggle all the emotions and all the issues and all the baggage and all of the history. And that's extremely difficult. At that point, I start to feel overwhelmed and want to run and hide emotionally. But I've learned to ask for time to get my head in the game and to take a deep breath and ask myself what it is in this situation that threatens me so that I want to run and hide. If I can answer that question, then I can probably jump back in, be engaged and honest, and hopefully some real progress can be made. Wow. This is extremely helpful. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Becoming Posted December 16, 2005 Author Share Posted December 16, 2005 This just in: in discussing some of these fascinating findings with my husband, including the thread communication obstacles between men and women, my husband commented that the minute a discussion turns into an argument he goes into argumentative mode. He says that the male competitive nature kicks in at that moment and that he's no longer listening; he's trying to win an argument. Is this within the range of a fairly common male behavior? Or just a personal idiosncracy? Or what? (I know it's not an either-or thing). But what about it, guys? Is this true? Link to post Share on other sites
Outcast Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 This is biology. When we start to argue, our 'fight or flight' mechanism kicks in and the stakes rise. Accordingly, the pre-rational bits of our brains come to the fore since 'fight-or-flight' is an instinct and the response is also instinctual. This is why the experts recommend that people retreat to cool off if they are in an argument. It actually allows time for the adrenaline to drain away and the 'rational' bits of the brain to regain control. Male testosterone correlates with aggression and I haven't verified it but that probably means it's also correlated with the adrenaline trigger so it would make sense that men would have these responses more quickly or more strongly than women. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Becoming Posted December 17, 2005 Author Share Posted December 17, 2005 That makes sense. I think it's important to check these things out as objectively as possible, though, because "It's a male/female thing" is often used as an excuse for bad or irresponsible behavior, which is unacceptable regardless of gender. Respecting genuine difference and accomodating to one another goes a long way toward not needing lumber to make your point, huh? Link to post Share on other sites
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