God - My attempt to answer some questions

[IPW]

I'm gonna post here the things I've talked about with Toni for anyone else to read, and also for her to read at a later date. I don't want this to be a discussion post really, if anyone wants to create a new post to discuss things with me and ideas then feel free.

 

I also encourage people to read through this, there are some issues that are hard to swallow at first. Things like heaven and hell for example, is something I didn't consider in my road to becoming a Christian, whether God was there was more important to me. I'm adding it however, because its what we spoke about, please don't dwell on things like going to hell as being pressure and a thing to put you off looking into God.

 

 

How do I know God is there?

 

God is 3-in-1, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The father is the conventional view of God, the Son is the human version Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus after he died upon the cross. This is in reference to the Holy Spirit.

 

If you see a book infront of you, you believe it is there. If you close your eyes and reach out, touching the book then you still believe it is there. So, we can believe in things we feel too, this includes feelings. We believe in love, if you don't yet, you will do oneday. I believe in the feeling of the Holy Spirit, its like love in the way its so hard to describe, yet so intense.

 

How do I know this feeling is God? Well I believe in God, and know he will give me these feelings. I don't kid myself, I've prayed with people before, when I wasn't a christian and I didn't feel anything. When I began to believe, I did feel something, something very strong. I also found it much more intense within a group, to later discover that the bible says the Holy Spirit will "flood" into a room of people praying/worshipping fairly frequently. I feel God, and you learn when this feeling is God and when its your mind, when you feel it, like love... you just know its the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

Who goes to heaven?

 

The story of Adam and Eve, you can read in Genesis in the bible. To summarise God created people with free will, the right to choose. Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, before this the world was perfect, when they did this sin entered the world. Once sin was in the world, everyone was born into it.

 

No one can say they haven't done anything wrong in their life, even if its just saying something bad about someone. Therefore we have all committed sin, compare to the perfect person, of which there is only one, Jesus. He is perfect because he is God. God is both Holy and Just. Holy means he is perfect, and can't associate himself with anyone who is imperfect, and Just means he must punish people for their mistakes/sins.

 

This looks like bad news for people, if we're born into sin what can we do? Well, God for some reason, which is incomprehendable to most of us, sent his son Jesus Christ to die upon a cross, with our sin. His life, was the sacrifice because of our sin. What this means is, anyone who accepts and believes in Jesus Christ, and accepts he died upon the cross for them, has their sin washed away. Making them more Holy, which means, God can now associate himself with you again!

 

So, sin is unholy and hence pushes you away from God, making it harder for him and you to have a relationship. Accepting Jesus removes sin, allowing you to be good buddies again! Obviously living a sinless life, as much as possible is important, this is why we should do what God says.

 

 

 

Who said we should do what God says?

 

If God exsits, then he is your creator. As Apple created the i-pod they give out instructions, telling you what its purpose is and how it is to be used, they made it so they give the instructions.

 

If God made us, it gives him the right to say what we should do, and how we should live our lives. He does this through his "word", which is the bible. Some people might say, hang on, I don't want to live like God told me to. Thats your choice, he gave you free-will, if you want to turn your back on what he asked you can do! This means you won't goto heaven, so be careful what you choose.

 

 

 

What are Heaven and Hell?

 

The feeling a Christian gets when they are filled with the Holy Spirit can be amazing, being filled, is to be with God. Heaven is being with God completely in a perfect world, where you're euphoric on God's presence, and is basically the best thing anyone can ever ask for, imagine living in the best moment of your life and making it so much better. Its hard for us to even comprehend, but the Bible says we should all desire it.

 

Hell is the opposite, its not being with God. You ever see someone and feel jealous and bitter because of something they have and you don't? Imagine hell to be like that, it is essentially seperation from God. People die, and have to face God, and realise they have been wrong and rejected him. They then have to go without him, which is agonizing, and they can see how wrong they've been. But because God gave them that choice and they chose to reject him, he has to be just and let them be without him... because thats his nature.

 

 

 

Why does God not guide or speak to me then?

 

Maybe he is and you just can't see it yet? God certainly guided me before I believed in him, he guided me into a University where I would end up living with christians. He guided me to my friends with whom I would meet my girlfriend through. He guided me to people who I could talk to about my issues and thoughts on religion.

 

Of course at the time, I said where is he? And why isn't he guiding me? It's something you have to learn to see, and sometimes the answer doesn't become apprent to many years later. Ever seen Bruce Almighty? "Give me a sign lord!" he keeps saying... we all see the signs, saying to stop... he doesn't and almost goes over the end of a cliff!

 

God does guide us if we ask us to, and he does answer prayers. We just don't often see the results of this to many years later. He also does things we don't always understand or want, and closes certain doors in our lives. For example my church leader's son died aged 14 I think... why? none of us will know in this life, and it seems unfair... but we are not like God and can't possibly understand how he works.

 

 

 

What about all the pain and suffering?

 

Again, we can't understand how God works. A question I ask myself, is "How do I know God is not already doing so much in the world?". Things could be a lot worse than they are right now, who is to say God isn't the one stopping things from getting that bad?

 

But the main point to this question, is about strength. If you had everything handed to you on a silver platter you wouldn't accept God, you would have no need and therefore wouldn't seek him. But God wants to be found hence we have a God shaped hole inside us.

 

When we suffer for varying reasons, normally afterwards we are stronger. We learn something, and don't make the same mistake again, through hardships we can become stronger people and more shaped individuals. Maybe God is shaping us into better beings and making us stronger? Or showing us that God shaped hole again.

 

 

 

Whats the God shaped Hole?

 

The God shaped hole, is like a craving, a need for more, something that needs to be filled. It's what drives greed, we always long for more, needing to satisfy ourselves. Look at Arnold Schwarzenegger for example, he was famous, a movie star, built like a house, had a wife, was rich... but he wanted more?! How much more can you get? So, he became a thingymabob of california (Sorry, don't know the term, I'm not from over there). I'm guessing, he's still not satisfied.

 

Why? Because that craving, is like a God shaped hole. You ever seen a kids toy, where the child tries to push a square block through a triangular hole? and it just won't budge? Thats like the God shaped hole, only God will fill that desire, that need. I thought finding the right girl for me would do that, but I was wrong, when I'm with God, thats when I'm fully satisfied. If you experience that longing or a lack of something, maybe purpose in your life... try putting God into that hole, you'll be amazed if you do!

 

I also think this is the reason, why when a natural disaster occurs people who wouldn't normally pray, do so. And why when people are desperate, they cry out to God. Why cry out if you don't believe? It makes no sense, unless that hole is there, and it is God's way of trying to persuade you that he's there.

 

 

 

So why give us free-will in the 1st place?

 

I've not got kids, I don't know if you have, but imagine you do and it'll make this easier to picture. God loves us so much, and he wants us to be with us, just like people love their kids and want them to be with them and love them back. You can make your kid live how you tell them, forcing them to help with the washing up, and things like that. But what really touches a parents heart, is when that child walks up, and offers to help with the washing.

 

Thats why God gave us free-will, he wants us to choose to love him back, because its so much more special to him! He's got feelings too... It just wouldn't be the same if he forced us to believe in him. Thats why he doesn't appear to us, because then all of us would believe, faith is required... thats the free will he's given us.

 

 

 

Ok, I want to be open minded, and believe if he's there, what now?

 

Look into things and be patient. You open your heart to God, but its up to him to give you the gift of faith. It seems a little strange, but God has chosen you to believe in him if you want to, and you have to wait until God thinks it the right time to do so. That doesn't mean those who don't believe aren't given the chance, maybe they just refuse to accept his nudges in the right direction and his offer of that oppertunity to believe. You have to want to believe for it to happen.

 

It does however say, everyone who wants to believe, will be given the oppertunity, so don't despair if you're trying. If you really want to believe, and you've opened yourself up properly, and not resisting belief for certain reasons (I was resisting, I had my reasons for not wanting to believe, and when I dropped them changes in my life occured faster than I can recall), then God will give you the gift of faith.

 

 

 

Thats all for my 1st post, hope it helps some people.

 

Ian

[Moose]

Just Awesome!

[sylviaguardian]

Ian,

 

That's a very clear post and explains a lot of things that people might want to know about your religion. However, you talk about it as if it were a 'fact' instead of just one version of a religion.

 

There are many other religions that don't follow this formula e.g. Muslim, Judaism etc. They could also tell you their version of the 'facts'. Would you accept any of them?

 

Sylvia

[IPW]

Maybe should have stated that it was the Christian view point on God really, sorry I forgot to do that.

 

I do talk about these things as fact, but thats not just because I believe they are, but because its incredibly difficult to put it any other way, I didn't like people talking about things as fact, but I've learnt that its so hard to do it any other way, and unfortunately I'm not good enough to do that.

[sylviaguardian]

It wasn't meant as a criticism. I am just curious as to how all the religions fit together, after all don't the majority belive in 'one God'?

 

One thing that I've always found really difficult about organised religions is the way that they are often not accepting about other religions. Once when I was studying a girl was talking about her religion (catholicism) and the tutor asked her about the differences between what she believed and what, say people of the Hindu faith believed. She answered "Well, they're misguided, it's obviously wrong"!!!

 

I just found it incredible when one of the key factors of all religious teachings is tolerance! Because I live in the UK I've also seen all the problems that arose through religious intolerance in Ireland with the fighting between catholics and protestants. The hatred and bigotry of the different religions really put me off organised religion.

 

All that said, your account of Christianity is very clear and I have never read such a succint account. It is really useful. But correct me if I'm wrong, do Catholics not believe something slightly different? And they are also Christians.

 

It would be really useful if others gave an account of different religions. Are there any others out there who consider themselves to be catholic, jewish, hindu etc who could give us a quick 'beginners' guide"?

[IPW]

Hopefully thats just the beggining, I want to add a lot more to this post yet, and explain many more things. I live in the UK too, and I understand what you mean. I have read things about other religions briefly, which makes me think, yes this is the right one for me. For example, one of the religions limits only muslims/arabs being allowed to believe, its a religion 'only for them', I think a similar thing goes for one of the asian religions. If its not for everyone, then its not for me as far as I'm concerned. God wouldn't exclude people, after all he created them!

 

Catholics are essentially Christians, with some extra views about the bible, and actually an extra book within the bible. They share all the beliefs of Christians, but have the pope (I'm not sure what he's supposed to be there for?), and pray to Mary, who they see as their contact to Jesus. Whereas the bible says that Jesus is the path to God, and hence thats why Christians pray to God/Jesus (remembering they are the same person).

 

Another example of a slight difference, is that at the communion (the giving of bread and wine to represent the blood and flesh of Jesus at the last supper) they believe the bread and wine actually turns into the blood and flesh of Jesus when they ding a little bell, whereas I think thats a bit silly personally, it doesn't refer to that anywhere in the traditional bible, and a representation makes much more sense to me.

 

Jews believe in the same God, but don't believe that Jesus was the saviour, they believe he hasn't come yet. I don't really know any more than that.

[slubberdegullion]

For me personally, a strong basis for faith has to depend on a lot more than "feellings."

 

I need evidence.

 

While I don't preclude the existence of some sort of universal consciousness, the type of Judaeo-Christian God as outlined by biblical sources emerged from what I see as an incomplete understanding, altered by personal viewpoints of the biblical authors, their tendencies, their cultural background and the political events of the day.

 

As for the concept of the Trinity, again this is an entirely manufactured concept which dates to the 4th century, and was essentially a political movement by Gregory of Nyssa, Basil the Great and Gregory Nazianzus to bring two factions of the early Christian church into one fold. There is absolutely no support for the concept of the Trinity in biblical records.

[LBC]

As for the concept of the Trinity, again this is an entirely manufactured concept which dates to the 4th century, and was essentially a political movement by Gregory of Nyssa, Basil the Great and Gregory Nazianzus to bring two factions of the early Christian church into one fold. There is absolutely no support for the concept of the Trinity in biblical records.

 

hello, this is my first post

 

Interesting comment. Why do you say the trinity was invented? And when you say no support to concept in bibical records, do you mean the old or new testament?

[quankanne]

Very well put, Ian!

[Apex]

God wouldn't exclude people, after all he created them!

Yes he would.

Mat 19:24

Catholics are essentially Christians, with some extra views about the bible, and actually an extra book within the bible.

There are 7 extra books in the Old Testament for the Roman Catholics.

They share all the beliefs of Christians, but have the pope (I'm not sure what he's supposed to be there for?), and pray to Mary, who they see as their contact to Jesus.

There are saints.

Whereas the bible says that Jesus is the path to God, and hence thats why Christians pray to God/Jesus (remembering they are the same person).

Roman Catholics do pray to God.

Another example of a slight difference, is that at the communion (the giving of bread and wine to represent the blood and flesh of Jesus at the last supper) they believe the bread and wine actually turns into the blood and flesh of Jesus when they ding a little bell, whereas I think thats a bit silly personally, it doesn't refer to that anywhere in the traditional bible, and a representation makes much more sense to me.

Transubstantiation is not limited to Roman Catholics.

Jews believe in the same God, but don't believe that Jesus was the saviour, they believe he hasn't come yet. I don't really know any more than that.

I am pretty sure they still have a covenant with God.

[Apex]

For me personally, a strong basis for faith has to depend on a lot more than "feellings."

 

I need evidence.

Faith is belief with no proof. If you have proof, then you cannot have faith.

There is absolutely no support for the concept of the Trinity in biblical records.

Mat 28:19 – “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

[slubberdegullion]

hello, this is my first post

Welcome.

 

Why do you say the trinity was invented?

Because it was. Basil and the two Gregorys (sounds like a 60's pop group, doesn't it? ) created the concept to remove the perceived heresy when some early Christians insisted that the Christ was flesh and blood. Other early Christians found this to be blasphemous as stated during the Council of Nicea in the early 4th century.

 

Developing the concept of the Trinity brought the two opposing viewpoints together, without either having to give up their faith foundation.

And when you say no support to concept in bibical records, do you mean the old or new testament?

Well, since the Trinity refers to Jesus, and Jesus only appears in the New Testament, then the biblical records predating the birth of Jesus couldn't possibly have trinitarian references. However, you'll find that there are no trinitarian references in either the old or new testament.

[slubberdegullion]

Mat 28:19 – “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

That's not a trinitarian reference, though it was used by the two Gregorys and Basil as a way of managing an internal church schism. Pretty smart politics, actually. Besides, according to people who know these things, Jesus never said that anyway.

[Apex]

I just found it incredible when one of the key factors of all religious teachings is tolerance!

There are limits!!!!

Here is a simple example.

 

You invited someone into home, and made every effort to be hospitable. This person then proceeds to smash up the place wrecking furniture, walls, fixtures, etc. The unconditionally tolerant person would stand by and let nature take its course.

 

A Christian would not tolerate the damage and destruction. He would tell this person to behave himself. If the destruction continues, that person is then removed from the home. If this person agrees to behave himself, he is allowed to return.

The role of leadership is to help keep things intact, in order, and on the right path. You might not like it, but that’s too bad. You can take it outside.

 

Without leadership and intolerance, the Church would tear itself apart, and die.

Do you like home wreckers?

Because I live in the UK I've also seen all the problems that arose through religious intolerance in Ireland with the fighting between catholics and protestants.

It may have something to do with British oppression.

[bluetuesday]

That's not a trinitarian reference

not a trinitarian reference?! and your evidence is...?

 

Besides, according to people who know these things, Jesus never said that anyway.

what people? what things?

 

hello apex.

[Apex]

Besides, according to people who know these things, Jesus never said that anyway.

Are you aware of the oral tradition?

[LBC]

Welcome.

 

thank u

 

 

Well, since the Trinity refers to Jesus, and Jesus only appears in the New Testament, then the biblical records predating the birth of Jesus couldn't possibly have trinitarian references.

 

what about the prophets that told of the coming Messiah?. But I spose you have to believe that Jesus WAS the Messiah. So if you do believe, then YES the old testament does refer to Jesus, but not to the trinity. agreed?

 

 

However, you'll find that there are no trinitarian references in either the old or new testament.

 

I disagree, what about John 14:15-26? seems pretty clear to me that Jesus is refering to himself, God and the Spirit. But then again....these people you speak of that know this stuff, would they say Jesus didnt say this either?

 

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

 

15"If you love me, obey my commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor,* who will never leave you. 17He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world at large cannot receive him, because it isn't looking for him and doesn't recognize him. But you do, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. 18No, I will not abandon you as orphans--I will come to you. 19In just a little while the world will not see me again, but you will. For I will live again, and you will, too. 20When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Those who obey my commandments are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them, and I will love them. And I will reveal myself to each one of them." 22Judas (not Judas Iscariot, but the other disciple with that name) said to him, "Lord, why are you going to reveal yourself only to us and not to the world at large?" 23Jesus replied, "All those who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and live with them. 24Anyone who doesn't love me will not do what I say. And remember, my words are not my own. This message is from the Father who sent me. 25I am telling you these things now while I am still with you. 26But when the Father sends the Counselor as my representative--and by the Counselor I mean the Holy Spirit--he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I myself have told you.

[LBC]

I guess I dont see how this can be invented in the 4th century when its agreed that John was written around 90 A.D.

[IPW]

As I asked in my inital post when I created this thread, can we please keep discussions in a different thread. I'd appreciate if we created a new one, this is to teach people about the Christian views on God and I'd like to make it as easy as possible for people to access the relevant information and not have to read all the arguments for and against, I believe that is for someone to individually assess for themselves.

 

Therefore again, I respectfully ask that arguments/discussions be posted elsewhere. Thank you

 

Ian

[newbby]

with all due respect IPW you stated that you wanted to answer peoples questions.

[IPW]

I do want to answer peoples questions, but generally the more common ones from a Christian perspective, and ones I can answer without large discussions.

 

Its just whenever you mention God, then lots of debates, discussions and arguments occur, like the other thread which is over 25 pages! I wanted to try and narrow things down somewhat, and help people find answers to their questions on the Christian faith. As someone else said, it'd be great if someone who believes in a different faith post answers to similar important questions. Then those looking for answers can find them easily, rather than spending hours looking through pages upon pages of arguments they might not be interested in.

 

Then those of us following these topics, can all argue to we're blue in the face in another thread

[ButtonPusher]

Its just whenever you mention God, then lots of debates, discussions and arguments occur, like the other thread which is over 25 pages! I wanted to try and narrow things down somewhat, and help people find answers to their questions on the Christian faith.

 

Fair enough, but even within the christian faith you have people arguing about god, already in this thread you have different views on christianity. So you will narrow it down to a debate between the different christian groups, which is god knows how many.

[sylviaguardian]

Are you aware of the oral tradition?

 

No idea what you mean. That quote wasn't mine.