Did a stupid thing!

[Kisar]

Well yesterday I had to see my husband to give him a check that came to the house. He was also giving me money at the same time. Lord knows I need the money. I became so angry because his demeanor was so nonchalant during the exchange. He never asked "How is my daughter"; He never asked "How is the pregnancy going". He just gave me the money and said that he would give me more when the check clears. I ended up asking him "Is that it?" You can’t ask about your daughter? He kind of blew me off and said that he had to go. I ended up throwing the two thousand dollars on the ground and said "keep your ****ing money"! He tried to give it back to me but I drove off. He called me a few minutes later on the cell phone and asked why I did that. I told him that we did not need money and that I was really hurting over the lack of emotion towards my daughter. He continued to say that he will not see her until I am sure that I will not argue with him when I see him. How is he so cool? How can you go over a month without seeing the child that you profess to love? Just because you are afraid that I will argue with you? Well damn it, I am hurt. Does he expect that I can smile with him? He left me pregnant. He cheated...he’s living in an undisclosed location...not available for my daughter when she needs him...never calls to say anything...oh yeah right I can be so happy. Well I ended up apologizing for my behavior and said that I would not be contacting him anymore and that he should have a Merry Xmas and Happy New Year. All he said was Okay.

[Devils Advocate]

Well yesterday I had to see my husband to give him a check that came to the house. He was also giving me money at the same time. Lord knows I need the money. I became so angry because his demeanor was so nonchalant during the exchange. He never asked "How is my daughter"; He never asked "How is the pregnancy going". He just gave me the money and said that he would give me more when the check clears. I ended up asking him "Is that it?" You can’t ask about your daughter? He kind of blew me off and said that he had to go. I ended up throwing the two thousand dollars on the ground and said "keep your ****ing money"! He tried to give it back to me but I drove off. He called me a few minutes later on the cell phone and asked why I did that. I told him that we did not need money and that I was really hurting over the lack of emotion towards my daughter. He continued to say that he will not see her until I am sure that I will not argue with him when I see him. How is he so cool? How can you go over a month without seeing the child that you profess to love? Just because you are afraid that I will argue with you? Well damn it, I am hurt. Does he expect that I can smile with him? He left me pregnant. He cheated...he’s living in an undisclosed location...not available for my daughter when she needs him...never calls to say anything...oh yeah right I can be so happy. Well I ended up apologizing for my behavior and said that I would not be contacting him anymore and that he should have a Merry Xmas and Happy New Year. All he said was Okay.

 

Well let's see, you've broken up and he's with someone else but is required to interact with you while things are still emotional. Then the matter of money comes up (which is ALWAYS a dangerous area). You have a problem with emotional outbursts and whenever the matter of your child comes up he perceives a risk of an argument occurring.

 

Just making sure I have the facts before I say something...

 

With this minefield in front of him and the frayed emotional state your both probably in he decided to avoid causing an argument and protect both of your feelings only to have you start an argument because he tried to avoid one ???

 

If this is what is to be expected from you I pprobably would have left you to.

[Mz. Pixie]

Kisar-

 

No matter what's going on with the two of you it's certainly not excuse enough not to see your own daughter. Only a selfish ass would do this.

 

I can only say to try and hang in there, take care of yourself and not worry about him. He'll get what's coming to him. As for your daughter, she has her mommy and she will be loved no matter what he does.

[Devils Advocate]

Kisar-

 

No matter what's going on with the two of you it's certainly not excuse enough not to see your own daughter. Only a selfish ass would do this.

 

I can only say to try and hang in there, take care of yourself and not worry about him. He'll get what's coming to him. As for your daughter, she has her mommy and she will be loved no matter what he does.

 

A selfish ass eh ?

Maybe he's simply a man who figured out that it's better to wait until emotions cooled and he could be around his child without exposing her to the constant arguing, screaming, crying, erratic behavior and outright cruelty that a divorcing couples go through is worth it.

 

I'd prefer for my child to miss me for a few months than to associate my presence to that kind of drama.

 

Ahhh.. the joy of being a man and being to look past today, hopefully something women can learn how to do eventually.

[Mz. Pixie]

He can see his child without her presence. He can call and ask about the child. Did you miss the part where he never even asked about her??

 

Not to mention she's pregnant and he left her.

 

Yeah, he's a real prize.

[Lil Honey]

I can understand DA's point - to a point. My ex-BIL stopped seeing his kids and I truely think it was because (in part) due to my sister's hysterical outbursts and her need to fight him verbally EVERY time he came to see the kids. I'm not saying that avoidance is the best solution. I'm just saying that I have seen guys (not ALL) take the easy way out of a situation, and that means say/do nothing.

 

Unfortunately, the OP is PG. That only adds to the stress and to the loss. Sure she is going to be upset when he shows no emotion, but he left so it really shouldn't be expected of him, either. (No, I'm not defending him, btw.)

 

I think NC is the best advice. You will have time to distance yourself from him and get your anger in order. Letting him see you emotional will likely feed his ego that so many women fret over him. NC will also give him time to think about time away from his kids. Let him contact you first.

[933KJL]

I am not sure the daughter is his? SHe always refers to her as HER daughter, like he was a step father to her....Obvioulsy the unborn child is his, but I am not so sure of the other one....can't tell

[fomerlyniceguy]

It sounds like he is feeling guilty, he gave you the money. You blew up on him and he tried to give you the money again, you said no and drove off. He then calls and ask you why you didn't take the money. I tell you while he may not be reacting like you want him too, he is showing some kind of humanity towards you. If he truly despised or wanted to disrespect you he wouldn't offer the money at all much less two or three times. He may very well be biding his time on seeing the kids, I know in my situation my stbxw and I have discussed her going to my parents house and visiting them with my stepson, but we agreed that everyone involved needs to get rid of there negative feelings first. I have accepted our impending divorce they are are starting to. Kids are like sponges for negative energy, you need to keep your compusure around you ex especially when your kids are around. Talking bad about your ex to them, or any other nonsense in time will backfire on you. Privately between you and your ex if you feel like arguing that is fine. Just remember total emotional outburst like that may give you temporary satisfaction but in the long run people lose respect for that.

[Trimmer]

I'd prefer for my child to miss me for a few months than to associate my presence to that kind of drama.

 

Ahhh.. the joy of being a man and being to look past today, hopefully something women can learn how to do eventually.

 

Man, are you smug. As a man, and a separated father of a daughter, I ask you not to be so presumptuous as to speak for me. And on behalf of my STBXwife, I ask you not to generalize about women either, since for whatever faults I may ascribe to her and whatever anger I hold towards her, I still know that she is able to look past today just fine, thank you.

 

Neither of us would find it acceptable to exit from our childrens' lives for a few months just for our own comfort, and we both work at looking "past today" and keeping our divorce drama separate from our relationships with our kids.

 

I'll speak plainly: your generalizations are offensive...

 

 

Kisar:

 

I know you are in great pain. But like Mz. Pixie said back in November, you need to get a grip. He has two things that are of significant value: financial support, which I believe was a big concern of yours a few weeks ago, and his presence in your daughter's life. I'm not saying you should just "get over it", but if there's any way you can just dial it back enough to keep that money in your hands and get him to spend some time with your daughter, wouldn't those two things significantly relieve at least some of your stressors?

 

I think it sucks that he is so cold, both to you and to your daughter (and will you confirm for us that she is his biological daughter, too?) Regardless of the drama involved, I can't understand a father not working hard to find SOME way to see his daughter - the drama thing is a feeble excuse, and his ability to just stay away simply mystifies me. But it sounds like each of you is using the excuse that the other one won't take a step towards the center to remain entrenched. I want to say this gently, because I'm not intending to beat on you, but aren't you kind of doing something a little similar to what he is doing, by allowing yourself to obstruct the benefits he has to offer your daughter (financial support, time spent with her) out of anger, pride, ego?

 

You do need the money, your daughter does need her father involved in her life. I realize that by refusing the money, you've taken a huge stand based on pride, and that makes it even harder now to back off, but is there any way you can take a small step towards the center for the financial and emotional benefit of your daughter and yourself?

 

You anger is justified and real - I have felt a lot of anger in my situation - and I believe you need to feel it, to talk it out, heck, even act it out if you can do so safely... But I have also found that letting it out in the direction of my STBX is damaging to virtually everyone's interests, and it seems like that is happening with you, too.

 

I bet he feels like the @sshole you think him to be, and he rationalizes this, and his withdrawl, with the excuse that you are being dramatic with him. Continuing to keep the drama at a high level just feeds his intransigence, and will help him to justify withdrawing further. C'mon - you're a therapist, you can see this, right?

 

I'll repeat my earlier pleading to you - have you hooked up with a counselor or therapist? I'm not judging, but you even called your own action "stupid." I'm afraid for you that your insistence on going it alone coupled with your very strong feelings here are going to eat you up and lead you down a bad path...

[Devils Advocate]

Man, are you smug. As a man, and a separated father of a daughter, I ask you not to be so presumptuous as to speak for me. And on behalf of my STBXwife, I ask you not to generalize about women either, since for whatever faults I may ascribe to her and whatever anger I hold towards her, I still know that she is able to look past today just fine, thank you.

 

Neither of us would find it acceptable to exit from our childrens' lives for a few months just for our own comfort, and we both work at looking "past today" and keeping our divorce drama separate from our relationships with our kids.

 

I'll speak plainly: your generalizations are offensive...

 

 

And I find you're lack of reading comprehension and groveling, apologetic nature towards women offensive but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

The issue at hand here is simply his reaction and her reaction, and your personal history with your ex has no bearing on the matter at hand. He is doing what he thinks is best to keep the situation from become an emotional mess and becoming the screaming divorce it could be. He is doing exactly what any decent attorney would advise him to do in this situation (except meet with her to turn over the cash, should've had a neutral 3rd party perform that transaction and get a receipt)

 

The relationship is OVER, and it's in the best interest of the child (I love that phrase) that there are no overtly hostile acts or extreme emotional blowups in front of her or ABOUT HER !!! Now since the OP has admitted that when she's around him she is erratic, emotional and somewhat abusive it's in his and his child's best interest to avoid anything that could push her into that highly agitated state. Even denying yourself the joy of seeing your own child.

 

Now to live up to my handle let's look at it this way. He could have an ulterior motive, namely building up enough evidence of her instability, violent nature and risky behaviour to file an unfit parent/denial of visitation custody challenge. If he is good enough and crafty enough he can give up 6-9 months with his daughter and gain permanent sole custody. Difficult but not impossible.

 

Think about it.

[Neptune]

Kisar,

Is there any possibility that your ex could be in communication with your daughter? Obviously, if she is an infant then that is not a possibility. But, if she has a few years there she may be stuck in the middle and keeping a secret. Is she old enough to have a cell phone?

[Trimmer]

Kisar - DA makes some good points, and I believe that he and I are actually saying something quite similar. As my reading comprehension has been called into question, I would probably just mess it up if I tried to paraphrase DA's advice for purposes of comparison. However, what I'm saying is that your feelings are what they are, but if you cannot get control of your behavior around him, then you are only making things worse for you and your daughter in the future.

 

( I do, however, take exception to his point that I have a groveling, apologetic nature towards women. I'm quite put out - he's completely off base on this one. The fact is that I'm groveling and apologetic towards men, too. And pets, I guess - I'm a little afraid to stand up to my cat. Oh yes, and my car, I just wish it wouldn't break down so often, but I guess that's just its nature and I'll have to accept that... )

 

By the way, DA, where can we read about you? What is it that motivates a man to suddenly show up and hang out on the Separation and Divorce, Breaking Up, and Marriage boards here at LS and dole out brutally honest and honestly brutal advice? As in many social settings, around here we get to know each other, understand each other, and trust each other's viewpoints and advice by sharing our stories. This thread isn't the place, but just point us to a thread where you've opened up and shared your story. I'd like to get to know what brings you to LS...

[Kisar]

Okay, she is his bio daughter. I never told him not to see her...in fact, I arranged visitation through a third party and he refused that. This man who is so avoiding contact with me because I am so "unstable and emotional", is that same man who said tat he could never just walk away from his child. Which in fact he did. He just walked away. He tried to make amends...was in the home for two weeks....laughed, played, hugged, and kissed his daughter the entire time and one day left to work and never came back....never called....never asked if we needed money....never asked if she was okay...Okay he may have decided that it was not for him...I am starting to understand that. But, by no means am I keeping "our" daughter away from him. The major argument has to do with our daughter... (never in front of her though). I am constantly asking him ...when will you see our daughter? I feel like he is the one making excuses. I think that it is in the best interest of the child to see him, but I also cannot force him to do so. Like I said I have suggested many forms of visitation that do not include me...and the "very composed gentleman that he has been" refuses.

[Kisar]

Thanks for you support.

 

I am not sure that you've read my previous threads, but I know that my husband left me not because of my "emotional behavior" but probably more because of his "emotional dysregulation". He wanted out of the relationship because I am the stronger person (intellectually). As mentioned previous I would like to know your story...your advice is very well heard but I think without knowledge of the historical piece it is hard to come to conclusions. My emotional state has definitely been screwed up, but this happened because of him leaving me and though I will admit to having some problems before...I have always been very well capable of handling them. In other words I am "normal” Maybe not now...but I have been for the past 30 years. I agree that we should have no contact with one another, but I do not agree that he should not have contact with our daughter...I am always motivated to say "my daughter" because I am the only one offering "my support, love, guidance, and protection in her time of need". She is only 7 years old and for the life of her can not understand why this man just left one day. I would never forfeit seeing my child for excuses. I do however think that problem is solved because of my commitment to NC, but who knows in the interim..Whatever it may be 4 -5 months of no contact with his daughter is a big loss that may never be recuperated.. P.S. I feel the need to ad that my husband does contact me quite often..during the day...when I am at work....when my daughter is unable to talk to him. It’s usually to ask if mail has come to the house. He tries to stay on the phone but I always keep it very short and tell him that he should call when our daughter is around so that she can speak to him and he has not done so. He refuses to change his mail address and come to the home to get his things. So help me Devils Advocate...give me some more of your advice.

[Devils Advocate]

Well Kisar, since I am not your husband I cannot tell you why he is doing the things he is, I can only give you the assumptions I can devise based on what you have said and my logical dissection of the facts presented. However from what you have posted I will present these possibilities for you to ponder.

 

He calls to speak to you without the child around and attempts to make conversation. Nothing serious or heartfelt but to simply talk and have a dialogue ?

This could be a sign that he is attempting to move your relationship from an adversarial one to one where you can be comfortable with each other and find a way to work through whatever hostilities or injured feelings exist. Your refusal to allow any dialogue to develop and constant attempts to force the issue of your idea of what his relationship with the child should be (an issue you have stated is a serious bone of contention between you) may be inhibiting the relationship with you and her he's trying to form. It is a given that for any worthwhile relationship with the child he will have to come to some kind of understanding with you (as the gateway or roadblock however you decide to function) first. He may be simply trying to make sure that before he begins building the new and seriously modified relationship with his daughter you won't go out of your way to sabotage or even prevent it from happening. You have already stated to us and probably to him that you are going to control contact between him (and his household) and you (and your household).

A good father is under the impression that he should be ready, willing and able to suffer whatever it takes to protect his child from as much as he can.

Better a high amount of pain for a short time than a medium amount of pain for a very long time.

 

Or he could simply be an ass, I do not know him I can only discuss what logic and rational dissection of the evidence presented. The truth of this only you two can decide. My only recommendation is putting aside your own animosity and work for the most amicable arrangement you can for the benefit of the child.

[Devils Advocate]

Kisar - DA makes some good points, and I believe that he and I are actually saying something quite similar. As my reading comprehension has been called into question, I would probably just mess it up if I tried to paraphrase DA's advice for purposes of comparison. However, what I'm saying is that your feelings are what they are, but if you cannot get control of your behavior around him, then you are only making things worse for you and your daughter in the future.

 

( I do, however, take exception to his point that I have a groveling, apologetic nature towards women. I'm quite put out - he's completely off base on this one. The fact is that I'm groveling and apologetic towards men, too. And pets, I guess - I'm a little afraid to stand up to my cat. Oh yes, and my car, I just wish it wouldn't break down so often, but I guess that's just its nature and I'll have to accept that... )

 

By the way, DA, where can we read about you? What is it that motivates a man to suddenly show up and hang out on the Separation and Divorce, Breaking Up, and Marriage boards here at LS and dole out brutally honest and honestly brutal advice? As in many social settings, around here we get to know each other, understand each other, and trust each other's viewpoints and advice by sharing our stories. This thread isn't the place, but just point us to a thread where you've opened up and shared your story. I'd like to get to know what brings you to LS...

 

I have not posted any tales of my own simply because they have no relevance to the issues presented. I have worked through my personal demons and with help resolved them to my own satisfaction. This is a social setting but it deals with individuals seeking assistance with complex personal problems and they are more likely to accept advice from someone who's weaknesses they don't know. It is the basics of human nature, knowing the failings of others can and will diminish how much you respect them and whatever they have to say. This is the reason why all psychoanalysts are taught to NOT share their personal experiences or feelings with their patients. It diminishes the level of respect and effectiveness of the treatment.

 

However, since this is not counseling merely discussion, if others do wish to hear what I have been through to make me into who I am I would be willing to post it but at the moment it has no relevance here.

 

As for the comment regarding your attitude I stand by what I wrote, many of the posts from you that I have read highlight your tendency to attempt to empathize, and understand why these women do what they do and then to gently lead them towards understanding why it was wrong or a mistake or simply to defend their right to do what the want regardless of how it affects others. As soon as someone attempts to call them on the inappropriateness of their behaviour you jump to the defense, not because of the facts of the objection merely the tone used when addressing women. You, like many men, place women on a pedestal to be defended against assaults on their nature regardless of whether such assaults are warranted. You are attempting to reward them with chivalry even when they have done nothing to deserve such lauded treatment. This is the 21st century, chivalry is dead and you are defending the very women who killed it.

[Ladyjane14]

Your WH's loss is your gain, Kisar. You needn't worry about sharing your child, or your WH exposing her to the OW. You have her to yourself....and he has NOTHING to say about it. He made that decision. And for as long as he remains absent for her life, he's creating evidence that YOU can use against him in terms of child custody.

 

Let him hang himself. Some family court judge is eventually going to look down her nose at him like he was a pile of doody.

 

As far as your daughter is concerned..... Yeah, it sucks that her father has abandoned her. But life's not always fair. An inordinate amount of people these days are just selfish a*holes. It's a tough lesson for your little person to learn, but at least it's a truthful lesson.

 

It wouldn't help her a bit for you to smooth everything out with her father. He's a jerk to disappoint her like this, therefore....it only stands to reason that beneath it all.....he's just a jerk. She'll eventually find that out anyway. So, why be an accomplice to his subterfuge? Why should you help him to look like a "nice guy" when the truth will come out someday anyhow, possibly in an even more hurtful manner?

 

Let him be accountable for his actions....and non-actions. You'll do best by adopting a very dark Plan B (see marriagebuilders).