Perspective

[Gebidozo]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Honestly I think this thread has established I am a useless individual so I might as well just own that.

And again you are wallowing in self pity, transparently fishing for compliments and awkwardly disguising your bruised ego, your bitterness and your pride with false humility.

 

[Gebidozo]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I am strong just unattractive and bitter. Being the honest, kind, thoughtful, caring person has got me nowhere but I am quite happy to be that person even if nobody else values that person. The reality is I can do everything right and still get it wrong.

I haven’t seen a shred of evidence for your alleged strength in any part of your gigantic epistolary opus. 

Bitter you are, indeed. And of course it’s unattractive. Women don’t like bitter men.

You aren’t honest. You won’t even honestly admit that your problem are your ideas, your treatment of women, your off-putting fake humility. 

Haven’t read anything kind from you yet. Not a single kind word about any woman or any man. Just bitterness and envy.

Thoughtful and caring? About yourself, yes, I can see that. I don’t know, maybe you are a great son to your mother and a good friend to some dude who has little success with women and therefore hasn’t incurred your envy. But I haven’t read anything in any of your posts that would make me believe that you care for women. Really, nothing at all. Complete coldness and self-centered thinking.

And seriously, come on… Do you really believe that anyone would find it attractive when a guy calls himself strong, honest, kind, thoughtful, and caring? Who would like such bragging? Pride is a huge turn-off!

And then in another message you call yourself a “useless individual”! So which is it - kind and caring or useless? I think you think you are great, but cynically and falsely ascribe to people who are trying to help you (!) the view that you’re a useless individual. And then, to top it, you hypocritically present that as your own “humble” evaluation of yourself.

Man… this is unattractive! THIS!

 

[NuevoYorko]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

 

The reality is this thread is making me re assess what I actually want based on what I can apparently get and truthfully the two are so far apart at the moment I am leaning toward binning the entire idea. There are a few weeks to go and some close confidants to consult but based on what you all say there is very little upside for me based on what I can get versus what I like and that being the case my view is I'd rather just accept it and have nothing. 

I've pointed this out to you before and you don't acknowledge it - but, are you aware that it's actually revolting to read of humans being spoken of in terms relative to objects?  What you want, what you can get, noTHING.   

You've been stuck like this for years on these fora and there is no sign of any movement.  At least if you could recognize your transactional and absolutely superficial and linear view of women and relationships,  and how this is not EVER going to get you anywhere, you might have some kind of way out of your sad loop.   

As it stands - you're correct.  You are exactly like a person who has a certain budget to buy a THING - say, a car or a home, things that are important or even crucial to have -  but the THING they really want costs many times over that budget.   This person then chooses to not have a car or a home.  

Also not to do a single thing to increase their chances of having a car or a home.   

And then tops it off with making this self created, childish conundrum something to whine and moan bitterly about for years.  

It's ridiculous.

Edited April 8 by NuevoYorko

[NuevoYorko]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

 Its always about what is lacking not what there actually is

That's all you ever talk about.  What is lacking.  In yourself and others.

[FredEire]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I am strong just unattractive and bitter. Being the honest, kind, thoughtful, caring person has got me nowhere but I am quite happy to be that person even if nobody else values that person. The reality is I can do everything right and still get it wrong.

The more I read the more impossible it seems, the more inclined I am to take whatever good I can find and enjoy that for what it is. 

I see it this way

1: Find mutual attraction: about as likely a finding oil in my backyard

2: The need to see if I am compatible with that person

3: Do compromises needed to properly engage with the person

4: Be the kind caring thoughtful, generous person I know I am.

On the ladder I can do 4 pretty well but none of the other seems to work and logically I ask myself, is it really such a loss to choose a friendship over all of this? Its probably why when I am rejected over and over again my friends comment is "just be her friend", maybe he can see I am unsuitable for anything more.

But there is plenty to work on.

1. You have very low self-esteem

2. You take yourself way too seriously

3. You are afraid to make approaches and ask women on dates

4. You don't go to therapy.

5. You are a massive overthinker

6. You don't have platonic female friendships as you would only be friends with women you want to date.

7. You could do with expanding/changing your circle of friends as they don't seem to be suited to you

8. I'm unaware if you do any kind of exercise/meditation/self-defence, which would help you massively

9. You don't meet many people

10. You are stuck on getting into pointless friendzone relationships rather than ditching this and looking for more meaningful ones

I could go on and on. These are all things you can change through practical actions, today.

But if you are set on thinking the world owes you something and you have nothing to change well then, good luck with that.

[NuevoYorko]

41 minutes ago, FredEire said:

 

3. You are afraid to make approaches and ask women on dates

 

This one is the most aggravating.   

Guy feels entitled to a woman who is a career dynamo and looks like a supermodel, he will "settle" for nothing "less" (quotes because I don't think that people who do not look like models or have an important job are "less" than those who do).  

Not only will he do nothing to rise to the level of these women he desires - he will not even ask them out.

OK.  He is shy / has low self esteem and just cannot.  I can empathize with that.

But then to use this all as an eternal platform for self pity and bitterness?  

No.  

If the guy would ask out every supermodel looking woman he encountered one after the other for months / years on end (maybe instead of writing posts with that frequency) sooner or later, the odds might fall in his favor and one would go on a date with him.  

He'd also develop some social qualities by default.

Edited April 8 by NuevoYorko

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

This one is the most aggravating.   

Guy feels entitled to a woman who is a career dynamo and looks like a supermodel, he will "settle" for nothing "less" (quotes because I don't think that people who do not look like models or have an important job are "less" than those who do).  

Not only will he do nothing to rise to the level of these women he desires - he will not even ask them out.

OK.  He is shy / has low self esteem and just cannot.  I can empathize with that.

But then to use this all as an eternal platform for self pity and bitterness?  

No.  

If the guy would ask out every supermodel looking woman he encountered one after the other for months / years on end (maybe instead of writing posts with that frequency) sooner or later, the odds might fall in his favor and one would go on a date with him.  

He'd also develop some social qualities by default.

Fully agree.

I'd have a lot more empathy for the points he's making if he was approaching every woman he was into, chatting to her and ending with "You + me for coffee and lunch next week, what do you think?"

Instead he meekly asks them to some shares social event and awkwardly orbits them hoping they will fall into his arms, then calls it rejection.

Dude that isn't rejection, you haven't even tried! You've put yourself in the friendzone, if anything.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

Dude that isn't rejection, you haven't even tried! You've put yourself in the friendzone, if anything.

Which is fine because apparently there is so much wrong with me they would never go on a date with me anyway! Unlike some I'd actually like to establish if someone is interested before asking someone out, especially when heck there are no good stories to tell but apparently that is normal if you are no prepared to "accept your level". Why bother asking people out if you know they are going to say no and the exchange would be so awkward.

Seems to me there is a lot less "wrong" in a friend scenario so thanks for that! 

I'll just accept what is, there is too much to fix especially because loneliness aside I am quite happy with the person I am, I value myself even the dating world does not. Years ago I had a friend, her and I were studying together and I recall her comment about dating "its a game that turns good people bad, makes good people bitter because of constant rejection", that has stuck to me and it proved to be pretty true.

 

[FredEire]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Which is fine because apparently there is so much wrong with me they would never go on a date with me anyway! Unlike some I'd actually like to establish if someone is interested before asking someone out, especially when heck there are no good stories to tell but apparently that is normal if you are no prepared to "accept your level". Why bother asking people out if you know they are going to say no and the exchange would be so awkward.

Seems to me there is a lot less "wrong" in a friend scenario so thanks for that! 

I'll just accept what is, there is too much to fix especially because loneliness aside I am quite happy with the person I am, I value myself even the dating world does not. Years ago I had a friend, her and I were studying together and I recall her comment about dating "its a game that turns good people bad, makes good people bitter because of constant rejection", that has stuck to me and it proved to be pretty true.

 

The way you find out if they're interested is ask them out on a date, have a pair of stones and be braver.

Asking them to social events and hanging around like a bad smell will turn off even women who were interested, because they'll be wishing you had just asked them out for a coffee the two of you.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, FredEire said:

But there is plenty to work on.

1. You have very low self-esteem

2. You take yourself way too seriously

3. You are afraid to make approaches and ask women on dates

4. You don't go to therapy.

5. You are a massive overthinker

6. You don't have platonic female friendships as you would only be friends with women you want to date.

7. You could do with expanding/changing your circle of friends as they don't seem to be suited to you

8. I'm unaware if you do any kind of exercise/meditation/self-defence, which would help you massively

9. You don't meet many people

10. You are stuck on getting into pointless friendzone relationships rather than ditching this and looking for more meaningful ones

I could go on and on. These are all things you can change through practical actions, today.

But if you are set on thinking the world owes you something and you have nothing to change well then, good luck with that.

The world owes me and nobody else anything, some just have a much easier time than others, that is the reality of it. I am quite happy with the circle of social connection thanks, if not useful for dating they are nice people to spend time with. Number 4 on the list has been addressed many times, I am glad you find it beneficial, I do not and its created no value in my life, what it did do was make me feel like a total misfit and I can do without that. Correction I do have perhaps two close female confidants, people who actually do understand me both I have known for years. Yes, I work out, not sure how this is supposed to help me and no I do not want to partake in a hiking club. 

Why approach someone who has better options (or more often than not is not single to begin with) and will just reject me anyway, what is accomplished there, another slice of already low confidence gone? No if anything I need to find things which build up my confidence and no drain it further. I meet plenty of people in the hobby business side of life, there are no dating prospects here.

Thanks anyway.

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, FredEire said:

The way you find out if they're interested is ask them out on a date, have a pair of stones and be braver.

Asking them to social events and hanging around like a bad smell will turn off even women who were interested, because they'll be wishing you had just asked them out for a coffee the two of you.

For what, to be rejected anyway, nobody who has any degree of dating choice is going to choose me, I learnt that recently, does not matter what foot I put forward, heck if they were interested they would show some interest but they do not. 

Heck even my friends tell me to pursue the least attractive person in any given social interaction so that is pretty telling, whats "perfect" for me.

 

[FredEire]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

For what, to be rejected anyway, nobody who has any degree of dating choice is going to choose me, I learnt that recently, does not matter what foot I put forward, heck if they were interested they would show some interest but they do not. 

Heck even my friends tell me to pursue the least attractive person in any given social interaction so that is pretty telling, whats "perfect" for me.

 

Lol. Well if you refuse to even try then good luck to you, it's never going to work but you can enjoy feeling sorry for yourself and convincing yourself you're being rejecting when you're actually rejecting yourself.

[ZA Dater]

13 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Lol. Well if you refuse to even try then good luck to you, it's never going to work but you can enjoy feeling sorry for yourself and convincing yourself you're being rejecting when you're actually rejecting yourself.

You right. Tried, tried and tried again and guess what, the same result and when I look who these people did end up dating it became pretty darn clear why I was rejected but you know its easier to say "yes but there are lots of people" or "yes but you know those things really do not matter, really they do not". 

I am tired of trying, been trying for years in the time I have been trying people have got married and have kids and some of those kids are ten years old, what have I accomplished, nothing whatsoever but I suppose that is my fault to and yes in part it might be but not exclusively so.

Se la vie

[FredEire]

5 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

I haven’t seen a shred of evidence for your alleged strength in any part of your gigantic epistolary opus. 

Bitter you are, indeed. And of course it’s unattractive. Women don’t like bitter men.

You aren’t honest. You won’t even honestly admit that your problem are your ideas, your treatment of women, your off-putting fake humility. 

Haven’t read anything kind from you yet. Not a single kind word about any woman or any man. Just bitterness and envy.

Thoughtful and caring? About yourself, yes, I can see that. I don’t know, maybe you are a great son to your mother and a good friend to some dude who has little success with women and therefore hasn’t incurred your envy. But I haven’t read anything in any of your posts that would make me believe that you care for women. Really, nothing at all. Complete coldness and self-centered thinking.

And seriously, come on… Do you really believe that anyone would find it attractive when a guy calls himself strong, honest, kind, thoughtful, and caring? Who would like such bragging? Pride is a huge turn-off!

And then in another message you call yourself a “useless individual”! So which is it - kind and caring or useless? I think you think you are great, but cynically and falsely ascribe to people who are trying to help you (!) the view that you’re a useless individual. And then, to top it, you hypocritically present that as your own “humble” evaluation of yourself.

Man… this is unattractive! THIS!

 

It seems like a red flag when people ascribe adjectives to themselves, in my opinion.

For strong read stubborn.

For honest read rude.

For kind read cowardly.

For thoughtful read massive overthinker.

For caring read possessive 

Why the need to put all these labels on yourself when it should be something other people do. Who are you trying to convince.

It gives me the heebie-jeebies whenever a girl tells me "I'm just so kind" or "I'm just so honest" as it seems like a pre-emptive self-justification for some awful behaviour.

Edited April 8 by FredEire

[NuevoYorko]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

 you can enjoy feeling sorry for yourself 

It's a true avocation.  He won't do anything that might stand it its way.

[basil67]

8 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Be the kind caring thoughtful, generous person I know I am.

I have seen no evidence of this in all your 7000 odd posts.  What I see is a man who not only dislikes himself, but also speaks of most others in very unpleasant terms.  The only people I've ever read you speak about in kind terms are women who are slim, pretty and intelligent.  This thread alone is full of insults for people who aren't up to your high standards.

You describe the men you socialise with as arrogant and players.  Apparently you don't particularly like funny/witty guys.  Other men just lie and exaggerate.  You describe the women you've dated without exception as being unattractive, overweight, dull, boring, can only talk on single topics.

Your words are the absolute antitheses of being a kind, caring thoughtful generous person.  Yes, you might help the odd soul who's in need, but this does not offset all the nasty things you say about others.   

That you have hardly any friends and no love life is entirely because of your horribly judgmental attitude.

 

[FredEire]

7 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I have seen no evidence of this in all your 7000 odd posts.  What I see is a man who not only dislikes himself, but also speaks of most others in very unpleasant terms.  The only people I've ever read you speak about in kind terms are women who are slim, pretty and intelligent.  This thread alone is full of insults for people who aren't up to your high standards.

You describe the men you socialise with as arrogant and players.  Apparently you don't particularly like funny/witty guys.  Other men just lie and exaggerate.  You describe the women you've dated without exception as being unattractive, overweight, dull, boring, can only talk on single topics.

Your words are the absolute antitheses of being a kind, caring thoughtful generous person.  Yes, you might help the odd soul who's in need, but this does not offset all the nasty things you say about others.   

That you have hardly any friends and no love life is entirely because of your horribly judgmental attitude.

 

Indeed. I think labelling yourself is a sign of low self-esteem and not really knowing what you're actually good at or your qualities really are. You're trying to convince yourself but as @basil67 says you're not demonstrating these qualities. The opposite in fact.

[NuevoYorko]

OP, would you please take a look at your very first topic posted here back in 2015?   I was here then too.  

You were a little less bitter and jaded back then, but honestly your situation was exactly the same as now.  The advice from other posters - EXACTLY the same as now, only with a little more lean towards "pickup artistry."

Your excuses - exactly the same as now.

You have not developed even a minute speck in almost a decade.  

Why do you permit this for yourself?   GROW!!!  

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

OP, would you please take a look at your very first topic posted here back in 2015?   I was here then too.  

You were a little less bitter and jaded back then, but honestly your situation was exactly the same as now.  The advice from other posters - EXACTLY the same as now, only with a little more lean towards "pickup artistry."

Your excuses - exactly the same as now.

You have not developed even a minute speck in almost a decade.  

Why do you permit this for yourself?   GROW!!!  

Well for a decade I had the same nonsense from OLD, I went out and saw the same things which people go great lengths to tell me are not true. I have never stopped trying since that fist post but yes the results remain the same and bitter and jaded is a byproduct of those results. 

My point of view remains the same and will not likely differ, to find confidence a person needs to have a degree of self belief and that is derived from a degree of success. No success means no self belief which means no self confidence and so this cycle goes round and round. As well meaning as the advice is when I start reading about "leagues" and "well you know you should give other people a chance who perhaps you do not find as attractive, it may build in time" , when I read both of those i just switch off. 

That advice will never resonate with me ever. Likewise the tired "therapy fixes all", been there done that, it did nothing for me whatsoever.

My conclusion is no matter what I do I cannot ever experience mutual attraction, maybe I simply expect too much, maybe I spent too much time around people who are attractive overall, maybe I have seen all too well the fact superficial absolutely does matter and more often than not will be the deciding factor, maybe I got lost in the idea that it was possible to overcome the huge odds I would have trying to date.

Whatever, this is the outcome, chronic loneliness and absolutely no prospects to change that, just the same as it always was. 

Thanks everyone.

 

[Gebidozo]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

My point of view remains the same and will not likely differ, to find confidence a person needs to have a degree of self belief and that is derived from a degree of success. No success means no self belief which means no self confidence and so this cycle goes round and round

This is one of the falsest things I’ve read in a while.

The truth is this: success is derived from self belief and confidence. 

The truth is 180 degrees opposite of what you think!

Your view of reality is fundamentally wrong and distorted.

[ZA Dater]

9 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

This is one of the falsest things I’ve read in a while.

The truth is this: success is derived from self belief and confidence. 

The truth is 180 degrees opposite of what you think!

Your view of reality is fundamentally wrong and distorted.

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. 

[ZA Dater]

15 hours ago, basil67 said:

I have seen no evidence of this in all your 7000 odd posts.  What I see is a man who not only dislikes himself, but also speaks of most others in very unpleasant terms.  The only people I've ever read you speak about in kind terms are women who are slim, pretty and intelligent.  This thread alone is full of insults for people who aren't up to your high standards.

You describe the men you socialise with as arrogant and players.  Apparently you don't particularly like funny/witty guys.  Other men just lie and exaggerate.  You describe the women you've dated without exception as being unattractive, overweight, dull, boring, can only talk on single topics.

Your words are the absolute antitheses of being a kind, caring thoughtful generous person.  Yes, you might help the odd soul who's in need, but this does not offset all the nasty things you say about others.   

That you have hardly any friends and no love life is entirely because of your horribly judgmental attitude.

 

Well being honest is quite a good trait, I call things as I see them. Suddenly its a crime to have standards, OK, that is interesting but thanks nonetheless. Suddenly its wrong to not like particular people, again I have no problem not being liked much like I see no problem in not liking funny guys. Equally I do not like apathetic people who know nothing about the world around them. You forget while I can give it, I can certainly take all manner of insults, there are some in this very thread, I could not give a continental.

You right I judge.......and so does everyone else!

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. 

And yours isn’t working. At all. 

[FredEire]

6 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

And yours isn’t working. At all. 

Yes, he is perfectly entitled to his opinion, of course.

But LS is a place to come for other viewpoints on relationship affairs when your own opinions and approaches have not worked out for you. It is a place where you can get other people's takes, and see if you might make some useful changes based on them.

Instead OP here is in a Mexican standoff with everyone here. He lets our opinions go in one ear and out the other while refusing to budge an inch on his approach which, by his own admission, have only brought him misery and loneliness.

It seems like what he wants is not for us to give him insights but for him to convince us that his worldview is correct and make him feel better by agreeing that he is not enough and the awful unappreciative women he wants to date just don't care about all the good qualities he lists out about himself.

Which is massively egotistical, as well as a huge waste of time.

 

[ZA Dater]

34 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

And yours isn’t working. At all. 

That's fine, it gets me the odd person to go to events and have coffee with. Where it actually matters in life I am respected and I would far rather be respected than liked. 

If what you have going works for you great, more power to you.