Perspective

[Weezy1973]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Odd I find plenty of people who are not obese, most are taller than 5.2 and many do not have kids but I guess being these things makes them "high value" or perceived to be so thus there is an array of options for them.

Of course they exist, the point is they’re rare and you haven’t even mentioned anything important. Height, weight, facial symmetry and children don’t tell you anything about the actual  person. If your first filters limit you to 1% of the female population, you’re just setting yourself up for failure. 

[FredEire]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The issue I have is its of no practical value. Sitting talking to someone does not make me anymore attractive or marketable nor does it make me feel better. For a great many months I lapped up YouTube dating advice, yea I seperated what I could quite clearly see was nonsense. If anything while that painted a doomed picture I did feel a bit better.

They would not even greet me never mind talk to me, they were all very happy to talk to my friend. On balance it was no loss to me.

I think most people fall in love in their life, it's hard to see any scenario where that would happen to me , just being truthful.

Therapy is not a transaction, it's not go to a therapist, receive happiness and loads of sex with beautiful women. It's a process of the therapist holding a mirror up to your innermost insecurities and maladaptive subconscious behaviours so you can bring them into consciousness and move past the mental blocks in your way.

Have you honestly tried it or do you just poo-poo it because you think "sitting and talking doesn't make me more attractive or marketable"? I would say it's made me a good deal more attractive, not because it's changed my appearance or anything but because it allowed me to move past a lot of my negative behavioural coping mechanisms, although I still have many more to go.

Why did you approach women with a friend? Of course if one person in a pair is much more outgoing, open and friendly and the other is skulking in the background they are going to talk to that one. Do it by yourself don't pass the buck to your friend and give yourself an easy way out.

You see everything through the lens of a sexual value model that is ultra transactional, logical and cold. You completely fail to see the rest of the picture because your outlook is devoid of any sense of love, either for yourself or others. Until you allow yourself to recognise there's more to life than is in your small box it's not going to work, it's like trying to ride a bike with one wheel. I really think an empathetic, patient and skilled therapist is the best way out of this.

[basil67]

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I have been making changes suggested here for years, I still cannot seemingly attract people I enjoy spending time with. That is the fundamental problem, I can try as I did here to find  every ounce of confidence I can, I try try and be outgoing and open but at what point do you say  "this does not work"? 

You've forgotten to mention that part of what you look for in a female friend is physical beauty.  

If you won't be friends with or simply enjoy the fleeting company of a 5'2 chubster, you don't have a right to whine 

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, basil67 said:

You've forgotten to mention that part of what you look for in a female friend is physical beauty.  

If you won't be friends with or simply enjoy the fleeting company of a 5'2 chubster, you don't have a right to whine 

Being best friends with a 5'2 chubby girl would probably be great for him, it would allow him to realise women are just people too.

[basil67]

2 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Being best friends with a 5'2 chubby girl would probably be great for him, it would allow him to realise women are just people too.

OP can see value in women.....but only the tall athletic ones.  I'm sure he gives the short, chubby ones the same look of disdain which he complains about others giving him.  

 

[Wiseman2]

Incels don't view women as people, just a toy they can't have like a spoiled child. 

[Gebidozo]

3 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Incels don't view women as people, just a toy they can't have like a spoiled child. 

Not only that, they don’t view themselves as people either. They don’t view people as people, but as marketable wares that are in constant competition with each other and whose value is determined by brands and superficial traits.

[ZA Dater]

13 hours ago, FredEire said:

Being best friends with a 5'2 chubby girl would probably be great for him, it would allow him to realise women are just people too.

I deal with enough women day to day to know they are people.

[ZA Dater]

13 hours ago, basil67 said:

OP can see value in women.....but only the tall athletic ones.  I'm sure he gives the short, chubby ones the same look of disdain which he complains about others giving him.  

 

No I have not, the vast majority of all the dates I have had were with people as you describe. Did you go out with people you didn't find attractive?

I went to those date's hoping to look past the lack of physical attraction. 

[ZA Dater]

17 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Of course they exist, the point is they’re rare and you haven’t even mentioned anything important. Height, weight, facial symmetry and children don’t tell you anything about the actual  person. If your first filters limit you to 1% of the female population, you’re just setting yourself up for failure. 

They are not rare I see them every single day. Sorry I do not want someone with kids, I fail to see why this is an issue? Or can I have no preference at all?

Ok so to be clear your advice for success is to just have no preference and simply take whatever you an get? Quite obviously I am not being so specific to rule out everyone and I stand by my assertion tall and slim is a reasonable preference.

[Weezy1973]

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Sorry I do not want someone with kids, I fail to see why this is an issue? Or can I have no preference at all?

The issue is you said you don’t find them attractive, except you have in the past found someone with kids attractive. What would be more helpful is if you said something like, “generally I’d prefer not to be with someone who already has kids, but for the right person I could still do it.” Because as your history suggests, you could. 
 

21 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok so to be clear your advice for success is to just have no preference and simply take whatever you can get?

We all are only going to date people that want to date us. Your preference in short is “women that won’t date me”. So if you want a relationship you, by definition, are going to have to drop that preference. 

 

24 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

…stand by my assertion tall and slim is a reasonable preference.

If it was only tall and slim, you’d be fine. But we all know that’s not the end of the preference. 
 

You also want pretty and likely feminine (wears some makeup, smells nice, dresses well etc.).

South Africa is very multi-cultural so I’d assume there’s a racial / ethnicity preference as well.
 

And you’ve said many times that you have pretty strong personality preferences - intelligent, worldly, outgoing, confident. 
 

So yeah, not just “tall and slim”.

But even if let’s pretend you had reasonable preferences (you don’t by the way) at the end of the day, you will only be dating people that want to date you. There’s no way around it.

 

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I deal with enough women day to day to know they are people.

You make a lot of statements about how you're very well balanced, reasonable, have a good relationship with yourself etc etc, but everything you post about dating screams the opposite.

It reminds me of Reddit posts by people saying they can't get a girl because women only like bad boys and they are such as "nice guy". The problem is always they are too "nice" never that they have self-esteem on the floor and they put every woman they meet on a pedestal.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

The issue is you said you don’t find them attractive, except you have in the past found someone with kids attractive. What would be more helpful is if you said something like, “generally I’d prefer not to be with someone who already has kids, but for the right person I could still do it.” Because as your history suggests, you could. 
 

We all are only going to date people that want to date us. Your preference in short is “women that won’t date me”. So if you want a relationship you, by definition, are going to have to drop that preference. 

 

If it was only tall and slim, you’d be fine. But we all know that’s not the end of the preference. 
 

You also want pretty and likely feminine (wears some makeup, smells nice, dresses well etc.).

South Africa is very multi-cultural so I’d assume there’s a racial / ethnicity preference as well.
 

And you’ve said many times that you have pretty strong personality preferences - intelligent, worldly, outgoing, confident. 
 

So yeah, not just “tall and slim”.

But even if let’s pretend you had reasonable preferences (you don’t by the way) at the end of the day, you will only be dating people that want to date you. There’s no way around it.

 

I am not interested in people with kids, yes it did it before, I have no wish to ever so it again. Earlier in the year I had someone very interested in me, she was looking for a father figure for her 8yo, honestly I am not interested in that at all. Eventually blocked her because the level of desperation was ridiculous including wanting to invite me over.

Because you can do something does not mean you should.

Again you have not answered my question, do you simply have no preference and just make do? 

It's actually very easy if I don't like my choice I simply don't date. 

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

Not only that, they don’t view themselves as people either. They don’t view people as people, but as marketable wares that are in constant competition with each other and whose value is determined by brands and superficial traits.

Firstly level of attraction doea influence marketability and choice. Someone superficially attractive will have enough choice to make up for any unattractive traits, I have seen this countless times.

A superficially unattractive person will have less choice and any good traits are much less likely to make up for being superficially unattractive.

I say this as an unattractive person 

[Weezy1973]

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Again you have not answered my question, do you simply have no preference and just make do? 

Are you asking me personally if I had preferences? I did, but I kept them as broad as possible. Here that are:

 

1. Someone I find attractive.

2. Someone I like spending time with. 

3. Someone with similar core values.

4. Someone that’s wants the same thing in a relationship that I do (I.e marriage and kids). 

 

For “someone I find attractive” there’s no more to it than that. No height requirements. No body type needs. Nothing to do with race or hair colour or boob size. Just need to find her attractive. And it didn’t even have to be “Omigod I can’t even think straight let’s rip off our clothes immediately and bump uglies” attraction. And while I could acknowledge I found some women more attractive than others, because my list entailed other things the “weight” of physical attraction was probably 25% of the package as a whole. 
 

I met a date once from online dating and the moment she walked in the door of the pub we were meeting in, I was stunned by her looks and found her extraordinarily attractive. And five minutes into our conversation I lost interest. Because I knew she didn’t have those other things I was looking for. 
 

But again, at the end of the day, you’re only going to date people that want to date you. It is what it is.

[FredEire]

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Firstly level of attraction doea influence marketability and choice. Someone superficially attractive will have enough choice to make up for any unattractive traits, I have seen this countless times.

A superficially unattractive person will have less choice and any good traits are much less likely to make up for being superficially unattractive.

I say this as an unattractive person 

I had a couple of friends who were male models, and they really struggled with women. They were obviously somewhat babied from a young age due to their aesthetic qualities and never learned how to actually have a conversation.

There was a couple of occasions we went out, my friends got talking to some girl and I ended up going home with her friend while he got shot down. After this they told me "X is really handsome but when my friend started talking to him she completely lost interest".

Looks are an in for a conversation, that's about it, if the personality doesn't live up to it it's still a bust. On the other hand if you don't have the looks but a great personality and lifestyle you'll find it harder to get that in and have to work harder for it but once you do you're much more likely to be successful.

Edited March 23, 2024 by FredEire

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, FredEire said:

Looks are an in for a conversation, that's about it, if the personality doesn't live up to it it's still a bust. On the other hand if you don't have the looks but a great personality and lifestyle you'll find it harder to get that in and have to work harder for it but once you do you're much more likely to be successful.

Thank you, this I agree with because it makes perfect sense. If you have neither the looks nor the personality well that is another matter, its actually akin to walking into the same wall over and over. To answer your earlier question I went out with said friend because I was invited, against my better judgement I went and the equation you state above just played itself out as it always does but again I accept that. 

My next question, how do you actually motivate yourself to bother to keep going? Would I be correct to say that by say 35, people sort of expect you to have some sort of dating record and a want to probably settle down. How do you approach this when you have less experience, how do you explain that away? I know if I had an opportunity with this latest interest I could make the most of it because in person the communication really does work, heck I can even show some personality. I then go to whatever dating platform, its once again trawling through people, trying to attract someone and I wont lie I am not seeing any upside to this. 

How do you deal with that? 

[ZA Dater]

20 hours ago, FredEire said:

Therapy is not a transaction, it's not go to a therapist, receive happiness and loads of sex with beautiful women. It's a process of the therapist holding a mirror up to your innermost insecurities and maladaptive subconscious behaviours so you can bring them into consciousness and move past the mental blocks in your way.

Have you honestly tried it or do you just poo-poo it because you think "sitting and talking doesn't make me more attractive or marketable"? I would say it's made me a good deal more attractive, not because it's changed my appearance or anything but because it allowed me to move past a lot of my negative behavioural coping mechanisms, although I still have many more to go.

Why did you approach women with a friend? Of course if one person in a pair is much more outgoing, open and friendly and the other is skulking in the background they are going to talk to that one. Do it by yourself don't pass the buck to your friend and give yourself an easy way out.

You see everything through the lens of a sexual value model that is ultra transactional, logical and cold. You completely fail to see the rest of the picture because your outlook is devoid of any sense of love, either for yourself or others. Until you allow yourself to recognise there's more to life than is in your small box it's not going to work, it's like trying to ride a bike with one wheel. I really think an empathetic, patient and skilled therapist is the best way out of this.

When something is being paid for, its a transaction, there is no disputing this. Your first paragraph is why I wont ever waste money on it again, frankly with the greatest of respect this did nothing for me, absolutely nothing. I am glad it has worked for you. Sitting talking to someone is not going to make me more confident, its not going to make me value myself any higher because I can value myself however I want, its how society values me that matters, at least in terms of dating. 

My attractiveness level is determined by OLD and right swipes, I'll put up good pictures and almost never get mutual matches. That sends a very clear indication of my attractiveness and renders anything else I have to offer as irrelevant. Which is fine.

I do not really work at clubs to be honest, I only went along because "we are going to find you a girl" and well that is not what happened though to be fair while they were not interested in me I was not interested in them either, barring one but she was engaged. Ironically it was her idea to try and set me up with her friends.

You are right everything I see through logic and unfortunately I have yet to be proven wrong. Every so often like I did with this lady I take a more emotive stance and believe in something which goes against any logic and you know what, each time I do this the outcome is the same. Ultimately I believe dating is a transaction, one person has something to offer that the other person desires and somewhere in the middle they determine each has something the other wants. 

 

 

 

[basil67]

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

No I have not, the vast majority of all the dates I have had were with people as you describe. Did you go out with people you didn't find attractive?

I went to those date's hoping to look past the lack of physical attraction. 

Personality comes before looks for me, and if the personality clicks, then I find them attractive.  Therefore, my threshold for who I'd date is infinitely wider than yours

The way you speak of women who you don't find attractive...combined with how you don't even want friends who aren't beautiful... leads me to believe that you do indeed look at women who aren't attractive with disdain.   I suspect that you're not aware of just how unpleasant much of what you write sounds and how those words reflect on you

Edited March 23, 2024 by basil67

[basil67]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

When something is being paid for, its a transaction, there is no disputing this. Your first paragraph is why I wont ever waste money on it again, frankly with the greatest of respect this did nothing for me, absolutely nothing. I am glad it has worked for you. Sitting talking to someone is not going to make me more confident, its not going to make me value myself any higher because I can value myself however I want, its how society values me that matters, at least in terms of dating. 

There are different types of therapy.  Talk therapy may not be for you, but someone who specialises in practical therapy such as learning conversational skills and creating interpersonal connections (such as small talk and how to have a two way personal conversation) would be very helpful for you.   I've seen this delivered to my son and how the therapist can break it down and teach is amazing.  Find a therapist who works with adults who are on the autism spectrum - they are the ones with the knowledge

[Wiseman2]

Are friends family and colleagues pressuring you to date? They may be tired of hearing about how no one is good enough for you. 

[FredEire]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

When something is being paid for, its a transaction, there is no disputing this. Your first paragraph is why I wont ever waste money on it again, frankly with the greatest of respect this did nothing for me, absolutely nothing. I am glad it has worked for you. Sitting talking to someone is not going to make me more confident, its not going to make me value myself any higher because I can value myself however I want, its how society values me that matters, at least in terms of dating. 

My attractiveness level is determined by OLD and right swipes, I'll put up good pictures and almost never get mutual matches. That sends a very clear indication of my attractiveness and renders anything else I have to offer as irrelevant. Which is fine.

I do not really work at clubs to be honest, I only went along because "we are going to find you a girl" and well that is not what happened though to be fair while they were not interested in me I was not interested in them either, barring one but she was engaged. Ironically it was her idea to try and set me up with her friends.

You are right everything I see through logic and unfortunately I have yet to be proven wrong. Every so often like I did with this lady I take a more emotive stance and believe in something which goes against any logic and you know what, each time I do this the outcome is the same. Ultimately I believe dating is a transaction, one person has something to offer that the other person desires and somewhere in the middle they determine each has something the other wants. 

 

 

 

You have a very transactional way of looking at the world, I suspect this may be the way you look at things generally, but there is something missing from this, without a doubt.

[Gebidozo]

13 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Firstly level of attraction doea influence marketability and choice. Someone superficially attractive will have enough choice to make up for any unattractive traits, I have seen this countless times.

A superficially unattractive person will have less choice and any good traits are much less likely to make up for being superficially unattractive.

I say this as an unattractive person 

There is no such thing as “marketability” in the matters of love, you should completely eliminate that word (and other mercantile expressions such as the abominable “damaged goods”) from your romantic vocabulary. You won’t get anywhere with your view of relationships as people exchanging wares. It’s a fundamentally wrong, ethically bankrupt ideology

[Gebidozo]

13 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I say this as an unattractive person 

If you consider yourself unattractive, women will consider you unattractive as well.

It’s as simple as that. You should first love yourself, and then others will love you. “Love yourself” not in fake, cocky, self-centered, narcissistic way (“I’m awesome, any woman can be mine”), but in the true, humble and giving sense of that word (“I have love in me and I would like to share that love with another person”).

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Are friends family and colleagues pressuring you to date? They may be tired of hearing about how no one is good enough for you. 

Nah they apparently think I need to date. There is a perception that dating would bring something good to my life.

Of course there is the question why I am so single all the time and you may have just given me the most blunt way to answer that question. Thank you