Perspective

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, FredEire said:

You have a very transactional way of looking at the world, I suspect this may be the way you look at things generally, but there is something missing from this, without a doubt.

Fundamentally yes. Everywhere I look everyday this system is mostly replicated. 

Perspective by nature is a by product of experience. Said friend has has good dating experience for the most part in that he has been able to date people he found attractive. 

It's very difficult to relate to someone who has not had that experience.

[Foxhall]

Someone gave you good advice previously, in the sense of changing your outlook,

along the lines of think to yourself that " I can talk to anyone anytime anywhere"   You are the prize in a sense have the notion that the women are lucky to be talking with you and not the other way around,

you can try to fake it then if you dont fundamentally believe that.

Maybe also you are overly focused on the endgame, that initial encounter of making a relaxed first impression is more important putting the thought in the womans mind, yes ok Id like to get to know him better. putting the person at ease.

Personally Ive only once ever had the pleasure of an evening with a South African- 

Im involved in squash (decent club player) and was organising club lessons from this lady- a top 30 in the world female squash player,

I remember meeting her and thinking ok this could be very formal, on the surface she is not overly engaging, something of an ice queen

I have to try make this more enjoyable-  I says if I can win one set off you- you have to let me buy you dinner,

"you dont seriously think you can win a set off me do you she replied"

As it turned out I could not of course, but she offered me a consolation drink,

and it was  great, she told me about her life playing as a professional squash player and she turned out to be very engaging and interesting,

but those initial barriers are hard- you have to show a thick skin be prepared for rejection and dont take it personally,

but you also have to think " you can do it"

 

 

 

 

[FredEire]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Nah they apparently think I need to date. There is a perception that dating would bring something good to my life.

Of course there is the question why I am so single all the time and you may have just given me the most blunt way to answer that question. Thank you 

It would in normal circumstances, but at the moment I think you bring nothing to the table except insecurity and self doubt.

If in theory you met this woman who ticked all your boxes and she was into you, would you really be able to accept you were good enough for her, or would all those insecurities you have just eat away at you until the relationship was destroyed?

This is the reason everyone is telling you you need to do some serious work on yourself and your mentality. Even in the best case scenario it just wouldn't work. You need to be mentally able for a relationship and all the responsibilities is brings.

[FredEire]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Fundamentally yes. Everywhere I look everyday this system is mostly replicated. 

Perspective by nature is a by product of experience. Said friend has has good dating experience for the most part in that he has been able to date people he found attractive. 

It's very difficult to relate to someone who has not had that experience.

You seem to be a very rigid thinker and very fixated on your own perspective.

I've come across this with many people in engineering or finance, basically any field that requires a very functional, logical way of thinking.

They think dating and relationships work more or less like a car. You have a nice looking exterior (physical attractiveness), put in the fuel (taking a woman out for dinner and talking to her) and the machine starts running (the output being sex and love).

While these fundamental rules apply to more or less every car, relationships are an impossibly complicated web of factors which include not only the above but the inner states of the two people, their past experiences and learned behaviours. It's impossible to make sense of in a logical way, which is why it's so difficult to navigate even for the average person, thus we have boards like this for when something unexpected happens in a relationship, and people come looking for answers.

Now the majority of people will have a degree of instinct about this stuff (emotional intelligence) which will help them to make sense of things and act accordingly, but a lot of it is based on gut feeling and going with the flow, as to understand it on a logical level is borderline impossible given the huge range of factors mentioned above many of which operate on a subconscious level.

If the level of this instinct is low or missing many people will revert to this ultra logical systems based mindset as it's the only thing they know and seems to make sense to them, but become despondent when they realise that it doesn't work out in the real world. There's a great scene in A Beautiful Mind where John Nash the genius mathematician is in a bar and calculates that there is a better than average chance a woman he sees will sleep with him, but is left confused that when he decides to tell her this she slaps him in the face.

Everything you've posted suggests this to me, that you cling to your "system" and hope that endless over-analysis of how your system is flawed will bring some kind of eureka moment, but you're missing a huge part of the picture that you can't see because it's not in your mental toolbox.

This is where a good therapist will come in, as they will be aware of this issue and be able to provide you with practices that can develop your ability to see things in a different healthier way.

[Weezy1973]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

It's very difficult to relate to someone who has not had that experience.

Your friend is not the best person to listen to. But folks on this board are pretty good. Many of us have had the same struggles you have when we were younger, but we adjusted our mindsets, often with the help of therapy, and then went on to date successfully at minimum, and often are now in long term healthy relationships. There’s going to be good advice there if you actually want a change in your life.

But you absolutely insist on doing the same things over and over again. I don’t know how many time I’ve suggested to just ask a woman out or for her phone number if you’re attracted to her, sooner rather than later. But you wait and wait and wait and delay and delay some more, succumbing to your fear of rejection and then the window closes, and your self loathing kicks in and the cycles continues.

 

Being rejected won’t hurt you. And I think a lot of this is actually fear of success - what happens when a woman you’re attracted to reciprocates and says yes to that date? I suspect you find that prospect absolutely terrifying.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Foxhall said:

Someone gave you good advice previously, in the sense of changing your outlook,

along the lines of think to yourself that " I can talk to anyone anytime anywhere"   You are the prize in a sense have the notion that the women are lucky to be talking with you and not the other way around,

you can try to fake it then if you dont fundamentally believe that.

Maybe also you are overly focused on the endgame, that initial encounter of making a relaxed first impression is more important putting the thought in the womans mind, yes ok Id like to get to know him better. putting the person at ease.

Personally Ive only once ever had the pleasure of an evening with a South African- 

Im involved in squash (decent club player) and was organising club lessons from this lady- a top 30 in the world female squash player,

I remember meeting her and thinking ok this could be very formal, on the surface she is not overly engaging, something of an ice queen

I have to try make this more enjoyable-  I says if I can win one set off you- you have to let me buy you dinner,

"you dont seriously think you can win a set off me do you she replied"

As it turned out I could not of course, but she offered me a consolation drink,

and it was  great, she told me about her life playing as a professional squash player and she turned out to be very engaging and interesting,

but those initial barriers are hard- you have to show a thick skin be prepared for rejection and dont take it personally,

but you also have to think " you can do it"

There is some truth to this. At no time do I really think "I can do this" because if anything the past has proven categorically I cannot, there is "well this worked for me in the past there is no reason I cannot do it again"  You are right about this initial barriers and here is is a key....for me someone is attractive if the conversation flows well and its a two sided conversation, for me this is perhaps the foundation for me to actually try so your experience is a good one from that point of view.

I never really leave a relaxed first impression I am pretty intense though I do try and take the edge off this by trying to laugh a bit, even if its at myself and steer conversation to much less formal topic, again if I find the person attractive. I do think this easy conversation can put people at ease but maybe I am wrong?

 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, FredEire said:

It would in normal circumstances, but at the moment I think you bring nothing to the table except insecurity and self doubt.

If in theory you met this woman who ticked all your boxes and she was into you, would you really be able to accept you were good enough for her, or would all those insecurities you have just eat away at you until the relationship was destroyed?

This is the reason everyone is telling you you need to do some serious work on yourself and your mentality. Even in the best case scenario it just wouldn't work. You need to be mentally able for a relationship and all the responsibilities is brings.

If I could be honest and truthful and be me I would be OK, at the point where I need to pretend to be something else, that is a fundamental problem and does not work, it might work at other facets of life but it does not work for dating.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, FredEire said:

You seem to be a very rigid thinker and very fixated on your own perspective.

I've come across this with many people in engineering or finance, basically any field that requires a very functional, logical way of thinking.

They think dating and relationships work more or less like a car. You have a nice looking exterior (physical attractiveness), put in the fuel (taking a woman out for dinner and talking to her) and the machine starts running (the output being sex and love).

While these fundamental rules apply to more or less every car, relationships are an impossibly complicated web of factors which include not only the above but the inner states of the two people, their past experiences and learned behaviours. It's impossible to make sense of in a logical way, which is why it's so difficult to navigate even for the average person, thus we have boards like this for when something unexpected happens in a relationship, and people come looking for answers.

Now the majority of people will have a degree of instinct about this stuff (emotional intelligence) which will help them to make sense of things and act accordingly, but a lot of it is based on gut feeling and going with the flow, as to understand it on a logical level is borderline impossible given the huge range of factors mentioned above many of which operate on a subconscious level.

If the level of this instinct is low or missing many people will revert to this ultra logical systems based mindset as it's the only thing they know and seems to make sense to them, but become despondent when they realise that it doesn't work out in the real world. There's a great scene in A Beautiful Mind where John Nash the genius mathematician is in a bar and calculates that there is a better than average chance a woman he sees will sleep with him, but is left confused that when he decides to tell her this she slaps him in the face.

Everything you've posted suggests this to me, that you cling to your "system" and hope that endless over-analysis of how your system is flawed will bring some kind of eureka moment, but you're missing a huge part of the picture that you can't see because it's not in your mental toolbox.

This is where a good therapist will come in, as they will be aware of this issue and be able to provide you with practices that can develop your ability to see things in a different healthier way.

This is a very good post! I'll admit the bold is true I'll also admit defeat after defeat has left me battle weary. I do not cling to a system at all, I have simply been ignored enough to have had the benefit of sitting and looking on at dating from the perspective of a spectator, guy rocks up, good looking, wealthy confident, this puts him into a top tier of men, sure I can try compete with that on the basis I might be a kinder, more gentle caring person but in the real world that does not work or very rarely does.

Someone here said you date at your level and while I do not agree with that from a practical perspective it is true, my friend, charming, charismatic, confident. Why would he want to date someone who has one of those qualities when can have someone who has? I have seen dating as to some extent an equal playing field where yes some have advantages but these can be counted by good qualities, I carried this belief for a long time, until I tried to actually work with the good qualities I have and found that actually they are rather worthless in the dating world.

What I need is confidence and the only way I am going to get that is to get this right , just once but the irony is having no confidence makes that almost impossible. However, again for whatever reason there are people I feel super confident around, this latest lady being one, here I can really just open myself up, throw all conversation out there, ride that wave of confidence which then means the inherent awkwardness is gone and its a great feeling to be able to engage like that. Someone like me is never going to bring that confidence out in me and it becomes a very strained conversation as neither can open up, been there done that.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

Your friend is not the best person to listen to. But folks on this board are pretty good. Many of us have had the same struggles you have when we were younger, but we adjusted our mindsets, often with the help of therapy, and then went on to date successfully at minimum, and often are now in long term healthy relationships. There’s going to be good advice there if you actually want a change in your life.

But you absolutely insist on doing the same things over and over again. I don’t know how many time I’ve suggested to just ask a woman out or for her phone number if you’re attracted to her, sooner rather than later. But you wait and wait and wait and delay and delay some more, succumbing to your fear of rejection and then the window closes, and your self loathing kicks in and the cycles continues.

 

Being rejected won’t hurt you. And I think a lot of this is actually fear of success - what happens when a woman you’re attracted to reciprocates and says yes to that date? I suspect you find that prospect absolutely terrifying.

Definitely not on the bold part, I live for success, nothing makes me feel more alive than accomplishing something. A date with this lady would be fantastic but again there is the emotive part which says it will be fantastic and then there is the cold reality of "there is no way she will ever be interested in me" and the cold reality wins out all the time because when has anyone I found attractive ever reciprocated: the answer is never. 

Why is he not the best person to listen to, he has had tremendous dating success, he has dated people he found attractive and by all accounts has done well at it, yes he is lucky to have many the superficial traits people like but I thought those were irrelevant? I have done the therapy wheel and I wont be going back there. Mostly to be honest I am fundamentally inferior to the people I find attractive, this is always going to be the case so its really just me doing what you like to call "aspirational dating" and I have to just live with that but it does not exactly motivate me to actually bother dating, that is the truth. There is never really any opportunity for me hence there is no window to close because I was never in the race from an objective point of view, asking her out, all it does is make me look pathetic (I did actually ask her out for what its worth, there was no response to that question when I received a return text 5 days later) so probability needs to be assessed too.

You taught me the following: People will always want to date up but most will never be able to. When a stunning lady walks past me when I am having breakfast, its exactly that I think about. 

I loath myself most days, I simply just hide it by devoting energy to better the situation of others around me and getting lost in work. Having said all that I do think how nice it would be to get it right....just once. My entire life people have told me I am not good enough, it would be nice to be good enough...for once.

[basil67]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Some People will always want to date up but most will never be able to.

Fixed it for you.   If everyone (or even most) wanted to date up, we'd all be single.

Please don't go imagining that everyone operates like you do

[Gebidozo]

8 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

People will always want to date up but most will never be able to. When a stunning lady walks past me when I am having breakfast, its exactly that I think about. 

First of all, what is “date up”? Define “up”. If by “dating up” you mean “dating people that are prettier than yourself”, then I can give you a million examples of ordinary-looking, or even rather ugly guys conquering beautiful women. But none of them achieved that by loathing themselves, complaining on a forum, or, most importantly, trying to select those women based on silly criteria from a list.

Second, supposing that’s what you meant - why would you necessarily want that? Why is physical appearance so important to you? And why are you defining it so rigidly (tall, slim, etc.)? Why are you so quick to put that “stunning lady” on a pedestal? What exactly is so stunning about her? Is she even nice? Is she faithful? Is she good in bed? Does she share your worldview? Does she make you a better person? To me, “stunning” is an amalgamation of such real qualities, which go way beyond looking like a picture from some fashion magazine. 

 

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, basil67 said:

Fixed it for you.   If everyone (or even most) wanted to date up, we'd all be single.

Please don't go imagining that everyone operates like you do

Well we pretty much agree on that point.

[FredEire]

7 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

First of all, what is “date up”? Define “up”. If by “dating up” you mean “dating people that are prettier than yourself”, then I can give you a million examples of ordinary-looking, or even rather ugly guys conquering beautiful women. But none of them achieved that by loathing themselves, complaining on a forum, or, most importantly, trying to select those women based on silly criteria from a list.

Second, supposing that’s what you meant - why would you necessarily want that? Why is physical appearance so important to you? And why are you defining it so rigidly (tall, slim, etc.)? Why are you so quick to put that “stunning lady” on a pedestal? What exactly is so stunning about her? Is she even nice? Is she faithful? Is she good in bed? Does she share your worldview? Does she make you a better person? To me, “stunning” is an amalgamation of such real qualities, which go way beyond looking like a picture from some fashion magazine. 

 

Agreed. There are plenty of very attractive women you spend five minutes in the company of and you no longer feel like you are dating "up". Looks don't make up for an awful personality. Also, in my personal experience some of the most attractive women I've been intimate with have been awful in bed.

OP has Quasimodo syndrome, he fantasises that physically attractive women are perfect wonderful princesses who are not only beautiful but so much better than him in every way, and when they look at him they just think "ew".

[ZA Dater]

27 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Agreed. There are plenty of very attractive women you spend five minutes in the company of and you no longer feel like you are dating "up". Looks don't make up for an awful personality. Also, in my personal experience some of the most attractive women I've been intimate with have been awful in bed.

OP has Quasimodo syndrome, he fantasises that physically attractive women are perfect wonderful princesses who are not only beautiful but so much better than him in every way, and when they look at him they just think "ew".

You are right that is probably exactly what they think. I agree some people regardless of looks can be awful people, that is the truth and it cant be argued. Frankly I could not care what they are like in bed. 

Everyone has their own perspective I do not think there is a wrong point of view, some simply struggle more than others, other somehow start looking for A and decide B is preferable, that is fine, they are happy which is all that actually matters. 

[FredEire]

9 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You are right that is probably exactly what they think. I agree some people regardless of looks can be awful people, that is the truth and it cant be argued. Frankly I could not care what they are like in bed. 

Everyone has their own perspective I do not think there is a wrong point of view, some simply struggle more than others, other somehow start looking for A and decide B is preferable, that is fine, they are happy which is all that actually matters. 

So if all beautiful women are looking at you like some disgusting piece of dirt they found on the ground, why the hell would you want to date them?

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, FredEire said:

So if all beautiful women are looking at you like some disgusting piece of dirt they found on the ground, why the hell would you want to date them?

Because I have met some I really do get along with very well, warm kind, engaging personalities. They wont sleep with me or date me but I enjoy their company.

[FredEire]

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Because I have met some I really do get along with very well, warm kind, engaging personalities. They wont sleep with me or date me but I enjoy their company.

And what is it that you think makes a person want to sleep with another person? Pure physically attraction? Because I'm friends with male models who believe me struggle with women.

[ZA Dater]

11 minutes ago, FredEire said:

And what is it that you think makes a person want to sleep with another person? Pure physically attraction? Because I'm friends with male models who believe me struggle with women.

I sure they do not struggle with choice. Having choice in anything makes a difference, at least in my opinion anyway. Said friend has always had a choice so when he got rejected for whatever reason it was fairly easy to move on to someone else. I have never had choice so I end up in these high stakes type dating situations.

Of course there is more to it than just physical attraction but physical attraction does get you somewhere. I'd guess its nearly impossible to date someone without some degree of physical attraction.

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

First of all, what is “date up”? Define “up”. If by “dating up” you mean “dating people that are prettier than yourself”, then I can give you a million examples of ordinary-looking, or even rather ugly guys conquering beautiful women. But none of them achieved that by loathing themselves, complaining on a forum, or, most importantly, trying to select those women based on silly criteria from a list.

Second, supposing that’s what you meant - why would you necessarily want that? Why is physical appearance so important to you? And why are you defining it so rigidly (tall, slim, etc.)? Why are you so quick to put that “stunning lady” on a pedestal? What exactly is so stunning about her? Is she even nice? Is she faithful? Is she good in bed? Does she share your worldview? Does she make you a better person? To me, “stunning” is an amalgamation of such real qualities, which go way beyond looking like a picture from some fashion magazine. 

 

Its defined on what I find attractive often its the combination of personality and physical attraction which defines overall attraction and if I can say "I'd love to spend a lot of time with you" and yes I have met very attractive people who did not interest me so its not that rigid a criteria. Of course does she make me a better person is vital, shared worldview, that is an interesting one and sure it would be nice but I like to be challenged to, that is a very attractive quality. As for good in bed, pretty irrelevant to me, again I write this off as reasonably I wont be dating anyone I find attractive so all of this is "in a perfect world", I'd sacrifice good in bed for other more alluring qualities.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Of course does she make me a better person is vital

I think this is problematic. It's one thing if they give you occasional advice.... but all in all, you should be responsible for your own personal development

[FredEire]

12 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I think this is problematic. It's one thing if they give you occasional advice.... but all in all, you should be responsible for your own personal development

Basically, you need to be happy enough with your life as it is to find someone suitable. OP wants someone to come along and fix his low self-esteem and make him feel worthy.

If any woman can do that, it's going to be entirely dependent on her sticking around, which will make you incredible needy and suffocating. It's not a recipe for a healthy relationship.

[ZA Dater]

28 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Basically, you need to be happy enough with your life as it is to find someone suitable. OP wants someone to come along and fix his low self-esteem and make him feel worthy.

If any woman can do that, it's going to be entirely dependent on her sticking around, which will make you incredible needy and suffocating. It's not a recipe for a healthy relationship.

Not sure I have ever seen any healthy relationships. I just want to actually share life with someone, its all good and well to do things on my own but trust me its lost its novelty long ago.

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

Not sure I have ever seen any healthy relationships. I just want to actually share life with someone, its all good and well to do things on my own but trust me its lost its novelty long ago.

So if you think a healthy relationship is impossible you should stay single and make your life better.

Someone who sees you as inferior, looks at you like dirt and you need to keep them constantly happy because they will never be satisfied as you are simply not good enough. That sounds like a nightmare if that's what a relationship entails. Why would you want that?

But of course not all relationships are actually like this and you know it really.

[ZA Dater]

Just now, FredEire said:

So if you think a healthy relationship is impossible you should stay single and make your life better.

Someone who sees you as inferior, looks at you like dirt and you need to keep them constantly happy because they will never be satisfied as you are simply not good enough. That sounds like a nightmare if that's what a relationship entails. Why would you want that?

But of course not all relationships are actually like this and you know it really.

Well there is some degree of compromise it would seem a happy medium is very difficult to find. I think what I perhaps have not made clear is I could actually forgo the physical side of a relationship if everything else was really great, in reality this idea does not work though, I have tried it before. 

I do think it must be very nice to be found attractive, again something else I have not really experienced.

[Weezy1973]

28 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Not sure I have ever seen any healthy relationships.

Another lie (I’m not sure if you’re lying to us or to yourself). Distinctly remember when you met your ex’s friends it was like a whole new world opened up to you of happy couples. 
 

My guess is your parents had a bad marriage. I’ve noticed through the years that some folks whose parents had toxic marriage believe all relationships are bad. Just some couples are better at hiding it than others…