Hazing

[lindya]

I'm kind of going on about this subject a bit today, I know...but I'm appalled by what I read in another thread today. Just how commonplace is this business of brutal hazing when people are initiated into fraternity and sorority houses in US universities?

 

What steps are universities taking to address this practice, and what's the justification for allowing it to continue?

[ReluctantRomeo]

Not just in the US, I'm afraid Lindy. Secular (ie non-catholic) universities here have it too, although I don't think it's as bad as in the US. Catholic universities don't allow it.

[lindya]

Not just in the US, I'm afraid Lindy. Secular (ie non-catholic) universities here have it too, although I don't think it's as bad as in the US. Catholic universities don't allow it.

 

I don't recall anything like that from my university days. There was a lot of drinking in the Union and the Halls of residence of course, but not this extremely abusive, bullying element I'm getting a sense of.

[ReluctantRomeo]

I don't recall anything like that from my university days.

 

By "here" I mean my side of the channel, not yours of course

[littlekitty]

Good point Lindya... isn't this just organised bullying?! Makes me sick.

[lindya]

Good point Lindya... isn't this just organised bullying?! Makes me sick.

 

 

Take a look at what this prick has to say on the matter...

 

http://www.fratbeat.com/hazing.asp

[littlekitty]

OMG.... that is completely sick...! Surely this can't be legal?!

 

Clearly stupid little twats like him are allowed to continue plying this as some sort of rite of passage for collegue students... when in fact it's bullying and abuse.

 

Hmmm I have to shoot... more on this tomorrow. In the words of Arnie... I'll be back.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Take a look at what this prick has to say on the matter...

 

http://www.fratbeat.com/hazing.asp

 

Is he for real? He is proud of being an Associate Sales Representative for canned food. And he's proud of his role, where he can "influence the ebb and flow of canned goods at your local grocer".

 

And to be honest, the whole page comes across as quite out-and-out gay. No-one is this obviously latent and doesn't know it, surely?

 

Is this some kind of prank?

[Outcast]

I'm kind of going on about this subject a bit today, I know...but I'm appalled by what I read in another thread today. Just how commonplace is this business of brutal hazing when people are initiated into fraternity and sorority houses in US universities?

 

What steps are universities taking to address this practice, and what's the justification for allowing it to continue?

 

I just saw another CNN show on it. It's pervasive and many students die every year because of it. The practices are barbaric but the social pressure for kids to comply is, apparently, oppressive. Universities have been tacitly tolerating it for generations and some are, only reluctantly, taking action now because students have actually died. There are some schools that have banned it, but sadly not enough.

 

No such thing happens in my country, either, or at least that would be accepted. We don't really allow fraternities or sororities. There are some but it's not a popular practice here.

 

Apparently, the US armed services has also had problems with hazing rituals.

[SmoochieFace]

...the social pressure for kids to comply is, apparently, oppressive.

 

That's the root of the issue. Conformity and *fitting in*.

 

Peer pressure.

[lindya]

Is this some kind of prank?

 

I wondered, but usually I can pick up on spoofs. So much so, in fact, I often make the mistake of thinking that real people are parodying a stereotype...only to discover the horrifying thing that they really are "just being themselves." My feeling is that this guy genuinely is that much of a prick.

 

Apparently, the US armed services has also had problems with hazing rituals.

 

Perhaps that's what happens under a US president who used to brand his frat brothers' buttocks with a hot coathanger.

 

Mind you, I think internal violence in the military is pretty much a global thing. There was one particular training centre in the UK that had to be investigated due to the high volume of apparent suicides.

[Outcast]

Perhaps that's what happens under a US president who used to brand his frat brothers' buttocks with a hot coathanger.

 

And torture small critters. Much as I'd love to blame this on Bush, it's been going on for a long time. Really really sad mentality, IMHO, but also a scary testimonial on how supposedly civilized persons can turn into brutes all too easily.

[tanbark813]

Take a look at what this prick has to say on the matter...

 

http://www.fratbeat.com/hazing.asp

 

That's a satire. It's not real.

 

Most fraternities are secret and wouldn't post their rituals online or discuss them. The fraternity I was in is non-secretive and even we didn't reveal too much of what we do. There was hazing in my fraternity, but mostly psychological. Some other fraternities at my school had it worse.

 

Hazing exists, of course, but the stuff you hear on the news is the exception not the rule. If things don't go overboard it does serve a purpose as far as bonding goes. And unless you've ever been a part of it, you can't possibly relate or know anything about it.

[lindya]

And unless you've ever been a part of it, you can't possibly relate or know anything about it.

 

We can certainly comment on the fact that people have died as a direct result of hazing rituals. Or would that be too judgemental of us?

[tanbark813]

We can certainly comment on the fact that people have died as a direct result of hazing rituals. Or would that be too judgemental of us?

 

You certainly can, just keep in mind that that's representative of 1% of instances of hazing. The vast majority of people hazed do not die. I know from first hand experience. Only the extreme cases make the news.

[lindya]

a scary testimonial on how supposedly civilized persons can turn into brutes all too easily.

 

Here's some info on studies into the effect severe initiation rituals have on the new group member's attraction to the group. In short - why it assists the "bonding" process, and how those who have been through humiliating initiation ceremonies learn to rationalise such ceremonies.

 

http://www.uiowa.edu/~grpproc/crisp/crisp.6.7.htm

[Becoming]

And if only the extreme cases make the news, how many other things are going on that don't make the news that people never tell out of shame?

 

Most universities I know would not tolerate such behavior.

 

Do sororities do this kind of crap? Or do they simply decimate with words and gossip?

[Outcast]

Seems neither of the theories really held true.

 

It's more a matter of the success of psychological techniques like influence and persuasion.

 

Great link here,

 

http://www.workingpsychology.com/cult.html

 

with the added benefit that it's answering a question I've asked bunches of times

 

Yet, when assigning cause, observers will usually attribute cause to a person's personality, not the constraints of the environment.

 

This is such a persistent and reliable human bias--to assign cause to the person rather than to the environment--that it has been given the name of "the fundamental attribution error."

 

The other fascinating point:

 

The fact is, the environment can easily dominate personality-based differences among people, making person differences a relatively minor variable in the equation. In other words, given a powerful and engaging situation, people often react to it in a uniformly similar fashion, regardless of personality differences. This truism has been demonstrated numerous times in the laboratory (Sharif, Asch, Milgram. . .) and more frighteningly, in real life (Nazism, Bolshevism, Jim Jones . . .).

[tanbark813]

Here's some info on studies into the effect severe initiation rituals have on the new group member's attraction to the group. In short - why it assists the "bonding" process, and how those who have been through humiliating initiation ceremonies learn to rationalise such ceremonies.

 

http://www.uiowa.edu/~grpproc/crisp/crisp.6.7.htm

 

I don't think you read through that thoroughly.

 

"That is, independently of whether newcomers are treated severely or not, initiations seem to increase newcomers’ attraction to the group through the process of short-term, companionate exchanges."

 

"As we have seen, companionship does significantly account for some 8 per cent of the variation in group attractiveness. Two observations further substantiate this conclusion. One, there are no significant relationships whatsoever between affiliate exchanges on one hand and severity of experiences and depressive mood on the other. Second, extent of companionship varied with initiation stage, with stronger companionship observed during the campsite stage, when all members had the opportunity to meet and exchange rewarding interactions amongst each other, and with lowered companionship at the last stage, where such opportunities were less abundant. These observations suggest that initiations, irrespective of their severity, might activate affiliate exchanges amongst the newcomers, whereby the liking for the group becomes stronger."

 

"The absence of any correlation between newcomers’ severity of experiences / depressive mood and level of companionship suggests that this severe / mild main effect can be attributed to the specific circumstances associated with the two different student organizations, but not to newcomers’ actual experiences."

 

 

Also, nowhere in there does is discuss any kind of rationalization on the part of the participants.

 

Lastly, show me all the studies you want but it won't change what I already know. That article also doesn't discuss the feeling of pride you have after enduring such an experience when you feel like you can overcome any challenge.

 

For the record, on a scale of 1 to 10, if you consider the study's mild initiation as a 1 and the severe initiation as a 10, my experience was probably about a 6.

[RainyDayWoman]

i pledged a sorority (god, i can't believe it now ) and they "hazed" for 6 weeks during rush. i think the "worst" thing they did was tell us to meet in the main parking lot, where we stood in the cold until all of us a sudden we were surrounded by a circle of cars. they came out of nowhere! they jumped out and blindfolded us before putting us into the cars, dropping us into the middle of some woods somewhere, and we had to find our way home.

 

when we got back, we got accepted.

 

it was actually kind of fun.

 

however, if they tried to insert something into my rectum or otherwise, heads would have rolled....literally.

 

not all "hazing" is bad...but the part that is bad is often cruel and unnecessary and disgusting. from what i understand, guys are much worse, and it's not unusual to make a male pledge do something homo-erotic, even in a very slight way.

[Outcast]

the feeling of pride you have after enduring such an experience when you feel like you can overcome any challenge.

 

And so you succumbed to the very strategies which were designed to make you adhere to this group. It's the same strategy the military uses. Tear down your self-esteem and then build it back up according to their standards because you, little rat, ran the maze exactly the way they wanted you to. Then they give you the cheese and you are so so happy that you got that darn cheese.

 

Not making mock, Tan, of you, but quite distressed at how the known techniques of influence and persuasion work so well.

[lindya]

I remember seeing an ad at university requesting volunteers for a "learning experiment". I wondered at the time if it was the Milgram one.

 

Re sorority groups - I read ages ago (can't remember what) something about girls being made to strip naked so that boys from neighbouring frat houses could come in, inspect them and list all the things that were wrong with their bodies.

 

I've met a few bitches who would probably be happy to inflict that sort of thing on other women - so I wouldn't rule it out. After all, you only need a couple of types like that and a pack of passive nodders to make stuff happen.

[lindya]

Also, nowhere in there does is discuss any kind of rationalization on the part of the participants.

 

Apologies, that was actually in this article that made reference to the studies

 

http://www.units.muohio.edu/psybersite/groups/hazing.shtml

 

Lastly, show me all the studies you want but it won't change what I already know. That article also doesn't discuss the feeling of pride you have after enduring such an experience when you feel like you can overcome any challenge.

 

Do people have to join these groups (sororities and fraternities) at American universities? I know all countries have group culture to a certain extent, but the need for group approval and "belonging" seems far more marked over in the US...and I just wonder why that is.

[SmoochieFace]

Do people have to join these groups (sororities and fraternities) at American universities? I know all countries have group culture to a certain extent, but the need for group approval and "belonging" seems far more marked over in the US...and I just wonder why that is.

 

It isn't required but there does seem to be *pressure* to do so.

 

While I was in school I was approached to *rush* for Kappa Sigma. I curtly declined. Not my *thing*.

 

I do not understand why people have this need to be a part of groups like these. Perhaps those who have done it can enlighten us.

[Outcast]

Do people have to join these groups (sororities and fraternities) at American universities?

 

Strong peer pressure to join seems to work on lots of people.

 

I know all countries have group culture to a certain extent, but the need for group approval and "belonging" seems far more marked over in the US...and I just wonder why that is.

 

Well, not really. There's the pub culture in England, right? There are fundamentalists. There are sports organizations - look at the 'football' riots.

 

The urge to belong is expressed in all cultures but in different ways.

 

I do not understand why people have this need to be a part of groups

 

I think it's evolutionary psych. Humans are not solo animals. We are pack creatures - we don't survive singly or in pairs. So buried deep within our psyches is the need to be part of the pack lest one be left alone to be eaten by the predators.

 

And maybe those most fearful of the predators are most likely to group in packs. Witness the obscenities performed in the name of 'fighting terrorism'.