Perspective

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, FredEire said:

In contrast you seem in love with your insecurities and feel obliged to worship them as some sort of objective truth.

The objective truth is I am forty in two months time, have never fallen in love, never had a relationship that progressed at all, only had one relationship, very little sexual experience so yes I do wear all of that on my sleeve because its the truth, what sense is there in hiding it? Why see myself as a catch when there is zero objective evidence to support that? 

I can go out, sit in a bar, go out have dinner on my own and I'll be left alone. I can do any manner of things, all of them on my own. Its the truth why spin some other narrative?

We all have things we are good at, I value mine but equally I know they are not valued. There are things I am proud of but recognize they are irrelevant to others. Yes, I can sit with very accomplished successful people but that does not make me successful, I am able to network that way with a degree of success, there are people who respect me but its been earned.

It helps in life to know the good but never forget the bad. 

This debate about dating has continued with my friend and everything is about choice I have little he has a lot, his comment forget about this lady who takes days to reply, problem is I like her and have no other equivalent option.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, FredEire said:

You could be on here 100 years, it doesn't matter if all the advice you read goes in one ear and out the other.

There are so many debaters who are socially inept when it comes to real life discussion. Successful dating isn't just turn up be a hunk and talk the woman to death. Listening is far more important.

I think this all comes down to the fact that you are too stubborn to even consider that some of your assertions about yourself could be wrong, dead wrong in fact. There's so many people suggesting here that there may be many other things you need to work on other than your physical appearance, but you seem convinced that nope I'm great at all those things I'm just not handsome enough.

They say the definition of madness is banging your head off the wall over and over again and expecting a different result. It isn't and wasn't working by your own admission, so why not take a step back and consider that all your firmly held beliefs may be flawed?

I suspect the answer is because it's too uncomfortable and has too many implications for your ego and psyche.

Yeah being useless is not a particularly great feeling. Looks get you the interview, without looks on OLD anyone may struggle. 

The same old tired 'therapy' is trotted out here, been there done that and will not be going again. Next.

Sure my beliefs are flawed they did not just arrived they arrived from poor experiences. Best way to change beliefs? Have experiences which banish those beliefs.

[FredEire]

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The objective truth is I am forty in two months time, have never fallen in love, never had a relationship that progressed at all, only had one relationship, very little sexual experience so yes I do wear all of that on my sleeve because its the truth, what sense is there in hiding it? Why see myself as a catch when there is zero objective evidence to support that? 

I can go out, sit in a bar, go out have dinner on my own and I'll be left alone. I can do any manner of things, all of them on my own. Its the truth why spin some other narrative?

We all have things we are good at, I value mine but equally I know they are not valued. There are things I am proud of but recognize they are irrelevant to others. Yes, I can sit with very accomplished successful people but that does not make me successful, I am able to network that way with a degree of success, there are people who respect me but its been earned.

It helps in life to know the good but never forget the bad. 

This debate about dating has continued with my friend and everything is about choice I have little he has a lot, his comment forget about this lady who takes days to reply, problem is I like her and have no other equivalent option.

The world is a weird and wonderful place, there are all manner of people who do unbelievable stuff in all manner of situations because they choose to go for it and say yes.

If you choose to say you are a hopeless loser who people see as a piece of dirt, guess what this is what they will see. Also if you don't think you can change, it won't. It's not just going to fall into your lap, nothing worthwhile ever happened without effort.

Frankly I think it's worse than useless at this stage continuing to look for advice on here, as you are only picking apart said advice in order to try and reinforce your tired old ideas. You don't actually want to change, you are comfortable in your unhappiness.

Edited March 26 by FredEire

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

The world is a weird and wonderful place, there are all manner of people who do unbelievable stuff in all manner of situations because they choose to go for it and say yes.

If you choose to say you are a hopeless loser who people see as a piece of dirt, guess what this is what they will see. Also if you don't think you can change, it won't. It's not just going to fall into your lap, nothing worthwhile ever happened without effort.

Frankly I think it's worse than useless at this stage continuing to look for advice on here, as you are only picking apart said advice in order to try and reinforce your tired old ideas. You don't actually want to change, you are comfortable in your unhappiness.

Happy to be me yes. Effort in what exactly? I've done the makeover thing, done the dating site thing, done the try be more confident thing. I hardly fit in with people and where I do fit in is not conducive to dating. 

Your advice has been handy and has merit and like most of the advice here I wished I'd been given it 20 years ago so real difference could be made. The advice here has surpassed any I have received. Thank you.

I will try ask the seemingly disinterested lady on a date, if that doesn't work then so be it. 

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Sure my beliefs are flawed they did not just arrived they arrived from poor experiences. Best way to change beliefs? Have experiences which banish those beliefs.

Wrong. One thing you and everybody on this thread can agree on is that your beliefs aren’t working. Yet you cling on to them for dear life. A “good” experience is not going to change your beliefs. Your beliefs are the filter through which you view the world, and if they’re unhelpful (like yours) you won’t get anywhere. You need to loosen your grip on those unhelpful beliefs. Therapy can help do that. At the core you issues are low self worth, and by extension fear of rejection. Therapy can help with that. And no it’s not magically going to make you more attractive, but that’s not the goal. 
 

If your beliefs adjust, your fear of rejection tapers, your self worth solidifies and your worldview becomes more nuanced rather than so rigid, you will experience more joy in life. Which is attractive. And you will have more confidence. Which is attractive. And you will be able to ask women out without fearing rejection. Which is attractive. 
 

You believe that being more attractive is the solution to those issues, however it’s the other way around. If you work through those issues, you will see the world differently and by extension become more attractive. 

[Wiseman2]

Therapy could help deprogramming the incels damage and help you gain insight into the narcissism and entitlement. 

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

Wrong. One thing you and everybody on this thread can agree on is that your beliefs aren’t working. Yet you cling on to them for dear life. A “good” experience is not going to change your beliefs. Your beliefs are the filter through which you view the world, and if they’re unhelpful (like yours) you won’t get anywhere. You need to loosen your grip on those unhelpful beliefs. Therapy can help do that. At the core you issues are low self worth, and by extension fear of rejection. Therapy can help with that. And no it’s not magically going to make you more attractive, but that’s not the goal. 
 

If your beliefs adjust, your fear of rejection tapers, your self worth solidifies and your worldview becomes more nuanced rather than so rigid, you will experience more joy in life. Which is attractive. And you will have more confidence. Which is attractive. And you will be able to ask women out without fearing rejection. Which is attractive. 
 

You believe that being more attractive is the solution to those issues, however it’s the other way around. If you work through those issues, you will see the world differently and by extension become more attractive. 

Bingo, he believes that success will build him up, rather than that building himself up will bring more success.

It's really that simple OP, that's it in a nutshell

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Wrong. One thing you and everybody on this thread can agree on is that your beliefs aren’t working. Yet you cling on to them for dear life. A “good” experience is not going to change your beliefs. Your beliefs are the filter through which you view the world, and if they’re unhelpful (like yours) you won’t get anywhere. You need to loosen your grip on those unhelpful beliefs. Therapy can help do that. At the core you issues are low self worth, and by extension fear of rejection. Therapy can help with that. And no it’s not magically going to make you more attractive, but that’s not the goal. 
 

If your beliefs adjust, your fear of rejection tapers, your self worth solidifies and your worldview becomes more nuanced rather than so rigid, you will experience more joy in life. Which is attractive. And you will have more confidence. Which is attractive. And you will be able to ask women out without fearing rejection. Which is attractive. 
 

You believe that being more attractive is the solution to those issues, however it’s the other way around. If you work through those issues, you will see the world differently and by extension become more attractive. 

I'll agree to disagree. There is enough evidence to suggest poor experiences lead to negative outlooks whereas positive ones doe the opposite. Therapy has not helped one jot and I wont be doing it again. What you cannot seem to understand, someone who only ever gets rejected, no amount of therapy makes any difference, if you get metaphorically kicked in the face over and over again what reason would there be to see that as positive? Please answer this question.

There is nothing wrong with my self worth, in the context of dating is very low but if you had my experiences I can assure you your self worth in that respect would be low too. In other aspects of life I do value myself and what I can do, why because I have through hard work managed to accomplish certain things. Hard at at dating has brought me nothing, make over hair, cut, new cloths, as much confidence I can, opening myself up, what has any of this actually done for me? Nothing is the answer, I am competing against the same type of person over and over again, something you seem to gloss over.

I have spent enough time around people who have nothing, life has dealt them a poor hand, poverty, social ills and often dire circumstances. You know what helps, speak to them like people, show the respect but more than that believe in them. A few years a guy started working, he stuttered, had super low self confidence in short he was the first person his family to ever finish school but he did not believe he could be more, over a period of five years I assisted him, motivated him, showed him he could be more, showed him that there are positive experiences. Today he holds his head high, no longer stutters, walks around with confidence and has a degree. The lesson here is simple, if you take someone who has has purely negative experiences, show them something positive, believe in them it can really make a huge difference. Negative beliefs can be banished by positive experiences, do you agree?

As for seeing the world differently, well to do that I'd need difference experiences and I have spent years looking for those. 

Ask people out without fearing rejection, this is a novel idea, please tell me which guy enjoys rejection and who would actually go and seek it?  Did you weigh up your chance of success before asking people out or was it a case of blind faith and a wish?

There is a reason I get rejected, there are better options available, that is the reality of it, no amount of sitting on some couch changes that. The things I am good at have no value in the so called "sexual market place". 

 Unattractive guys do one of two things, drop all standards or they friend zone those they want to date but who wont date them, am I wrong?

Ultimately you are successful how you define it and I am not successful, that's a case of perspective.  For me success is spending maybe 10 minutes with chatting to someone I enjoy spending time with who engages me and with whom I communicate easily, success for me is not sitting at dinner for two hours with someone from Bumble pretending I find her attractive while I try engage with her. 

 

 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

Bingo, he believes that success will build him up, rather than that building himself up will bring more success.

It's really that simple OP, that's it in a nutshell

Totally disagree. Dating owes nobody anything nor is anyone entitled to anything BUT that does not mean we need to settle either. I'd rather have nothing than something I do not want. 

An amazing idea is better than an average reality.

 

[Wiseman2]

Everyone who wants mindless debates uses these lines:

I'll agree to disagree.

There is enough evidence to suggest…

[FredEire]

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I'll agree to disagree. There is enough evidence to suggest poor experiences lead to negative outlooks whereas positive ones doe the opposite. Therapy has not helped one jot and I wont be doing it again. What you cannot seem to understand, someone who only ever gets rejected, no amount of therapy makes any difference, if you get metaphorically kicked in the face over and over again what reason would there be to see that as positive? Please answer this question.

There is nothing wrong with my self worth, in the context of dating is very low but if you had my experiences I can assure you your self worth in that respect would be low too. In other aspects of life I do value myself and what I can do, why because I have through hard work managed to accomplish certain things. Hard at at dating has brought me nothing, make over hair, cut, new cloths, as much confidence I can, opening myself up, what has any of this actually done for me? Nothing is the answer, I am competing against the same type of person over and over again, something you seem to gloss over.

I have spent enough time around people who have nothing, life has dealt them a poor hand, poverty, social ills and often dire circumstances. You know what helps, speak to them like people, show the respect but more than that believe in them. A few years a guy started working, he stuttered, had super low self confidence in short he was the first person his family to ever finish school but he did not believe he could be more, over a period of five years I assisted him, motivated him, showed him he could be more, showed him that there are positive experiences. Today he holds his head high, no longer stutters, walks around with confidence and has a degree. The lesson here is simple, if you take someone who has has purely negative experiences, show them something positive, believe in them it can really make a huge difference. Negative beliefs can be banished by positive experiences, do you agree?

As for seeing the world differently, well to do that I'd need difference experiences and I have spent years looking for those. 

Ask people out without fearing rejection, this is a novel idea, please tell me which guy enjoys rejection and who would actually go and seek it?  Did you weigh up your chance of success before asking people out or was it a case of blind faith and a wish?

There is a reason I get rejected, there are better options available, that is the reality of it, no amount of sitting on some couch changes that. The things I am good at have no value in the so called "sexual market place". 

 Unattractive guys do one of two things, drop all standards or they friend zone those they want to date but who wont date them, am I wrong?

Ultimately you are successful how you define it and I am not successful, that's a case of perspective.  For me success is spending maybe 10 minutes with chatting to someone I enjoy spending time with who engages me and with whom I communicate easily, success for me is not sitting at dinner for two hours with someone from Bumble pretending I find her attractive while I try engage with her. 

 

 

 

 

I only got rejected in my teens and early twenties, I did a lot of therapy and worked on myself, I became a much more successful dater. Is my story rubbish because you've decided therapy never works?

The way you talk in absolutes and build up strawmen arguments using cherry-picked examples or viewing things only from your biased experience is very frustrating. You're building castles in the sky and making sweeping statements about all sorts of stuff you don't have the authority to say with certainty because you're just basing it off your own prejudices.

Your example of the stuttering man you had to help is a good one because he picked himself up, empowered himself and actually made positive changes. Knowingly or not you are doing exactly the opposite to him when it comes to dating. To use the same example it would be like if he said "it would be nice if I didn't stutter but oh well I guess I'm just doomed because that's my place in life, those old stuttering genes again". Which would be very easy to do, but he decided to aim for more.

[FredEire]

48 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Totally disagree. Dating owes nobody anything nor is anyone entitled to anything BUT that does not mean we need to settle either. I'd rather have nothing than something I do not want. 

An amazing idea is better than an average reality.

 

That's got absolutely nothing to do with what I said there. I think you just give the same answers to everything at this point.

Of course dating owes nobody anything, success in dating is a byproduct of bettering yourself as a human being.

[ZA Dater]

45 minutes ago, FredEire said:

I only got rejected in my teens and early twenties, I did a lot of therapy and worked on myself, I became a much more successful dater. Is my story rubbish because you've decided therapy never works?

The way you talk in absolutes and build up strawmen arguments using cherry-picked examples or viewing things only from your biased experience is very frustrating. You're building castles in the sky and making sweeping statements about all sorts of stuff you don't have the authority to say with certainty because you're just basing it off your own prejudices.

Your example of the stuttering man you had to help is a good one because he picked himself up, empowered himself and actually made positive changes. Knowingly or not you are doing exactly the opposite to him when it comes to dating. To use the same example it would be like if he said "it would be nice if I didn't stutter but oh well I guess I'm just doomed because that's my place in life, those old stuttering genes again". Which would be very easy to do, but he decided to aim for more.

Big difference. I have zero control over how people find me unattractive. Nothing I say or so will have me competing with the guys those people can date. Guys ironically like my friend.

But I guess there are lots of guys who get this right so I must be wrong, never met one of those guys though.

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, FredEire said:

That's got absolutely nothing to do with what I said there. I think you just give the same answers to everything at this point.

Of course dating owes nobody anything, success in dating is a byproduct of bettering yourself as a human being.

No its a by product of being attractive. Some are more attractive than others and as someone else says if you stay in your lane you will date with absolute success providing of course those similar people you find attractive, if you don't, well that's kinda tough for you, accept or have nothing. 

[FredEire]

Just now, ZA Dater said:

No its a by product of being attractive. Some are more attractive than others and as someone else says if you stay in your lane you will date with absolute success providing of course those similar people you find attractive, if you don't, well that's kinda tough for you, accept or have nothing. 

Do you believe that attraction is only based on looks?

And do you believe it's impossible for someone to get more attractive?

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, FredEire said:

Do you believe that attraction is only based on looks?

And do you believe it's impossible for someone to get more attractive?

Mostly yea. Sitting in the corner is an unattractive person, standing in the middle of the room is ah outgoing attractive person. Which one grabs your attention?

Like it or not looks so matter as that's the initial draw.

Yes I do believe it's fundamentally impossible if I find someone unattractive physically no amount of conversation is ever going to make up for that. If you mean from a personality perspective, maybe but again those people have options.

Seems to me a person is better just trying to find someone exactly the same, like with like. Cool if that interests, holds not interest for me at all.

[FredEire]

Just now, ZA Dater said:

Mostly yea. Sitting in the corner is an unattractive person, standing in the middle of the room is ah outgoing attractive person. Which one grabs your attention?

Like it or not looks so matter as that's the initial draw.

Yes I do believe it's fundamentally impossible if I find someone unattractive physically no amount of conversation is ever going to make up for that. If you mean from a personality perspective, maybe but again those people have options.

Seems to me a person is better just trying to find someone exactly the same, like with like. Cool if that interests, holds not interest for me at all.

I have male model friends who have an awful personality when it comes to dating, and they struggle big time. It matters, a lot.

The point is you have a lot to make up for in the personality department. That alone would make you struggle even if you were really good looking. You have to sort that out first before you know how much of a difference your looks make.

I strongly suspect you're over emphasising their importance, a lot.

[ZA Dater]

9 minutes ago, FredEire said:

I have male model friends who have an awful personality when it comes to dating, and they struggle big time. It matters, a lot.

The point is you have a lot to make up for in the personality department. That alone would make you struggle even if you were really good looking. You have to sort that out first before you know how much of a difference your looks make.

I strongly suspect you're over emphasising their importance, a lot.

Not really, I have tried numerous times and being that kinder more giving more supportive guy gets me nowhere when confronted with someone better looking and more successful. No problem, I accept that. I don't have a fun personality thats just how I am, take it or leave it. I am loyal and will walk the extra mile but that's irrelevant.

It's all about how much choice you have. Looks get you choice. 

I am honest, again irrelevant. Guys I know who successfully date, this spin charisma and charm

Now you know why I hardly bother because my chances are basically zero.

[Wiseman2]

It seems you just want to argue about "Chads" and how the incels suffer because everyone else has it easier. 

Don't you get tired of regurgitating this incels rhetoric? 

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

It seems you just want to argue about "Chads" and how the incels suffer because everyone else has it easier. 

Don't you get tired of regurgitating this incels rhetoric? 

Is it rhetoric when there is a certain degree of factual truth to it? Next you will tell me looks are completely irrelevant and only personality matters.

I think some have it easier than others but run into other problems due to too much choice. Too much attention can be a bad thing.

Every single time I have found someone attractive I have lost our to the same type of person. You forget people don't magically adopt point's of view, they are gained through experience.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I'll agree to disagree.

Why? You’ve had no success. Why are you convinced you’re right and the rest of us who’ve had success are wrong? 

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

…if you get metaphorically kicked in the face over and over again what reason would there be to see that as positive? Please answer this question.

But you’re not getting kicked in the face over and over again. You had one brutal rejection in high school - which most of us have had by the way - and it’s clouded your mind ever since. You’ve barely put yourself out there enough to get “kicked in the face.”  This most recent woman didn’t reject you. Since your relationship ended, I can’t think of a time you actually asked out a woman on a date. And of course your ex accepted your date request, so that wasn’t a rejection. And before your ex were there even 10 women (not from online dating) that you asked out on dates? Or for their number? Even if it’s 2 dozen women (and I’m pretty sure it’s not close to that many) that’s just over one per year. Hardly “over and over”. But again, it’s your beliefs / mindset. I have no doubt you’re experiencing these events as massively huge blows to your self-esteem. Like they’re life altering events. But they’re really not. Therapy can help you discover reality.

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Did you weigh up your chance of success before asking people out or was it a case of blind faith and a wish?

Sometimes, like with my first girlfriend, I knew she was interested. Still terrified me to ask her out though. On the way to our first date I thought I was going to poop my pants. With my second girlfriend I really had no idea. We were in the same class in university and I found her really attractive, perhaps even “out of my league”, but I swallowed hard, again felt like I was going to poop my pants, but asked her anyways (this is a theme by the way and a decade later I found out I had a severe social anxiety disorder). And surprise, she said yes. And similar experiences throughout. Plenty of rejections. A few accepted. Also many many unrequited swipes on Tinder. 
 

 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Unattractive guys do one of two things, drop all standards or they friend zone those they want to date but who wont date them, am I wrong?

Completely wrong. Most people in healthy relationships across the attractiveness spectrum actually raise their standards on the things that are important. Shared core values, compatibility etc. And the friend zone is for fools. 

[Gebidozo]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Not really, I have tried numerous times and being that kinder more giving more supportive guy gets me nowhere when confronted with someone better looking and more successful. No problem, I accept that. I don't have a fun personality thats just how I am, take it or leave it. I am loyal and will walk the extra mile but that's irrelevant.

It's all about how much choice you have. Looks get you choice. 

I am honest, again irrelevant. Guys I know who successfully date, this spin charisma and charm

Now you know why I hardly bother because my chances are basically zero.

Oh, for the love of God!..😪

When will you understand that what makes you unattractive is exactly this? Your thinking, your worldview, your mentality, your attitude? This is ugly. This is not charismatic. This is not fun. 

I’ve seen physically ugly guys, dumb guys, quietly normal average guys attracting women. I’ve never seen a guy like you attracting women. Do you know why? Because women don’t like men who keep whining and complaining, men who’re envious of other people’s success, men who debase themselves, men who see women as shiny objects that can be bought with the right price. 

Everyone on this thread are telling you: if you want a chance at success, change this ugly, repelling, false incel way of looking at life. When will you finally understand that?

[Wiseman2]

Exactly. Please don't preen in the mirror when the incels attitude and combative extremist thinking is what is turning people off. 

[Gebidozo]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Is it rhetoric when there is a certain degree of factual truth to it? Next you will tell me looks are completely irrelevant and only personality matters.

I think some have it easier than others but run into other problems due to too much choice. Too much attention can be a bad thing.

Every single time I have found someone attractive I have lost our to the same type of person. You forget people don't magically adopt point's of view, they are gained through experience.

There is zero degree of factual truth in incel thinking. It’s pure rubbish. 

You know why? Because it’s born out of envy, self-pity, self-entitlement, latent aggression, cynicism, mercantilism, lack of faith, lack of hope, lack of love.

Nothing good or true can ever sprout from such roots.

[NuevoYorko]

OP - I have been reading and contributing to your threads off and on for years.  It's come to the point where if I don't read one and check in around page 15 or so, it's virtually indistinguishable from any of your other threads.  

I wonder if, at some point, you will have a "teachable moment" and be prepared to grow or learn something different from the self talk you have perfected to such an extent.   

What do you think?