Perspective

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, FredEire said:

He's now listed a number of examples of women who were interested in him in some way. That should be a confidence booster and proof that the "sexual marketplace" has not completely abandoned him, but instead only the beautiful unobtainable women count and the women he isn't attracted to are almost subhuman in comparison.

Of course only the people I find attractive count. Others, simply not for me as there was no attraction and thus no interest. Again I am not going to hookup for the sake of hooking up.

Can you not see how poor the experiences of listed were, how can any of those be seen as positive.

[Gebidozo]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Of course only the people I find attractive count. Others, simply not for me as there was no attraction and thus no interest. Again I am not going to hookup for the sake of hooking up.

Can you not see how poor the experiences of listed were, how can any of those be seen as positive.

Dude, getting any woman to be interested in you is a positive experience. And when I say “in you”, I mean “in any of us”. 

I don’t like to brag (whom am I kidding… I love to brag😁), but there have been dozens, possibly even a hundred or more women interested in me. Every single time that happened, I was flattered. Every time, I saw it as a beautiful thing and a great confidence boost. The only instance it could be awkward or unpleasant is when I was in a relationship with someone else at the time. 

Your contempt to women is so repulsive. You don’t appreciate women, don’t respect them, don’t love them. Women don’t want to date a guy who doesn’t love them. Why would they?

You remind me of those kids whose parents force them to learn music. They practice with angry faces, they moan and complain, they roll their eyes, they envy other kids who are better at music. But there is no secret here: they are bad at music because they don’t love music. They don’t love it, and it doesn’t love them back. You can’t excel at something you don’t love.

[basil67]

On 4/9/2024 at 6:33 AM, ZA Dater said:

I am tired of trying, been trying for years in the time I have been trying people have got married and have kids and some of those kids are ten years old, what have I accomplished, nothing whatsoever but I suppose that is my fault to and yes in part it might be but not exclusively so.

How is you remaining single partially other people's faults?   

20 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

That advice will never resonate with me ever. Likewise the tired "therapy fixes all", been there done that, it did nothing for me whatsoever.

Literally nobody has said "therapy fixes all".  It's not going to turn a neuro diverse person into a neuro typical person.  It's not going to turn someone who has anxiety into someone who's convinced that everything will be 100% OK.  But they can give strategies to help the individual person navigate relationships and life.   Also, there are many different types of therapy, and how well they work depends on the type of therapy and how well that type works for the individual.  By the sounds of it, you've done talk therapy and it didn't work for you.  

I read you continually making statements such as "and here we are back to me having to do X".  Yes, I know we keep giving you the same advice.  But you keep come back knowing that the advice we've been giving has not changed in 10 years.   As already know what to expect, why do you get frustrated when what you expect happens?   Surely, you would have a mental note of "oh, that's right...these people don't understand, they aren't of any assistance, so I'd be better off not bothering here" 

[ZA Dater]

17 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Dude, getting any woman to be interested in you is a positive experience. And when I say “in you”, I mean “in any of us”. 

I don’t like to brag (whom am I kidding… I love to brag😁), but there have been dozens, possibly even a hundred or more women interested in me. Every single time that happened, I was flattered. Every time, I saw it as a beautiful thing and a great confidence boost. The only instance it could be awkward or unpleasant is when I was in a relationship with someone else at the time. 

Your contempt to women is so repulsive. You don’t appreciate women, don’t respect them, don’t love them. Women don’t want to date a guy who doesn’t love them. Why would they?

You remind me of those kids whose parents force them to learn music. They practice with angry faces, they moan and complain, they roll their eyes, they envy other kids who are better at music. But there is no secret here: they are bad at music because they don’t love music. They don’t love it, and it doesn’t love them back. You can’t excel at something you don’t love.

You right I have no love for dating when there is zero mutual attraction. I do not find interest from people I have no interest in flattering at all, quite the opposite actually and I really do not see that interest as positive at all. 

I have contempt for many aspects of dating yes, that is true only because almost none have been positive. There is far more positive to be had spending time around people I do find attractive, do get along well with and connect with at least conversationally.

Others around me have had far more positive experiences.

[Weezy1973]

38 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Others around me have had far more positive experiences.

The interpretation of an experience as positive or negative is almost exclusively a product of our own minds. If someone is attracted to us, regardless of whether or not we find them attractive, can be interpreted as positive. As a compliment. But you take it as a negative. Do you wonder at all why some people would interpret the exact same event as positive rather than negative? Wouldn’t you rather live as someone that views things like that as positive?  We’re just talking about subjective interpretation here. 
 

Again, most people can relate to the “people I’m attracted to aren’t interested in me, and the people that are interested in me, I’m not attracted to” mantra that you repeat over and over as most of us have experienced it at some time in their life. Most of us have tried dating people we’re not really attracted to at some point in our lives. Most of us have experienced fear of rejection. And felt the pain of rejection, and feeling undesirable. Many people have felt at some point there is something intrinsically wrong with themselves, and felt that the world was unfair for not making them more attractive in some way. 
 

The difference is that most of us have learned and grown from these experiences. You literally, and adamantly, refuse to do so. Like angrily refuse. And you’re here, in the same place, lamenting the exact same things as you were a decade ago. And equally unwilling to try anything different. Even something as simple as asking someone you’re attracted to out on a date. Just utter complete refusal to do something that billions of people have done throughout history and quite frankly has kept our species going all these. And yes we understand why. You’ve experienced some painful rejections in your life, particularly a humiliating rejection back in high school. But even if there are “good” reasons for your fear of rejection, doesn’t change the fact that the only way forward is to face the fear and come to the realization that rejection only hurts because of your own personal interpretation of the event as a negative. And therapy can help with that.

[FredEire]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Of course only the people I find attractive count. Others, simply not for me as there was no attraction and thus no interest. Again I am not going to hookup for the sake of hooking up.

Can you not see how poor the experiences of listed were, how can any of those be seen as positive.

Of course I'm not saying you have to hook up with them (as I said in my post which you obviously didn't take in).

But the level of contempt you have for these women, women who are showing you interest, demonstrates that you do not like and deem as trash anyone who does not live up to your standards. But then you wonder why other people treat you like trash, you get back what you put in.

And the thing you fail to realise is that the women you hold in high-esteem are people as much as those women you deem unworthy are people, and this attitude comes across and is not attractive at all.

Take for example a scenario in which you find your picture perfect wonder woman, and you start dating. You go out with her and her friends, some of whom are short, chubby and ugly. You would view talking to them as a hassle and a chore that has to be done so you can please your wonder woman. Of course they would not take this well but neither would your girlfriend, who would probably be quite upset both by your level of clinginess and the way you regard people she cares about.

There's a number of things about your attitude that do not translate well at all to real life dating.

[FredEire]

24 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

The interpretation of an experience as positive or negative is almost exclusively a product of our own minds. If someone is attracted to us, regardless of whether or not we find them attractive, can be interpreted as positive. As a compliment. But you take it as a negative. Do you wonder at all why some people would interpret the exact same event as positive rather than negative? Wouldn’t you rather live as someone that views things like that as positive?  We’re just talking about subjective interpretation here. 
 

Again, most people can relate to the “people I’m attracted to aren’t interested in me, and the people that are interested in me, I’m not attracted to” mantra that you repeat over and over as most of us have experienced it at some time in their life. Most of us have tried dating people we’re not really attracted to at some point in our lives. Most of us have experienced fear of rejection. And felt the pain of rejection, and feeling undesirable. Many people have felt at some point there is something intrinsically wrong with themselves, and felt that the world was unfair for not making them more attractive in some way. 
 

The difference is that most of us have learned and grown from these experiences. You literally, and adamantly, refuse to do so. Like angrily refuse. And you’re here, in the same place, lamenting the exact same things as you were a decade ago. And equally unwilling to try anything different. Even something as simple as asking someone you’re attracted to out on a date. Just utter complete refusal to do something that billions of people have done throughout history and quite frankly has kept our species going all these. And yes we understand why. You’ve experienced some painful rejections in your life, particularly a humiliating rejection back in high school. But even if there are “good” reasons for your fear of rejection, doesn’t change the fact that the only way forward is to face the fear and come to the realization that rejection only hurts because of your own personal interpretation of the event as a negative. And therapy can help with that.

Yes, it seems a bit like arrested development. It's like an emo teenager in their room listening to My Chemical Romance. Ugh, people are so stupid and beneath me, I hate you Mom, etc...

There's a great story about Morrissey from the Smiths, who was a famously miserable bastard, a great artist but very unlikeable in many ways due to his self-pity paired with his giant ego. He spent an hour telling an interviewer how he was unloveable and nobody loved him. As they left the interview there was a crowd of people outside screaming "We love you Morrissey". The point is it wasn't his chosen people that loved him, high intellectuals and people he deemed to be superior to the fans, who were just useless plebs.

It's a very unlikeable quality in general but you can overlook it in a 15-year-old boy. Certainly not a 40-year-old man.

Edited April 10 by FredEire

[FredEire]

I have a friend who reminds me a lot of you sometimes. I've mentioned him before in the thread. He's 30, still a virgin and seems to be waiting for things to fall into his lap.

I notice whenever we'd go out that he doesn't really engage with anyone. When we'd meet a crowd of people he would turn his nose up at them and proclaim it wasn't the calibre of people he was looking for, and when in conversations with people he would barely engage with them before turning away.

He's matured a lot in recent years thankfully but there was a few occasions in the past he would lash out angrily at me during the night, especially when I was having success with a girl and he was on his own. It was always about something unrelated.

Sadly he doesn't see any relation between his social habits and his lack of relationships with women, and stubbornly sticks to the belief that rigidly picking and choosing perfect scenarios in his head will get him somewhere rather than going with the flow and saying yes to the experience.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

The interpretation of an experience as positive or negative is almost exclusively a product of our own minds. If someone is attracted to us, regardless of whether or not we find them attractive, can be interpreted as positive. As a compliment. But you take it as a negative. Do you wonder at all why some people would interpret the exact same event as positive rather than negative? Wouldn’t you rather live as someone that views things like that as positive?  We’re just talking about subjective interpretation here. 
 

Again, most people can relate to the “people I’m attracted to aren’t interested in me, and the people that are interested in me, I’m not attracted to” mantra that you repeat over and over as most of us have experienced it at some time in their life. Most of us have tried dating people we’re not really attracted to at some point in our lives. Most of us have experienced fear of rejection. And felt the pain of rejection, and feeling undesirable. Many people have felt at some point there is something intrinsically wrong with themselves, and felt that the world was unfair for not making them more attractive in some way. 
 

The difference is that most of us have learned and grown from these experiences. You literally, and adamantly, refuse to do so. Like angrily refuse. And you’re here, in the same place, lamenting the exact same things as you were a decade ago. And equally unwilling to try anything different. Even something as simple as asking someone you’re attracted to out on a date. Just utter complete refusal to do something that billions of people have done throughout history and quite frankly has kept our species going all these. And yes we understand why. You’ve experienced some painful rejections in your life, particularly a humiliating rejection back in high school. But even if there are “good” reasons for your fear of rejection, doesn’t change the fact that the only way forward is to face the fear and come to the realization that rejection only hurts because of your own personal interpretation of the event as a negative. And therapy can help with that.

You right being attractive to someone I do not take as a compliment. Haha yes I suppose we can pretend negative it positive, its called removing oneself from reality and granted it can be quite affective at ignoring reality. I can hazard a guess why someone may see that as positive, someone so starved of attention would see any attention as positive and that for me is negative because I have been down this road and it can lead to all sort of manipulation.

Learned what exactly? Grow how exactly? I refuse to settle and I refuse to bend over backwards and compromise to the extent what i end up with has zero attractive qualities at all and I am simply dating that person because well they find me attractive and I can find anyone else who does find me attractive, please do not tell me this scenario does not exist because i know a few people who did exactly this and landed up extremely unhappy at best and divorced at worst.

Ok so now rejection is not negative. Ok if you say so.

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

You right being attractive to someone I do not take as a compliment. Haha yes I suppose we can pretend negative it positive, its called removing oneself from reality and granted it can be quite affective at ignoring reality. I can hazard a guess why someone may see that as positive, someone so starved of attention would see any attention as positive and that for me is negative because I have been down this road and it can lead to all sort of manipulation.

Learned what exactly? Grow how exactly? I refuse to settle and I refuse to bend over backwards and compromise to the extent what i end up with has zero attractive qualities at all and I am simply dating that person because well they find me attractive and I can find anyone else who does find me attractive, please do not tell me this scenario does not exist because i know a few people who did exactly this and landed up extremely unhappy at best and divorced at worst.

Ok so now rejection is not negative. Ok if you say so.

Yes, that's exactly what you're doing.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

Of course I'm not saying you have to hook up with them (as I said in my post which you obviously didn't take in).

But the level of contempt you have for these women, women who are showing you interest, demonstrates that you do not like and deem as trash anyone who does not live up to your standards. But then you wonder why other people treat you like trash, you get back what you put in.

And the thing you fail to realise is that the women you hold in high-esteem are people as much as those women you deem unworthy are people, and this attitude comes across and is not attractive at all.

Take for example a scenario in which you find your picture perfect wonder woman, and you start dating. You go out with her and her friends, some of whom are short, chubby and ugly. You would view talking to them as a hassle and a chore that has to be done so you can please your wonder woman. Of course they would not take this well but neither would your girlfriend, who would probably be quite upset both by your level of clinginess and the way you regard people she cares about.

There's a number of things about your attitude that do not translate well at all to real life dating.

Not true, I interact with a diverse cross section of people each day and I treat them all with respect and kindness. I get treated like trash in the dating world, best of intentions derive the worst of results. I always find it highly amusing I used to go out with the view of trying to connect with people, my friends went out with the intention of hooking up, guess which was more successful. 

You get it wrong, I have not issue talking to people I do not find attractive, none at all, that would be a very stupid approach to take and would not work in everyday life.

I am simply indifferent to dating, people seem to not understand I am not prepared to settle. I am not prepared to date people I do not find attractive, its really that simple. Would you agree people should only date people they find attractive? 

[FredEire]

7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Not true, I interact with a diverse cross section of people each day and I treat them all with respect and kindness. I get treated like trash in the dating world, best of intentions derive the worst of results. I always find it highly amusing I used to go out with the view of trying to connect with people, my friends went out with the intention of hooking up, guess which was more successful. 

You get it wrong, I have not issue talking to people I do not find attractive, none at all, that would be a very stupid approach to take and would not work in everyday life.

I am simply indifferent to dating, people seem to not understand I am not prepared to settle. I am not prepared to date people I do not find attractive, its really that simple. Would you agree people should only date people they find attractive? 

You are treated like trash because you regard others you do not deem attractive as trash. This is very clear from your posts in this thread.

And for the thousandth time yes, of course. I'm not suggesting you get into a relationship with someone you don't find attractive.

But you have to value people equally as people. If you look down on some the people you hold in his esteem will see this and it will not be attractive.

Edited April 10 by FredEire

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Yes, that's exactly what you're doing.

Perhaps, if my reality is only being able to date people I find unattractive and uninteresting them yes I'd rather just ignore reality and rather establish a more positive narrative. That narrative is spending small amounts of time with people I do find attractive even though they wont date me. 

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

Perhaps, if my reality is only being able to date people I find unattractive and uninteresting them yes I'd rather just ignore reality and rather establish a more positive narrative. That narrative is spending small amounts of time with people I do find attractive even though they wont date me. 

This is important, it's your reality, not an objective truth.

And it sucks, you are lonely and miserable. If you don't want to change, why are you here again?

[ZA Dater]

13 minutes ago, FredEire said:

You are treated like trash because you regard others you do not deem attractive as trash. This is very clear from your posts in this thread.

And for the thousandth time yes, of course. I'm not suggesting you get into a relationship with someone you don't find attractive.

But you have to value people equally as people. If you look down on some the people you hold in his esteem will see this and it will not be attractive.

Where did I say look down at people? Quite the opposite is true, yes I will not date people I find attractive but frankly that just means not going on a date with them to begin with not sure how they is perceived as treating people like trash. You forget because I cannot interact with people on a romantic level I interact with everyone the same, there is a universal way I interact which makes the pedestal nonsense even less believable. Along with being unable to interact on the romantic level I also cannot determine if people are interested so I cant ask people out on dates.

Can you see why its much simpler to go the friend zone route and why there is considerable less downside attached to that?

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, FredEire said:

This is important, it's your reality, not an objective truth.

And it sucks, you are lonely and miserable. If you don't want to change, why are you here again?

Its the objective truth and been proven over and over again across almost any dating app you care to mention, its also been proven when I go out where I get zero attention whatsoever so I either adopt a cry baby mentality of I adopt as granite not give a continental mentality, I went with the second.

Where has it been proven that this is not the objective truth.

Change to what exactly? 

[FredEire]

You preach a perfect, balanced philosophy and then when you talk about your actual experiences and desires it paints a completely different picture.

It's infuriating.

I have to conclude that you are just blind to these things and don't want to change even one little bit, you expect the world to change for you.

Edited April 10 by FredEire

[Weezy1973]

22 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You right being attractive to someone I do not take as a compliment. Haha yes I suppose we can pretend negative it positive,

Can you explain how someone being attracted to you is negative? I’m genuinely curious about your thought process here. 
 

24 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Learned what exactly? Grow how exactly?

Do you read what people write in these threads at all? Learn that the worldview and beliefs you hold are failing to bring you any success. Grow by challenging your own beliefs. Grow by asking women out despite your intense fear of rejection. Grow by expanding your social group beyond the superficial friends you’ve latched onto. Heck grow by just realizing that if you don’t change anything, nothing is going to change. Move somewhere else. You know, growth. 
 

28 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I refuse to settle…

There’s no such thing. It’s just a term used by perma-singles to justify their inability to find love. 
 

31 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok so now rejection is not negative. 

Again, it’s subjective interpretation. Here’s some examples of how to take rejection positively. Ask woman out on date. Woman says no. Well I don’t have to waste my time thinking about her anymore which frees up time to ask out another woman that might be a a match. Or, like salespeople do, every no is just one step closer to a yes. Multiple ways to take a rejection as a positive. Also personal growth - sure I was rejected, but I didn’t die. Or go to the hospital. Or really experience any major set back at all. I’m in the exact place I was before I asked her out. Rejection isn’t really as scary as I made it out to be. You know, growth. 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Where did I say look down at people?

You haven't directly said it.  Instead, the way you describe how you feel about other people just reeks of it....we can all perceive it.

Again, it's it's they way you talk about your mates who are charmers and players and just want sex, the beautiful women who only want men with fancy cars.  You don't like dull people, you don't like apathetic people and you don't like funny guys.  And then there are all of those women who so are dull and boring and unattractive that they "don't count".   Not even acknowledging a whole group of people as even counting, is the ultimate in looking down on them.

 

[Gaeta]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

You right I have no love for dating when there is zero mutual attraction.

Your contempt to women is so repulsive. You don’t appreciate women, don’t respect them, don’t love them

He meant you have no love for women, not no love for dating. 

I agree with him. 

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

Can you explain how someone being attracted to you is negative? I’m genuinely curious about your thought process here. 
 

Do you read what people write in these threads at all? Learn that the worldview and beliefs you hold are failing to bring you any success. Grow by challenging your own beliefs. Grow by asking women out despite your intense fear of rejection. Grow by expanding your social group beyond the superficial friends you’ve latched onto. Heck grow by just realizing that if you don’t change anything, nothing is going to change. Move somewhere else. You know, growth. 
 

There’s no such thing. It’s just a term used by perma-singles to justify their inability to find love. 
 

Again, it’s subjective interpretation. Here’s some examples of how to take rejection positively. Ask woman out on date. Woman says no. Well I don’t have to waste my time thinking about her anymore which frees up time to ask out another woman that might be a a match. Or, like salespeople do, every no is just one step closer to a yes. Multiple ways to take a rejection as a positive. Also personal growth - sure I was rejected, but I didn’t die. Or go to the hospital. Or really experience any major set back at all. I’m in the exact place I was before I asked her out. Rejection isn’t really as scary as I made it out to be. You know, growth. 

For me its hugely negative because if I do not find her attractive, it implies they ultimately I will need to reject her which is not a pleasant experience, one I'd rather avoid having to do. My views and beliefs wont change because as I have said before beliefs are a function of experiences and until those negative experiences are superseded those beliefs will remain. See not reason to move somewhere else. I think my point is I  know nobody who has changed their entire thinking to date, or on the premise that '"maybe If I do that I might get this". I have been down that road before with makeover and wearing clothes I really did not like in the hope they would make me more attractive.

Settling absolutely does exist, of that there is no doubt, your own "leagues" story confirms that. 

Rejection  can never ever be seen as a positive thing its just another form of failure and an acute one at that. 

I'll take your word "grow" and substitute it with "improve" and the fact of the matter is I am no better now than I was ten years ago, the other factual matter is I still cannot find mutual attraction so the level of motivation is not particularly great. Again I get more good out of the friend zone if I accept the inherent limitations of that.

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

For me its hugely negative because if I do not find her attractive, it implies they ultimately I will need to reject her which is not a pleasant experience, one I'd rather avoid having to do. My views and beliefs wont change because as I have said before beliefs are a function of experiences and until those negative experiences are superseded those beliefs will remain. See not reason to move somewhere else. I think my point is I  know nobody who has changed their entire thinking to date, or on the premise that '"maybe If I do that I might get this". I have been down that road before with makeover and wearing clothes I really did not like in the hope they would make me more attractive.

Settling absolutely does exist, of that there is no doubt, your own "leagues" story confirms that. 

Rejection  can never ever be seen as a positive thing its just another form of failure and an acute one at that. 

I'll take your word "grow" and substitute it with "improve" and the fact of the matter is I am no better now than I was ten years ago, the other factual matter is I still cannot find mutual attraction so the level of motivation is not particularly great. Again I get more good out of the friend zone if I accept the inherent limitations of that.

If a boxer gets knocked out in sparring does he sit down and cry about how bad he feels because he failed or does he take not of what he did wrong and use it as a positive learning experience?

Your attitude stinks. Rejection is a positive learning experience, it teaches you what you need to do better next time. You don't have to take it so personally.

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

Your contempt to women is so repulsive. You don’t appreciate women, don’t respect them, don’t love them

He meant you have no love for women, not no love for dating. 

I agree with him. 

 

Perhaps extreme and not true especially when I have two close confidants who are women one of whom is an older sister like figure to me. 

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, FredEire said:

If a boxer gets knocked out in sparring does he sit down and cry about how bad he feels because he failed or does he take not of what he did wrong and use it as a positive learning experience?

Your attitude stinks. Rejection is a positive learning experience, it teaches you what you need to do better next time. You don't have to take it so personally.

Its teaches nothing, absolutely nothing because do you honestly believe people ever given reasons why they reject others? Of course not, lets be practical its far easier to ghost and ignore than actually provide any sort of constructive feedback though I have been rejected twice for being inexperienced so perhaps some people do provide feedback,

OK seeing as you are so confident please tell me how being ghosted teaches me anything?

[FredEire]

15 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Its teaches nothing, absolutely nothing because do you honestly believe people ever given reasons why they reject others? Of course not, lets be practical its far easier to ghost and ignore than actually provide any sort of constructive feedback though I have been rejected twice for being inexperienced so perhaps some people do provide feedback,

OK seeing as you are so confident please tell me how being ghosted teaches me anything?

They may not give a reason, sometimes they will. If you have a bit of social intuition you can usually take a good guess why, be it recently jilted, fear of committment, low attraction, etc etc.

It may also sometimes be something you did or said on the date, if this is the case you can learn that this may not be a good approach and avoid it next time. If the issue was more something on their end you can learn to see the red flags and avoid it or cut things off early when it's necessary.

I suspect you aren't able to see these signs so ascribe every rejection to not being good enough for the sexual marketplace and or not having some intangible attributes in general, as this is an easy solution, rather than looking at the specific case.