Hazing

[lindya]

Then start a new thread about torture and abuse, don't run an existing thread off topic.

 

Stop being so bossy. Anyway, Hazing can involve an element of torture and abuse. Even if this were off topic - which I don't think it is - if the thread starter doesn't mind, why on earth should you?

[Outcast]

Yeah, DD, it's her thread

 

Really, this kinda veers into the topic of empathy - and how, as demonstrated by Milgram's experiments, people will override their aversion to doing harm when an authority tells them to do harm to others. They also dealt with conformity.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

[tanbark813]

Stop being so bossy. Anyway, Hazing can involve an element of torture and abuse. Even if this were off topic - which I don't think it is - if the thread starter doesn't mind, why on earth should you?

 

Hazing is definitely not torture. I am quite positive that no one in my fraternity had it worse off than POW's in Vietnam.

[targetbag]

No, not at all. It's entirely voluntary. For me personally I joined because I was living with my parents while attending school and didn't get the same kind of social experience that I would have if I did the typical going-away-to-college and lived in the dorms.

 

This is the exact same reason why I joined a sorority some 7 years ago. And I still count several of those girls among my best friends. We were hazed a bit, but it was mild psychological. They did stuff like making us sing sorority songs while standing on the island section of a busy intersection. On initiation night the members of my pledge class were closed in a dark room together and not allowed to talk. If we did, initiated members would come in and make sarcastic remarks (mostly funny in retrospect). They also took us out and did stupid pranks with us, like blindfolding us and making us shoot water guns at each other. It was all in fun, and was a good bonding experience in the end. Any kind of hazing is strictly against National Panhellenic Council (incorporates all US sororities). Each year a representative from the national headquarters of each sorority visits each chapter to make sure it's being run appropriately (not hazing is just a part of this). A year after I was initiated, the woman from nationals figured out that my chapter was hazing. That was the end of my experience with hazing.

[amerikajin]

I think some hazing, like the kind Tanbark's talking about, is okay. As long as it's not permanently injurious to people, either physically or psychologically.

Fraternities must know the difference between hazing and assault or reckless endangerment, though.

 

But hazing by itself is not so bad. I mean, we all get hazed in life. The new guy on the job might have to run a few errands for the boss or stay a little later at the office than the other guys, just to show he's part of the team. At my kendo dojo I (like all the other new guys) have to clean up the floors after practice - I'm sure it's the same in other arts like karate or judo. I never joined a frat, just because I knew that was not my thing - and besides, it was damn expensive. But I don't necessarily fault people for joining them.

[lindya]

But hazing by itself is not so bad. I mean, we all get hazed in life. The new guy on the job might have to run a few errands for the boss or stay a little later at the office than the other guys, just to show he's part of the team. At my kendo dojo I (like all the other new guys) have to clean up the floors after practice - I'm sure it's the same in other arts like karate or judo. I never joined a frat, just because I knew that was not my thing - and besides, it was damn expensive. But I don't necessarily fault people for joining them.

 

I agree that there are initiations for all sorts of new things, and if it's just fun and mildly embarrassing I don't have a problem. What does worry me is that there's a certain vicious mob mentality which I think ties into hazing, and to my mind is becoming increasingly acceptable. I'll pm you a link to a site which you've probably seen before - and which pretty well demonstrates what I mean.

[Citizen Erased]

haha I just re-read that link which lindya provided and apparently men spanking other men is determining whether they are truly full-blooded real men. Now isnt that ironic. I especially appreciated:

 

"The paddle is one of your most powerful tools. Make sure you spank your Little Brother mercilessly. Raise welts. Spank him hard, but after each spanking, make sure to caress his tender cheeks. Massage the pain away. This builds trust"

 

Now that must be REAL men bonding

[niko1999]

If I told you the truth, I would be forced to kill you:) It does depend on quite a few things actually "hazing" that is. Or for most Greek, pledging. Or, if greek life was banned at your school like it was mine , due to a terrible accident that took place during plege, it became new member education. If the organization is not recognized by the school, then they can do whatever they want to you. If they ARE recognized, then technically, there are rules that have be followed during pledge. Granted, I dont think I know of anything like sticking something up your bum, but things can get pretty rough. And dont think its just the guys either. But hey, Ive said too much already, "THEYRE COMING TO GET ME"

 

Greek, its whats for dinner:o

[Roo-bie2]

No, not at all. It's entirely voluntary. For me personally I joined because I was living with my parents while attending school and didn't get the same kind of social experience that I would have if I did the typical going-away-to-college and lived in the dorms.

 

 

 

I think one issue America has is the idea of socialization. We are pushed into thinking and being as independent as early as possible not as interdependent (relying on families and community). This push to independence pushes us to find ways to build the social animals we are. We do things to find or build a common ground.

 

We more so than other cultures push babies in their own rooms to learn to sleep by themselves. There is a push to early independent play.

 

In American culture there is something wrong with young adults 18-25 to still be at home unless they are going to school. In other cultures if you live in your parents home, it is fine as long as you are pulling your own weight and being “part” (interdependent).

 

As you age you should still remain independent. Once you loose this ability you are put in a nursing home. In other cultures the younger generation is expected to care for the old, not warehouse them. Each generation is interdependent with each other instead of independent.

 

Rituals (hazing) brings a common thread to a group of people that might not have much in common. If you look at long lasting groups and organization there is some sort of ritual involve to make a common bond. Hazing can be a ritual instead of a brutal right of passage. Some hazing can bring a since of accomplishment (like the other poster mentions being dropped off to find your way home). It is scary but it gives a common experience/emotions and teaches self reliance.

 

Some hazing is jut brutal and needs to be stopped. But what needs to be looked at more is the necessity and desire for these young adults to feel they belong to a/the group. Many of these people do not or have no since of community/interdependence with other groups or their family that drives their desire to belong and to buld that common thread.

 

 

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One a side note female groups are known to brutally haze but are sneakier at it. One example was a sorority busted for cigarette burns on bottom of the feet.

[lindya]

Some hazing is just brutal and needs to be stopped. But what needs to be looked at more is the necessity and desire for these young adults to feel they belong to a/the group. Many of these people do not or have no since of community/interdependence with other groups or their family that drives their desire to belong and to buld that common thread.

 

I think that's a very good post. Over and over again, history has demonstrated what happens when people who feel in some way alienated or cast adrift in society succumb to the desire to "belong" - whatever the cost of belonging might be. Whether that cost is in terms of their own ethics or the well-being and safety of any individuals the group feels like scapegoating.

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be part of a group; we're social animals after all, and mild hazing is often part of a group "welcome" in many cultures. What does scare me is when perfectly intelligent people become so desperate for the group's affirmation that they will readily behave like thugs just to get that sense of belonging they need so badly. I'm reminded of that scene where the frat boy turned rapist in The Accused.

 

However disapprovingly Hollywood might portray scenarios of the weak and vulnerable being abused, I get this feeling that rationalising the abuser's cruelty and demonising or dehumanising the victim is becoming par for the course for an increasing number of people. The issue of violent hazing seems to elicit either indifference or bravado in most people I speak to, and I just don't get that.

 

New Year's angst, I guess.

[sparticuss]

Not just in the US, I'm afraid Lindy. Secular (ie non-catholic) universities here have it too, although I don't think it's as bad as in the US. Catholic universities don't allow it.

 

Sure sure sure! And they wont allow child molsestings in catholic schools either. But have a look at moy post about the judge who sentenced a child molesting priest to just one month per rape. Face it friend BOTH go on regardless of whats written on the book of official regulations.

 

Simply go to the police over these matters and keep goig back to them time and time again. They will never stamp out the practice but. buy simply investigating them, they force the hazers to pull thier heads in a desist for some time. Remember, all it needs os for a hazer to be charged. Even if only detained for a week and not convicted the destroyed repuation, the laywers fees, the court time, and such completely wrecks his college ambiitons for at least two years.