Perspective

[ZA Dater]

36 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Did you use the word "date" when you asked her out?  If not, it's highly likely that she thinks it's a meeting between friends.

 

38 minutes ago, basil67 said:

If you agree that embarking on a charm/seduction offensive is murky, why do you complaining about not having those skills?

It might be murky but it does seem to give people a heck of a lot more success than I tend to have. Often I have been out and I see this combination of alcohol, charm and flirting and yes it seems to work a heck of a lot better than my preferred method of normal communication.

She has suggested meeting for coffee a few times, nothing comes of it, work on either end seems to get in the way or as she puts it "life" gets in the way. 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

It might be murky but it does seem to give people a heck of a lot more success than I tend to have.

As I said earlier, I've never met, let alone dated a guy who's a charmer, so I think you're still talking about a minimum of people.  So either you're hanging out with a bunch of sleazeballs or you're using the word charm to describe men who can easily connect with women.  Generally, 'fun and flirty' is what it takes

Quote

Often I have been out and I see this combination of alcohol, charm and flirting

Alcohol tends to send charm out the window.  So I think what you're actually seeing is the abovementioned fun and flirty.   And you're not having success because you're not flirty and I'm not sure how successful you are with having fun.

Charm really isn't very common at all, and loads of men who don't have it still find a girlfriend and partner

Edited April 2, 2024 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

19 minutes ago, basil67 said:

As I said earlier, I've never met, let alone dated a guy who's a charmer, so I think you're still talking about a minimum of people.  So either you're hanging out with a bunch of sleazeballs or you're using the word charm to describe men who can easily connect with women.  Generally, 'fun and flirty' is what it takes

Alcohol tends to send charm out the window.  So I think what you're actually seeing is the abovementioned fun and flirty.   And you're not having success because you're not flirty and I'm not sure how successful you are with having fun.

Charm really isn't very common at all, and loads of men who don't have it still find a girlfriend and partner

Ok fun and flirty, of which I am neither! The result being I need to work with what I do have to try and make up for what I do not.

[Weezy1973]

39 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok fun and flirty, of which I am neither! The result being I need to work with what I do have to try and make up for what I do not.

Honestly it’s just about confidence. Flirting will happen if you’re confident, but since you’re not, you don’t do it. In fact you pretty actively avoid situations where things might escalate to sex. Relationships and sex are usually come as a package deal. That being said, perhaps a niche for you would be to put in your profile that you’re asexual. That way you don’t have to worry about the sexual aspect of dating and can just be yourself.

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Honestly it’s just about confidence. Flirting will happen if you’re confident, but since you’re not, you don’t do it. In fact you pretty actively avoid situations where things might escalate to sex. Relationships and sex are usually come as a package deal. That being said, perhaps a niche for you would be to put in your profile that you’re asexual. That way you don’t have to worry about the sexual aspect of dating and can just be yourself.

Not true because I am never in those situations and not through choice. I'd go there with this latest interest because there is a high degree of attraction in other areas besides just physical. 

I avoid situations where yes I can land up with someone wanting sex with me who I am not interested in at all, I have been there and that is very awkward and rejection I need to dish out there does not make me feel very good at all. I find a personality can be very attractive, someone confident, outgoing, who can speak well, there is something very attractive about someone like that. 

[FredEire]

14 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Honestly it’s just about confidence. Flirting will happen if you’re confident, but since you’re not, you don’t do it. In fact you pretty actively avoid situations where things might escalate to sex. Relationships and sex are usually come as a package deal. That being said, perhaps a niche for you would be to put in your profile that you’re asexual. That way you don’t have to worry about the sexual aspect of dating and can just be yourself.

Yes this is a great point.

You do a lot of talking about what others bring to the table but not much about what you bring to the table. In fact you feel like it's enough when there's a lot that seems to be severely lacking that you don't seem to recognise.

A connection without sex is a friendship. You have severe reservations around sex but don't seem to recognise this. If you are romantically involved with someone they may be prepared to wait a while but eventually they will expect the relationship to progress towards sex because it's a natural part of romantic relationships.

I too would question if you might be asexual. My sister is ace and she uses similar terms about finding an emotional connection with someone removing the physical aspect. You might have some success in this aspect looking at ace social groups.

[Weezy1973]

33 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Not true because I am never in those situations and not through choice. I'd go there with this latest interest because there is a high degree of attraction in other areas besides just physical. 

The most prominent quality that all the women you’ve ever been attracted to have in common is that they aren’t interested in you romantically. So yes, that is you avoiding sex. 

[ZA Dater]

21 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Yes this is a great point.

You do a lot of talking about what others bring to the table but not much about what you bring to the table. In fact you feel like it's enough when there's a lot that seems to be severely lacking that you don't seem to recognise.

A connection without sex is a friendship. You have severe reservations around sex but don't seem to recognise this. If you are romantically involved with someone they may be prepared to wait a while but eventually they will expect the relationship to progress towards sex because it's a natural part of romantic relationships.

I too would question if you might be asexual. My sister is ace and she uses similar terms about finding an emotional connection with someone removing the physical aspect. You might have some success in this aspect looking at ace social groups.

Ok what I bring to the table, I am kind, thoughtful, loyal and I do take an interest in others. I have a fairly interesting life which is perhaps not representative of many, I have an interesting, albeit intimidating to some social circle of diverse but all very accomplished people in their field. I enjoy some of the finer things in life. Whether its a positive I do not know but I am not one of those macho loud guys, I am far more measured in my interaction with people in general. 

The only reservation I have about sex is the fact I cannot ever find mutual attraction, if I found that I think sex would be a natural progression from that, also I am not going to ever get romantically involved again unless there is that mutual attraction from the start. 

I am not going to sleep around for the sake of doing so even if I was that sexually desirable (which I am not). 

You also need to understand the close friends I have, for them women are about sex and nothing else, personality, that does not matter, its about getting them to bed and who has bedded the hottest one, which is very childish, being around this for years I really never bought into it, well I'd have liked to have had sex too but I quickly realized I do not have their look, their fun factor so was never going to be in the running.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

The most prominent quality that all the women you’ve ever been attracted to have in common is that they aren’t interested in you romantically. So yes, that is you avoiding sex. 

Because they do not find me romantically attractive, how is that in my control? I'd have slept with most of them given the chance, instead I just respected I was not their type.

[FredEire]

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok what I bring to the table, I am kind, thoughtful, loyal and I do take an interest in others. I have a fairly interesting life which is perhaps not representative of many, I have an interesting, albeit intimidating to some social circle of diverse but all very accomplished people in their field. I enjoy some of the finer things in life. Whether its a positive I do not know but I am not one of those macho loud guys, I am far more measured in my interaction with people in general. 

The only reservation I have about sex is the fact I cannot ever find mutual attraction, if I found that I think sex would be a natural progression from that, also I am not going to ever get romantically involved again unless there is that mutual attraction from the start. 

I am not going to sleep around for the sake of doing so even if I was that sexually desirable (which I am not). 

You also need to understand the close friends I have, for them women are about sex and nothing else, personality, that does not matter, its about getting them to bed and who has bedded the hottest one, which is very childish, being around this for years I really never bought into it, well I'd have liked to have had sex too but I quickly realized I do not have their look, their fun factor so was never going to be in the running.

If all of that is true it's things which apply to a friend as much as a partner which may be part of your problem.

Sex is very much a skill which you learn over time, if you've gone this long without ever experimenting in anything my guess is there's an element of discomfort or psychological stress involved at least.

Even if you met the perfect woman to be a sexual partner the experience would likely be very awkward, which is a whole other can of worms.

Having zero sexual experience also means you're not really sure what you like as sex is a huge part of relationships which can sometimes be a deal-breaker if you aren't sexually compatible.

There seems to be a whole lot about relationships you've never explored which means what you think you want lives entirely in your head and not in reality.

There comes a point when you realise as much as you may have put someone on a pedestal they are just a normal woman and human being like you, I think even if things were to play out as you'd imagined this may leave you disappointed.

Believe me no matter how beautiful the woman when she wakes up beside you with crazy hair and morning breath she's not going to look like this fantasy princess you imagined.

My opinion which you're probably not going to agree with is that if you meet someone you vibe with and they want to progress things sexually you should explore it as theres a lot of learning in that that you haven't done.

My suspicion is that the perfect partner you are imagining doesn't exist and is in fact a comfort blanket and protection against the fact you either aren't really interested in sex or have psychological issues around it.

Edited April 2, 2024 by FredEire

[FredEire]

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Because they do not find me romantically attractive, how is that in my control? I'd have slept with most of them given the chance, instead I just respected I was not their type.

Because often who we are most attracted to is determined by what we are most comfortable or familiar with, even if this is maladaptive.

There are countless examples of people who hop from one physically abusive partner to the next. Of course they are not planning to find someone who is going to beat them up, but this is what they are primed to look for often as a result of childhood experiences. If you aren't comfortable with sex as @Weezy1973 said it makes sense that you would feel the most attraction for people who have no interest in becoming sexually involved with you. It's safe.

[Weezy1973]

19 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Because they do not find me romantically attractive, how is that in my control? I'd have slept with most of them given the chance, instead I just respected I was not their type.

I’m not saying it’s in your control. Its subconscious. A defense mechanism. 

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, FredEire said:

If all of that is true it's things which apply to a friend as much as a partner which may be part of your problem.

Sex is very much a skill which you learn over time, if you've gone this long without ever experimenting in anything my guess is there's an element of discomfort or psychological stress involved at least.

Even if you met the perfect woman to be a sexual partner the experience would likely be very awkward, which is a whole other can of worms.

Having zero sexual experience also means you're not really sure what you like as sex is a huge part of relationships which can sometimes be a deal-breaker if you aren't sexually compatible.

There seems to be a whole lot about relationships you've never explored which means what you think you want lives entirely in your head and not in reality.

There comes a point when you realise as much as you may have put someone on a pedestal they are just a normal woman and human being like you, I think even if things were to play out as you'd imagined this may leave you disappointed.

Believe me no matter how beautiful the woman when she wakes up beside you with crazy hair and morning breath she's not going to look like this fantasy princess you imagined.

My opinion which you're probably not going to agree with is that if you meet someone you vibe with and they want to progress things sexually you should explore it as theres a lot of learning in that that you haven't done.

My suspicion is that the perfect partner you are imagining doesn't exist and is in fact a comfort blanket and protection against the fact you either aren't really interested in sex or have psychological issues around it.

Honestly I have met many people who I do find attractive, would date and would have sex with, these people do exist! Unfortunately for me they are not attracted to me and yes I imagine if I were to have sex with them I'd probably just be rejected based on a lack of experience, you try and imagine what that would feel like? I have said for years a lack of experience is wholly unattractive and you have confirmed it, which I actually appreciate because I'd rather someone tells a lemon as a lemon rather than pretends its an orange.

Sure, but if you are saying I need to "oh look at people you might not find attractive to gain experience" sorry but this is something I will never ever do, its disrespectful to the other person and I could not morally do that. 

Why would say a 42yo want to date an 40 yo sexually inexperienced guy when she can have someone who is experienced?

[FredEire]

Also beauty is entirely subjective. You may go on a date with someone is your tall, slim dream woman and then go out with another girl is completely undesirable.

If another guy went out with the same two girls he may think the one you don't like is more attractive. Thats because what makes him tick and attracts him is based on completely different experiences and preferences to yours.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Because often who we are most attracted to is determined by what we are most comfortable or familiar with, even if this is maladaptive.

There are countless examples of people who hop from one physically abusive partner to the next. Of course they are not planning to find someone who is going to beat them up, but this is what they are primed to look for often as a result of childhood experiences. If you aren't comfortable with sex as @Weezy1973 said it makes sense that you would feel the most attraction for people who have no interest in becoming sexually involved with you. It's safe.

Absolutely not true at all. First things I notice about people, their confidence, the way the speak, their mannerisms, how the conversation flows, do they have a pretty face and would I want sleep with them and how compatible our lifestyle would be or not be. 

You commented earlier on how guys in finance etc. use logic, a lot of what I do is apply my own logic rather than let emotions run away with everything.

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

Honestly I have met many people who I do find attractive, would date and would have sex with, these people do exist! Unfortunately for me they are not attracted to me and yes I imagine if I were to have sex with them I'd probably just be rejected based on a lack of experience, you try and imagine what that would feel like? I have said for years a lack of experience is wholly unattractive and you have confirmed it, which I actually appreciate because I'd rather someone tells a lemon as a lemon rather than pretends its an orange.

Sure, but if you are saying I need to "oh look at people you might not find attractive to gain experience" sorry but this is something I will never ever do, its disrespectful to the other person and I could not morally do that. 

Why would say a 42yo want to date an 40 yo sexually inexperienced guy when she can have someone who is experienced?

So get some experience, go out with the girl who wants a hookup on Tinder and have some fun, you'll learn a lot about yourself thats useful for when you do meet your tall slim dream woman.

I suspect if you did get to the moment of intimacy though you'd suddenly discover that that was never the issue to begin with.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Also beauty is entirely subjective. You may go on a date with someone is your tall, slim dream woman and then go out with another girl is completely undesirable.

If another guy went out with the same two girls he may think the one you don't like is more attractive. Thats because what makes him tick and attracts him is based on completely different experiences and preferences to yours.

Exactly the point I am trying to make we are attracted to different things some of the time with perhaps a few common aspects some of the time.

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

Absolutely not true at all. First things I notice about people, their confidence, the way the speak, their mannerisms, how the conversation flows, do they have a pretty face and would I want sleep with them and how compatible our lifestyle would be or not be. 

You commented earlier on how guys in finance etc. use logic, a lot of what I do is apply my own logic rather than let emotions run away with everything.

Yes but my point is they don't want to sleep with you. Therefore it's an entirely safe interaction that never actually progresses.

Its very common to think we want something that we are actually averse to in reality. But as I said you haven't learned these lessons yet.

[ZA Dater]

Just now, FredEire said:

So get some experience, go out with the girl who wants a hookup on Tinder and have some fun, you'll learn a lot about yourself thats useful for when you do meet your tall slim dream woman.

I suspect if you did get to the moment of intimacy though you'd suddenly discover that that was never the issue to begin with.

Absolutely no interest in doing that at all. If I am going to sleep with someone I want to date them and actually feel comfortable with them via communication and some common ground. If I do meet someone fantastic and a lack of experience gets me rejected, all it will do is confirm my thinking all along and that is just tough for me I suppose but it is how the world works and I cannot change that but I can try just be me and find some degree of contentedness in that.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, FredEire said:

Yes but my point is they don't want to sleep with you. Therefore it's an entirely safe interaction that never actually progresses.

Its very common to think we want something that we are actually averse to in reality. But as I said you haven't learned these lessons yet.

I could not realistically progress it even if I wanted to because I do not know how, that's the sad reality of being me. Many days are spent problem solving for others and the cold reality is I cannot solve even my own most basic problems.

One thing I do hope is that if by some complete miracle I ever do find mutual attraction there is enough good about me she could overlook a lack of intimate experience. Its why I really do try to carry my own values and morals in how I approach life. 

You are right I am seen as a safe interaction for them too because they can see I am inexperienced so they do not need to worry about having to rejected me if I tried to make romantic advances because its obvious I do not know how to.

[FredEire]

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I could not realistically progress it even if I wanted to because I do not know how, that's the sad reality of being me. Many days are spent problem solving for others and the cold reality is I cannot solve even my own most basic problems.

One thing I do hope is that if by some complete miracle I ever do find mutual attraction there is enough good about me she could overlook a lack of intimate experience. Its why I really do try to carry my own values and morals in how I approach life. 

You are right I am seen as a safe interaction for them too because they can see I am inexperienced so they do not need to worry about having to rejected me if I tried to make romantic advances because its obvious I do not know how to.

But you are not going to progress anything with someone who is not interested in you.

You talk a lot about the "sad reality of being you" and the roadblocks which make things impossible. Either you can throw your hands up in the air accept there's no way forward and continue being sad, or change your approach and find a way around those roadblocks. I suspect the second option carries an enormous amount of psychological difficulty for you.

If you choose to take the first option though I'd suggest you stop posting here as it's not at all useful. Just dedicate your life to work/hobbies and forget about relationships completely.

Edited April 2, 2024 by FredEire

[ZA Dater]

9 minutes ago, FredEire said:

But you are not going to progress anything with someone who is not interested in you.

You talk a lot about the "sad reality of being you" and the roadblocks which make things impossible. Either you can throw your hands up in the air accept there's no way forward and continue being sad, or change your approach and find a way around those roadblocks. I suspect the second option carries an enormous amount of psychological difficulty for you.

If you choose to take the first option though I'd suggest you stop posting here as it's not at all useful. Just dedicate your life to work/hobbies and forget about relationships completely.

Exactly the problem, nobody I am interested in is ever interested in me, this is the fundamental problem which I cannot seem to solve no matter what I seemingly do. The solution is not to change what I find attractive if I could even do that, its very difficult to explain but there are some people I meet them and I just find them attractive, I can find some confidence and the conversation flows well and yes I find them physically attractive too. If I find someone physically attractive and the conversation does not flow, its a complete non starter for me.

For a long time I tried to use work and hobbies to try feel less lonely and try feel like I was not missing out but I have missed out, that is very true. Every so often I'd meet someone and think "It would be very nice to spend lots of time with you, we really get along well". 

Like now, there is someone I enjoy spending time with, its unlikely to be viable from a relationship because once again my lack of attraction is a problem but its a lot better than having nothing.

[Gaeta]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Exactly the problem, nobody I am interested in is ever interested in me, this is the fundamental problem which I cannot seem to solve no matter what I seemingly do

Bold:

Sorry ZA,  you do 'nothing' about it. 

[Gaeta]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Why would say a 42yo want to date an 40 yo sexually inexperienced guy when she can have someone who is experienced?

Because women are complexed human beings that are looking for important qualities in a partner OTHER than sexual experience. If you have the qualities she is looking for in a man, if she finds you attractive, she will look pass your sexual inexperience. She will give it time and patience. 

 

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Exactly the problem, nobody I am interested in is ever interested in me, this is the fundamental problem which I cannot seem to solve no matter what I seemingly do. The solution is not to change what I find attractive if I could even do that, its very difficult to explain but there are some people I meet them and I just find them attractive, I can find some confidence and the conversation flows well and yes I find them physically attractive too. If I find someone physically attractive and the conversation does not flow, its a complete non starter for me.

For a long time I tried to use work and hobbies to try feel less lonely and try feel like I was not missing out but I have missed out, that is very true. Every so often I'd meet someone and think "It would be very nice to spend lots of time with you, we really get along well". 

Like now, there is someone I enjoy spending time with, its unlikely to be viable from a relationship because once again my lack of attraction is a problem but its a lot better than having nothing.

It's not a problem you can fix with logic, because your subconscious is drawing you to a certain type of individual who fits your biases and learned behaviours, who is comfortable for your negative outlook and view of the world and yourself. Someone who challenges this is not going to work as it pushes things in a direction which causes distress and cognitive dissonance.

You can't change what you like right now, but through changing your inner world you can change how you see and regard others and develop healthier habits. People who are suited for you will be attracted into your life rather than repelled.

Your assertion that you can logic your way out of this is flawed. You can keep trying the same thing over and over again if you want, but you'll continue being miserable. Best of luck with that if that's the route you decide to take.