Perspective

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, basil67 said:

How exactly do these guys 'shove their perfect lives in everyone's face'?  Is it because they dare to be seen in public looking happy?  I have no idea what you're seeing

And unless we're an absolute arsehole, we all have to feign interest when we're stuck talking to a bore or a whiner.   But if the person who's stuck is at at a social event, would you rather them openly ignore or be rude to the person who's not good company?   So yes, courtesy dictates that one feigns interest until they can escape.  This is one of the uses of wine "OK look, my glass is empty...I'll go fill it up".   

if you detest feigned interest, how do you get rid of someone who's not good company when you're a guest at a party?   How do you manage to survive a bad 30 minute coffee date without feigning interest?   Heaven forbid, what do you do if you're seated next to someone who wants to talk about football or fashion?   Do you feign interest or tell them that they are horribly dull and to not speak to you.

You seem to detest a lot of things about other people.  This is likely why you can't make friends.

I just find them completely false most of the time time and often boastful to boot. On top of that everything about them is somehow more significant than anyone else. 

My issue with feigned interest is more in dating context, don't tell me I am good company then never avail yourself to meet you again, rather actually say nothing at all than to simply be false. In my view 90% of first dating interaction is fundamentally false, it's all posturing to try and make things seen more attractive than they possibly are in reality.

The wonderful thing about being me is fortunately I generally speaking am never in social settings where I need to feign interest, the extremely limited social life I have revolves around people where there is common interests to lesser or greater degrees.

Generally it's important to be able to read a person and their level of engagement in a conversation, pull back a bit if it appears they are not engaging. It's something I'm learnt with public speaking, need to read the audience and make the words count. 

The fundamental problem I have on dates is 95% of the time I have to feign interest because there is just limited things to interest me, good example was an attractive au pair I went out with, the only thing she could talk about were her dog and the kids she looked after. Yes she was attractive and I left thinking she'd be a very good mother one day but there just wasn't enough engagement. 

The reverse is someone where the conversation just runs in any direction time passes in a blur, no feigned interest required because it's been an engaging conversation. 

As for making friends, I've never been good at it, guess it doesn't help when there is mostly never common ground and helps even less that being perpetually single around couples when there is no common ground is very awkward. 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I just find them completely false most of the time time and often boastful to boot. On top of that everything about them is somehow more significant than anyone else. 

I suspect you're actually talking about the fancy, rich and conceited guys who you choose to hang out with at your events.  Because I'm pretty sure you choose to not socialise with regular men

Quote

The fundamental problem I have on dates is 95% of the time I have to feign interest

Why do you feign interest when you detest those who do?  

[ZA Dater]

10 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I suspect you're actually talking about the fancy, rich and conceited guys who you choose to hang out with at your events.  Because I'm pretty sure you choose to not socialise with regular men

Why do you feign interest when you detest those who do?  

Actually not those people at all. I have to feign interest from time to time but I prefer to not get myself into situations where I need to feign interest.

Growing up I was around quite a few of these "nice" people who I found completely false. None struggled to date.

[basil67]

41 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Actually not those people at all. I have to feign interest from time to time but I prefer to not get myself into situations where I need to feign interest.

Growing up I was around quite a few of these "nice" people who I found completely false. None struggled to date.

But you still have to feign interest, so why do you hate those who also have to do it?  

I'm going to unpack the word "nice guy" for this situation.  For a woman (and the average guy) "nice guy" is synonymous with "good guy".  Yeah sure, they may use a bit of bravado when they are at an event and don't know many people, but they aren't inherently fake.    But the guys who are completely false aren't "nice guys"

Meanwhile, the men who use "nice guy" as an insult have generally spent far too much time down the incel rabbit hole and have a completely cynical and twisted view of men who successfully get into relationships.   I promise you, pretty much any women who hears a man insulting "nice guys" will recognise him as an incel straight away.  And I'm seeing it right here and it's not a trait which will attract women.

Edited May 1, 2024 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

29 minutes ago, basil67 said:

But you still have to feign interest, so why do you hate those who also have to do it?  

I'm going to unpack the word "nice guy" for this situation.  For a woman (and the average guy) "nice guy" is synonymous with "good guy".  Yeah sure, they may use a bit of bravado when they are at an event and don't know many people, but they aren't inherently fake.    But the guys who are completely false aren't "nice guys"

Meanwhile, the men who use "nice guy" as an insult have generally spent far too much time down the incel rabbit hole and have a completely cynical and twisted view of men who successfully get into relationships.   I promise you, pretty much any women who hears a man insulting "nice guys" will recognise him as an incel straight away.  And I'm seeing it right here and it's not a trait which will attract women.

Being physically unattractive doesn't attract anyone either. I simply think people who are overly nice always seem to come across as fake and insincere.

Bravado I find false in the extreme, reminds me of a dinner I was at, some guy at the table tries to impress everyone by pontificating, problem was most of what he was saying was factually incorrect. It was obvious there was one person he was trying to impress. In this instance I did politely point out he was talking nonsense. Still she left with him so I guess there is something to be said for bravado. 

I'll also be honest to say I wish I had some of those skills some of the time because being unable to flirt, unable to do bravado means I have lost before I start. Clearly people like both of those and being unattractive aside clearly having neither does not help. 

[basil67]

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Being physically unattractive doesn't attract anyone either. I simply think people who are overly nice always seem to come across as fake and insincere.

Bravado I find false in the extreme, reminds me of a dinner I was at, some guy at the table tries to impress everyone by pontificating, problem was most of what he was saying was factually incorrect. It was obvious there was one person he was trying to impress. In this instance I did politely point out he was talking nonsense. Still she left with him so I guess there is something to be said for bravado. 

I'll also be honest to say I wish I had some of those skills some of the time because being unable to flirt, unable to do bravado means I have lost before I start. Clearly people like both of those and being unattractive aside clearly having neither does not help. 

Plenty of physically unattractive people get partners, so you're talking bollocks. Walk in your neighbourhood and you'll see plenty of perfectly average...or even unattractive people in couples.   I can't say I've ever met anyone "overly nice".   I just see nice people and I talk to them in good faith.

Bravado doesn't have to mean pontificating...why do you see the worst in so many people?  Bravado can simply mean putting on a brave face and socialising when inside you're really nervous or shy.   The latter isn't about fake....it's about being brave and putting yourself out there even if it means getting outside your comfort zone.  I bet you've done it yourself when with a pretty woman. 

Before you learn the skills of dating, you would first do well to stop being so unkind about others.  Even if you were handsome, your attitude towards others would let you down

 

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Plenty of physically unattractive people get partners, so you're talking bollocks. Walk in your neighbourhood and you'll see plenty of perfectly average...or even unattractive people in couples.   I can't say I've ever met anyone "overly nice".   I just see nice people and I talk to them in good faith.

Bravado doesn't have to mean pontificating...why do you see the worst in so many people?  Bravado can simply mean putting on a brave face and socialising when inside you're really nervous or shy.   The latter isn't about fake....it's about being brave and putting yourself out there even if it means getting outside your comfort zone.  I bet you've done it yourself when with a pretty woman. 

Before you learn the skills of dating, you would first do well to stop being so unkind about others.  Even if you were handsome, your attitude towards others would let you down

 

Bravado is fundamentally fake, it's being someone you are not and no it's not something I do often. 

At the end of the day people will partner up and others will not. How many people settle is another question.

Only dating related thing I wish I had was more attraction so at least I could date people I found attractive. Even if it's just endless coffee date's and nothing physical.

[basil67]

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Bravado is fundamentally fake, it's being someone you are not and no it's not something I do often. 

The more one puts on a brave face and pushes themself to be social, the more the skill starts to stick.  Then the resulting success leads to confidence and they end up being the person they want to be.   It's not about fakery, it's about self improvement through practicing

If you won't even pretend to be brave and social, just give up now

[FredEire]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Oh no I have met those type of guys and taken an instant dislike to many, their apparent perfect lives being shoved in everyone's face, then there is what is very obviously feigned interest in people around them. There is the seemingly perfect GF, perfect career etc and no thanks I avoid people like this because nobody has a perfect life.

There are few things I detest more than feigned interest.

 

Wow, you're so bitter and resentful. I find it interesting who I made a post about genuinely nice people and you twisted it into a comment about fake posers to convince yourself these people don't exist.

[ZA Dater]

10 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Wow, you're so bitter and resentful. I find it interesting who I made a post about genuinely nice people and you twisted it into a comment about fake posers to convince yourself these people don't exist.

I am sure they do exist, I simply have met very few genuinely nice people but then again inherently my view " if it seems to good to be true" is all encompassing.

The world I live is exactly as you say, fundamentally transactional, there is no kindness given, the most superficially attractive guys always have endless options, the rest, well it seems either accept whoever will date you or date nobody because there is no way that attractive lady is going to pick a nice guy over a superficially attractive one.

[ZA Dater]

17 minutes ago, basil67 said:

The more one puts on a brave face and pushes themself to be social, the more the skill starts to stick.  Then the resulting success leads to confidence and they end up being the person they want to be.   It's not about fakery, it's about self improvement through practicing

If you won't even pretend to be brave and social, just give up now

I disagree. It's fundamentally fake, I am not a very social person so I must pretend to be for the sake of ABC maybe finding me attractive? 

No thanks been there done that.

[FredEire]

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am sure they do exist, I simply have met very few genuinely nice people but then again inherently my view " if it seems to good to be true" is all encompassing.

The world I live is exactly as you say, fundamentally transactional, there is no kindness given, the most superficially attractive guys always have endless options, the rest, well it seems either accept whoever will date you or date nobody because there is no way that attractive lady is going to pick a nice guy over a superficially attractive one.

There is, I've seen it many times.

It's the circles you move in, the business world is inherently superficial and soulless.

Your first step should be to get out of these circles in your social life. Do art or writing classes or something, meet more creative people with a soul and your perspective may change.

[semble]

19 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I disagree. It's fundamentally fake, I am not a very social person so I must pretend to be for the sake of ABC maybe finding me attractive? 

No thanks been there done that.

Yes you "fake it til you make it" and you absolutely must do this to build attraction before you allow yourself to be more open and express your flaws.

Think about it. Would you show up on a date all dirty and greasy and fart during the meal? Would you announce you declared bankruptcy 5 years ago, or that you haven't ever had sex or even a real relationship? Would you disclose a gambling or drug addiction? Well YOU might. But most will not. We put our best foot forward, to make the best impression possible, to build attraction. Sure it's dishonest but it's how the game is played. Like anything else, it's a matter of degree. The worst offenders are the ones who post 10 year old profile pictures. In time the truth will come out.. but by then hopefully the positive aspects outweigh the negative.

We all do this to some extent because we've all got skeletons, and the alternative is to be completely honest, and be completely alone, bitter and resentful.

 

 

 

[basil67]

21 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I disagree. It's fundamentally fake, I am not a very social person so I must pretend to be for the sake of ABC maybe finding me attractive? 

No thanks been there done that.

It's fake to you because you're just playing pretend but have no desire to change or improve.  For others, it's about practicing social skills and confidence.  

[basil67]

25 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The world I live is exactly as you say, fundamentally transactional, there is no kindness given, the most superficially attractive guys always have endless options, the rest, well it seems either accept whoever will date you or date nobody because there is no way that attractive lady is going to pick a nice guy over a superficially attractive one.

And this is the world you choose to be in.  And the girls you want to date judge men by their looks and wallet.    So don't be complaining about them being mean, shallow, fake and unkind when you keep returning for more.

You could socialise with normal guys leading normal lives who have friend groups containing normal girls, but you don't like them either.

[FredEire]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Is it momentary though? I have met people I get along with well, in fact every person I have found attractive because I could communicate well with them and yet nothing actually happens barring being rejected.

"A lot to offer" again that's transactional, I am glad we can agree part of dating is transactional. I do not believe it's possible to ever overcome a lack of physical attraction using other qualities, well for me at least. Lack of physical attraction immediately makes it friend zone. Again proven by the fact I get nowhere with the people I find attractive and communicate well with. Good example of this " was good to see you, you were really good company", went nowhere.

Did those friends date, did they hook up or did they spend every weekend alone with no dating options?

Nobody who is unsuccessful at something will be confident about it, that's just life. 

It's transactional if you a lizard person who monetises everything down to attraction, sex and company. You can look at it in a different way that you goal in life is to simply be and some people bring more joy to your state of being, there's no demands and no "sale" so to speak, something about their nature just attracts you to them. I prefer to use the word "exchange" rather than "transaction" because money is based on exploitation, greed and selfishness, energy exchanges can be used for mutual benefit.

Yeah those friends hooked up when they were younger, they dated. They did well despite not acting like Andrew Tate.

No but when you get defeated at something there's two routes, roll over and die or figure out where you are going wrong and proactively address it so you have a better chance at success the next time. It seems you have chosen the first option.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

It's transactional if you a lizard person who monetises everything down to attraction, sex and company. You can look at it in a different way that you goal in life is to simply be and some people bring more joy to your state of being, there's no demands and no "sale" so to speak, something about their nature just attracts you to them. I prefer to use the word "exchange" rather than "transaction" because money is based on exploitation, greed and selfishness, energy exchanges can be used for mutual benefit.

Yeah those friends hooked up when they were younger, they dated. They did well despite not acting like Andrew Tate.

No but when you get defeated at something there's two routes, roll over and die or figure out where you are going wrong and proactively address it so you have a better chance at success the next time. It seems you have chosen the first option.

Ah so they did well. Agree every person I have found attractive is because of more than one thing, I have friends who only look at physical, whereas I look at more than that,which is problematic in some respects.

I like good company but good company cannot and this is where I fail, make up for a lack of attraction. That's my whole point.

I've chosen to care a little less, be a little colder, be a lot more cynical and see it for what it really is. It's impossible to compete with people who are superficially attractive, just can't be done, I used to think it's possible but time has shown me it just isn't. Someone tall, well spoken, good job, intelligent, outgoing, they will have a the pick of people and here I arrive with qualities like caring, maybe intelligent, but there are endless negatives so I can't compete so it's a waste of time.

For years I have been trying to beat the odds with this. Alternative is to just settle for whoever will date me and that won't work.

 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, semble said:

Yes you "fake it til you make it" and you absolutely must do this to build attraction before you allow yourself to be more open and express your flaws.

Think about it. Would you show up on a date all dirty and greasy and fart during the meal? Would you announce you declared bankruptcy 5 years ago, or that you haven't ever had sex or even a real relationship? Would you disclose a gambling or drug addiction? Well YOU might. But most will not. We put our best foot forward, to make the best impression possible, to build attraction. Sure it's dishonest but it's how the game is played. Like anything else, it's a matter of degree. The worst offenders are the ones who post 10 year old profile pictures. In time the truth will come out.. but by then hopefully the positive aspects outweigh the negative.

We all do this to some extent because we've all got skeletons, and the alternative is to be completely honest, and be completely alone, bitter and resentful.

I think being presentable is a basic requirement and is in no way fake. Yes put your best foot forward but don't be someone you are not. I've told date's have not had a real relationship, they run for the hills which once again proves my point, people cannot deal with or respect honesty.

The fact being honest leads to being rejected is quite interesting. 

For what its worth I do try put my best foot forward but I certainly do not spin nonsense in order to try impress.

Attraction, for me it's there or it isn't, I've gone on dates with people in essence to see if perhaps in person there is attraction, almost never the case.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

 I've told date's have not had a real relationship, they run for the hills which once again proves my point, people cannot deal with or respect honesty.

The fact being honest leads to being rejected is quite interesting. 

You aren’t being rejected because you’re honest, you’re being rejected because never having had a relationship is frequently a red flag.  

[Weezy1973]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

How many people settle is another question.

Nobody settles. It doesn’t exist. It’s only a major concern for yourself and other always-singles. But it’s not actually a thing people do. 

[Weezy1973]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Still she left with him so I guess there is something to be said for bravado. 

There is something to be said about clearly and intentionally showing your interest in someone. We’ve suggested that to you many, many times and you refuse to do it because of your over dramatic fear of rejection. 
 

You keep saying women you’re attracted to refuse to date you, but when you see a woman you like you refuse to show interest and ask her out on a date. So really it’s all stories in your head. Attractive women don’t reject you, because you don’t even give them the chance to! If an attractive woman actually rejected you, believe it or not, that would show progress. 

[ZA Dater]

11 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

There is something to be said about clearly and intentionally showing your interest in someone. We’ve suggested that to you many, many times and you refuse to do it because of your over dramatic fear of rejection. 
 

You keep saying women you’re attracted to refuse to date you, but when you see a woman you like you refuse to show interest and ask her out on a date. So really it’s all stories in your head. Attractive women don’t reject you, because you don’t even give them the chance to! If an attractive woman actually rejected you, believe it or not, that would show progress. 

Well I'd say when someone takes weeks to respond that's pretty much lack of interest and basically rejection. I tried to date the model who has a kid, got nowhere at all, of anything trying to do that destroyed the friendship.

If someone swipes left on me there is no way that outcome is going to be any different in person. Especially not of they have endless choice.

What's made dating even more impossible for many is suddenly those who have superficial attraction have easier access to ever more choice.

[ZA Dater]

30 minutes ago, basil67 said:

You aren’t being rejected because you’re honest, you’re being rejected because never having had a relationship is frequently a red flag.  

This is true. Glad someone can actually acknowledge lack of experience is a fundamental problem.

[NuevoYorko]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

This is true. Glad someone can actually acknowledge lack of experience is a fundamental problem.

Of course it is.  You have no experience because you have made choices at every turn not to have experience.    It's not a passive condition.   

[BaileyB]

 

This is true. Glad someone can actually acknowledge lack of experience is a fundamental problem.

Lack of experience won’t be a problem for the right woman - but you need to show up to make it happen. You need to pursue someone who is available and genuinely interested in dating you. You need to express your interest in a genuine and obvious manner. And, you will need to present yourself as someone of value - such that the other individual will be willing to overlook your lack of experience because they have a greater interest in getting to know you - they appreciate the person that you are (ie. your intelligence, your sense of humour, your kindness, etc…) and they enjoy how they feel when they spend time with you.

That’s how dating works… It’s not simply - I’m going to scroll the internet in search of a model who can hold an interesting conversation and then wait for her to come to me - because she can somehow sense that I’m a good guy who is kind and loyal and would be a good partner for her. Women will pass you over every day if this is your approach to dating.

The fact that you have no experience in a relationship is simply the most overt indication that something is off. It is definitely a red flag - and rightly so. It could indicate any number of things - either your expectations are unreasonable, or you lack the confidence to take a risk/date, or you don’t know how to relate to another person in a social/romantic sense, or any combination of reasons. Depending on the reason, it may/may not affect your prospects… But, for the right woman, it doesn’t necessarily have to be a dealbreaker.

Edited May 1, 2024 by BaileyB