Perspective

[SurfCity]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Wish I'd been told I was ugly as kid, it'd have saved me a lot of time and money trying to "punch above my weight"

Are you calling yourself ugly? You're not ugly. I remember when you had your picture as your profile pic. You were squatting next to a sports car, IIRC. You're normal looking, not movie star gorgeous, but definitely good looking enough. Your looks are absolutely not the reason that you struggle with dating. 

Edited May 10 by SurfCity

[basil67]

>>Wish I'd been told I was ugly as kid, it'd have saved me a lot of time and money trying to "punch above my weight"<<

This is quite some pity party you're having here!   And there is no logic at all in your thinking

First up, plenty of unattractive people find mutual love.  And nobody around you could have predicted that you'd spend your dating life punching above. They probably thought you'd date like the rest of us do.

Besides, we've been telling you that punching above doesn't work for years.  If mature ZADater won't accept the advice and life experience of others, why would little ZADater have accepted it?

Edited May 10 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, basil67 said:

I don't remember anybody telling you that you should date at your level.  We've simply said that you'll have no success dating above.

And then you will reply "ah, it's back to the leagues again".  And we'll say "Of course it's about leagues"

And then you'll say "but I don't want to date at my level"   

Rinse and repeat.

For 7000 pages

I totally disagree with all of your posts in this regard, on one hand I must not date at my level but I cant date above either so where does that leave me? 

Its exactly this narrative which actually makes it very easy to walk away from the entire concept. If the best I can do is date someone I need to try convince myself I find attractive because the person I really do like is apparently a league above me then that seems like a particularly pointless way to live and if anything all your point seems to elude to is many people do exactly as I describe and settle because they cant date the people they actually want to date.

I'd rather have nothing but aspire to more than settle for what I do not want. Its really that simple.

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, basil67 said:

>>Wish I'd been told I was ugly as kid, it'd have saved me a lot of time and money trying to "punch above my weight"<<

This is quite some pity party you're having here!   And there is no logic at all in your thinking

First up, plenty of unattractive people find mutual love.  And nobody around you could have predicted that you'd spend your dating life punching above. They probably thought you'd date like the rest of us do.

Besides, we've been telling you that punching above doesn't work for years.  If mature ZADater won't accept the advice and life experience of others, why would little ZADater have accepted it?

Do they find it or do the simply just settle because the people they do find attractive are not interested in them? 

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, SurfCity said:

Are you calling yourself ugly? You're not ugly. I remember when you had your picture as your profile pic. You were squatting next to a sports car, IIRC. You're normal looking, not movie star gorgeous, but definitely good looking enough. Your looks are absolutely not the reason that you struggle with dating. 

Thanks but they absolutely are because 10 years on OLD and I get NO attractive matches tells its own story. If I were attractive I'd at least get a few matches but based on the logic here all the unattractive people who took a shine to me were "trying to punch above their weight" because apparently one needs to work out, no idea how, the level one is born into and perhaps we should all live in grey painted one bedroom apartments too and never aspire to anything more because "that is our level".

 

[FredEire]

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Thanks but they absolutely are because 10 years on OLD and I get NO attractive matches tells its own story. If I were attractive I'd at least get a few matches but based on the logic here all the unattractive people who took a shine to me were "trying to punch above their weight" because apparently one needs to work out, no idea how, the level one is born into and perhaps we should all live in grey painted one bedroom apartments too and never aspire to anything more because "that is our level".

 

People naturally punch above their level on OLD. Women are super in demand so the a lot of women will be very selective only swiping model good-looking men, for the most part.

You seem to think these things only happen to you. I've heard countless men say they don't have much look on OLD, for this reason. The odd time you may match someone more attractive but for the most part you won't, that's just how it is.

The better your profile the more matches you'll get however. When I was younger my profile was rubbish and although I got a lot of compliments for my looks in real life I got almost no matches on OLD, it's not very indicative of how things are in the real world as it completely leaves things out like personality and charisma. It should always be taken with a very large pinch of salt.

Especially as you get older it's probably not the best/healthiest way to meet people. Choosing to pin your agenda that you are a horrible ugly undesirable man to the mast of not having success on OLD is frankly nonsense when you've barely tried in real life.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I totally disagree with all of your posts in this regard, on one hand I must not date at my level but I cant date above either so where does that leave me? 

Nobody has said you must date at your level!  Why must you insist on misquoting everyone?

We said that you don't have to date at your level if you don't want to.  And you can try and date above your level, but don't expect them to date down to you.   You're a case in point for not dating down, so don't expect it of others

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Do they find it or do the simply just settle because the people they do find attractive are not interested in them? 

You clearly have no idea what it is to value a person for more than skin deep.  

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Thanks but they absolutely are because 10 years on OLD and I get NO attractive matches tells its own story. If I were attractive I'd at least get a few matches but based on the logic here all the unattractive people who took a shine to me were "trying to punch above their weight" because apparently one needs to work out, no idea how, the level one is born into and perhaps we should all live in grey painted one bedroom apartments too and never aspire to anything more because "that is our level".

I imagine those people considered you as an equal.   Overweight = ugly face.  Single mother who can't go out socialising at night = non drinker.  Limited book smarts = limited social skills.  Awkward = awkward.

Single people don't have to commit to living alone if they are prepared to be flexible on who they date.  And what's wrong with a single person living in a smart one bedroom apartment anyway?  And for the record, the colour is not "grey" it is "greige"

Edited May 10 by basil67

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I totally disagree with all of your posts in this regard, on one hand I must not date at my level but I cant date above either so where does that leave me? Its exactly this narrative which actually makes it very easy to walk away from the entire concept.

Not sure what you disagree with Basil on. You seem to have done the math yourself. You don’t want to date women on your level or below, you can’t date women above your level, so you walk away from dating altogether. 
 

 

[BaileyB]

Oh, to spend a lifetime on OLD waiting for that magical unicorn - a woman with both beauty and intelligence who can somehow see the good and wonderful person that you are despite your average appearance, awkward social skills, rigid and over-analytical nature, negative attitude, the fact that you are a non-drinker, and your lack of experience….

Edited May 10 by BaileyB

[FredEire]

5 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Not sure what you disagree with Basil on. You seem to have done the math yourself. You don’t want to date women on your level or below, you can’t date women above your level, so you walk away from dating altogether. 
 

 

Yes and the only way to solve this conundrum is to up your game through personal development.

It's much easier to sit and complain on the internet than to become a better man though. I suspect it's because the second option requires a lot of work and an acknowledgement that you're far away from what you want to be at the moment, while the first requires no work at all other than typing.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, FredEire said:

People naturally punch above their level on OLD. Women are super in demand so the a lot of women will be very selective only swiping model good-looking men, for the most part.

You seem to think these things only happen to you. I've heard countless men say they don't have much look on OLD, for this reason. The odd time you may match someone more attractive but for the most part you won't, that's just how it is.

The better your profile the more matches you'll get however. When I was younger my profile was rubbish and although I got a lot of compliments for my looks in real life I got almost no matches on OLD, it's not very indicative of how things are in the real world as it completely leaves things out like personality and charisma. It should always be taken with a very large pinch of salt.

Especially as you get older it's probably not the best/healthiest way to meet people. Choosing to pin your agenda that you are a horrible ugly undesirable man to the mast of not having success on OLD is frankly nonsense when you've barely tried in real life.

Thank you because you basically prove my point perfectly in the first line.  I think in retrospect OLD is a complete and total waste of time unless you have plenty of superficially attractive qualities and then have a degree of choice available. I have never been complimented on looks in person but then I do not expect to get such compliments, again much the same reason I could not care if people like me, I'd rather be respected than liked and I have plenty of that, in part because I tell things how they are and avoid sugar coating everything.

As for in real life considering I never meet anyone single its irrelevant what I think of myself, I am ok with owning being the unattractive person I am. 

For the most part of this latest debacle I can walk away with a fairly clear mind, here I found someone I really enjoyed spending time with, got along well with and even shared some interests and values. Yet once again it does not work and I get passed over. 

 

[ZA Dater]

15 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Oh, to spend a lifetime on OLD waiting for that magical unicorn - a woman with both beauty and intelligence who can somehow see the good and wonderful person that you are despite your average appearance, awkward social skills, rigid and over-analytical nature, negative attitude, the fact that you are a non-drinker, and your lack of experience….

Makes it very easy to walk away. Maybe now you realize why I am ok with friend zone because its about the best I can get with what I have to work with it, something really good 1% of the time is better than something I do not want 99% of the time.

[FredEire]

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Thank you because you basically prove my point perfectly in the first line.  I think in retrospect OLD is a complete and total waste of time unless you have plenty of superficially attractive qualities and then have a degree of choice available. I have never been complimented on looks in person but then I do not expect to get such compliments, again much the same reason I could not care if people like me, I'd rather be respected than liked and I have plenty of that, in part because I tell things how they are and avoid sugar coating everything.

As for in real life considering I never meet anyone single its irrelevant what I think of myself, I am ok with owning being the unattractive person I am. 

For the most part of this latest debacle I can walk away with a fairly clear mind, here I found someone I really enjoyed spending time with, got along well with and even shared some interests and values. Yet once again it does not work and I get passed over. 

 

I think OLD like any other social media is probably not adding to society or anyone's mental health, it's just a big part of dating these days.

But it's not the only way to date. Saying everyone is in a relationship won't cut it, they aren't. You need to broaden your horizons. It's a wide world, there's 6 billion people out there.

[ZA Dater]

16 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Yes and the only way to solve this conundrum is to up your game through personal development.

It's much easier to sit and complain on the internet than to become a better man though. I suspect it's because the second option requires a lot of work and an acknowledgement that you're far away from what you want to be at the moment, while the first requires no work at all other than typing.

None of which changes how I fundamentally look. You know this "better man" is such rubbish because as we all know a nice guy gets nowhere in the dating world, I have been working on this improvement story for years and it delivers no tangible benefits whatsoever, its far better for me to just out there and be me rather than some contrived nonsense version of myself for the sake of appearance. 

My expectations with dating have never been very high, UNLESS I managed to find someone where I could sort of connect with them on a conversational level then I had a sense that maybe I could be sort of likeable by virtue of someone actually enjoying my company but we all know how well this actually goes. A friend of mine once asked me why I did ask the latest interest on a date "'because there is zero chance of her going on a date with me". That opinion is formed because every other time I have tried with people its always been incredibly awkward and its never been a yes.

Fortunately for me I have a hobby which I really enjoy and a novel I want to finish writing this year. I'd rather do either than have to date someone who wont fit into the hobby and for which I would need bend over backward from a compromise point of view. If I can take someone I really like as a friend to hobby events and enjoy that interaction I have some of what I want.

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, FredEire said:

I think OLD like any other social media is probably not adding to society or anyone's mental health, it's just a big part of dating these days.

But it's not the only way to date. Saying everyone is in a relationship won't cut it, they aren't. You need to broaden your horizons. It's a wide world, there's 6 billion people out there.

OLD was the broadening horizons and I am not going back there. My lack of dating confidence will always make dating nearly impossible so I might as well just live life in areas where I do feel confident; work, hobbies, my book project and give relationships a complete miss for good. Even if I could find mutual attraction there would be some other problem or other and it would back to square one. Being rejected for the sake of it does not rank highly on my list of things to do, nor will it do much for already low confidence levels.

No, I am hoping to maybe get the latest interest to go to an event with me in June.  It will be great to spend time with her and enjoy it immensely. For me now its about those sort of things, I'll never get the full relationship but I can probably live fleeting moments, which are FAR preferable to dating for the sake of it.

[FredEire]

22 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

None of which changes how I fundamentally look. You know this "better man" is such rubbish because as we all know a nice guy gets nowhere in the dating world, I have been working on this improvement story for years and it delivers no tangible benefits whatsoever, its far better for me to just out there and be me rather than some contrived nonsense version of myself for the sake of appearance. 

My expectations with dating have never been very high, UNLESS I managed to find someone where I could sort of connect with them on a conversational level then I had a sense that maybe I could be sort of likeable by virtue of someone actually enjoying my company but we all know how well this actually goes. A friend of mine once asked me why I did ask the latest interest on a date "'because there is zero chance of her going on a date with me". That opinion is formed because every other time I have tried with people its always been incredibly awkward and its never been a yes.

Fortunately for me I have a hobby which I really enjoy and a novel I want to finish writing this year. I'd rather do either than have to date someone who wont fit into the hobby and for which I would need bend over backward from a compromise point of view. If I can take someone I really like as a friend to hobby events and enjoy that interaction I have some of what I want.

Its a load of bollocks. I too used to watch the PUA videos and wish I was a smooth player with a silk shirt, I'd lament being a "nice guy" and curse the fact that I was doomed to be a nice beta who would never attract women.

Then somewhere along the way I realised it was rubbish, almost all of it. It only continues to be your reality when you live in your own head as you seem to and let it become the lens that shapes your reality.

So you can stay there, or take the red pill (the real one not the PUA one) and actually enter the real world. There might be some not so nice realities about your relationship with yourself there though that you're not comfortable seeing.

Edited May 10 by FredEire

[BaileyB]

45 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Makes it very easy to walk away. Maybe now you realize why I am ok with friend zone because its about the best I can get with what I have to work with it, something really good 1% of the time is better than something I do not want 99% of the time.

But you are not ok with friend zone because you continue to try to turn it into something it isn’t and then complain endlessly when it doesn’t work! 
 

[ZA Dater]

11 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Its a load of bollocks. I too used to watch the PUA videos and wish I was a smooth player with a silk shirt, I'd lament being a "nice guy" and curse the fact that I was doomed to be a nice beta who would never attract women.

Then somewhere along the way I realised it was rubbish, almost all of it. It only continues to be your reality when you live in your own head as you seem to and let it become the lens that shapes your reality.

So you can stay there, or take the red pill (the real one not the PUA one) and actually enter the real world. There might be some not so nice realities about your relationship with yourself there though that you're not comfortable seeing.

Oddly those guys seem to enjoy dating success so there must be something said for it and seeing as I have spent year trying to compete against that sort of person I have had a front row seat as to how affective it is. Do take note because it appears to work does not mean I agree with it but equally I have also learnt going out into the world and being the authentic person one is does not work either because again why would someone date that when they can have a super confident fun guy? 

Honestly I just need to tell parts of my life story and people for the hills so I know the allure of the 'perfect sort of guy" is a very strong one versus someone who has a story to tell. The reality is I am forty next week and have never fallen in love with anyone,  for the vast part of my life been alone, wont have the family I once wanted and am very unlikely to find mutual attraction ever. Its fair to say I know about uncomfortable realities. 

[basil67]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Honestly I just need to tell parts of my life story and people for the hills so I know the allure of the 'perfect sort of guy" is a very strong one versus someone who has a story to tell.

Anyone who’s got relationship experience will say this is rubbish.  
 

There is no such thing as a perfect sort of guy because everyone likes different things. And no woman will have a relationship with a guy  just because he has a story to tell.  I mean, whatcha gonna do when the story has been told and there’s nothing else to offer? 

[ZA Dater]

15 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Anyone who’s got relationship experience will say this is rubbish.  
 

There is no such thing as a perfect sort of guy because everyone likes different things. And no woman will have a relationship with a guy  just because he has a story to tell.  I mean, whatcha gonna do when the story has been told and there’s nothing else to offer? 

You right it is, I once was invited to a dinner and for the life of me I could not understand what this now (ex) friend of mine saw in this person and I often find myself wondering this. Another reason I have no further interest in dating at "a level",  aspire to what I absolutely find attractive and do not settle for anything less, that is the way I see it. If it does not work, then so be it.

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

Not sure what you disagree with Basil on. You seem to have done the math yourself. You don’t want to date women on your level or below, you can’t date women above your level, so you walk away from dating altogether. 
 

I fundamentally disagree with this "well this is my level and well I cant ever do better than that". What a terrible way to live life being restricted by a lack of ambition. I know you do not believe in aspirational dating but I absolutely do, people get education to better themselves so a person so I fail to see how this is any different. 

Perhaps the the big difference is I'd rather just have nothing that someone I do not want whereas many get so desperate they will just accept whoever will give them the time of day and yes I do concede people do fall in love, a concept I am unlikely to ever experience but again I'd argue there was always something about that person which attracted them to begin with.

 

[Foxhall]

the novel perhaps could be what might open doors for you,

Did you share this novel with any of the ladies that you got somewhat close to,

If you meet someone you sense even a remote connection with dont be shy about sharing your thoughts on this novel, ask them are they interested in reading it,

I dont believe I could write a novel- maybe a short story,

the lady the one Ive seen twice in the last ten years- I asked her to marry me last month- 

I thought that might at least give me closure- but a direct answer is not forthcoming.

I took it as a gain she has not rejected it out of hand- more along the lines of is she going to change her life again at this point,

but Im writing short stories and sharing them with her- she is my only audience- I dont know if Ill achieve the dream but all I can do is find a way to keep it possible,

we have to adapt find a way to give oneself a chance. things are unlikely to go to plan.

 

 

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Oddly those guys seem to enjoy dating success so there must be something said for it and seeing as I have spent year trying to compete against that sort of person I have had a front row seat as to how affective it is. Do take note because it appears to work does not mean I agree with it but equally I have also learnt going out into the world and being the authentic person one is does not work either because again why would someone date that when they can have a super confident fun guy? 

Honestly I just need to tell parts of my life story and people for the hills so I know the allure of the 'perfect sort of guy" is a very strong one versus someone who has a story to tell. The reality is I am forty next week and have never fallen in love with anyone,  for the vast part of my life been alone, wont have the family I once wanted and am very unlikely to find mutual attraction ever. Its fair to say I know about uncomfortable realities. 

What does it work for? Having sex with multiple women? Apparently you don't want that so I'm not sure why you consider it success. A PUA lifestyle doesn't work as well for having a healthy stable relationship, isn't that what you want? Or maybe what you really want is to be a playboy but you don't want to admit it?

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I fundamentally disagree with this "well this is my level and well I cant ever do better than that". What a terrible way to live life being restricted by a lack of ambition. I know you do not believe in aspirational dating but I absolutely do, people get education to better themselves so a person so I fail to see how this is any different. 

Perhaps the the big difference is I'd rather just have nothing that someone I do not want whereas many get so desperate they will just accept whoever will give them the time of day and yes I do concede people do fall in love, a concept I am unlikely to ever experience but again I'd argue there was always something about that person which attracted them to begin with.

 

I agree with this, but you've contradicted yourself here when in other posts you've said I guess I'm just ugly and have to accept I won't have any success.

The reality is having a pretty face doesn't mean much, that individual might be a pretty crappy person in every other respect, I don't believe in saying someone is "out of your league" as you are basically putting yourself beneath them rather than believing you are a good fit for anyone suitable who may come along.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

 I know you do not believe in aspirational dating but I absolutely do…

 

Did you read the study on “aspirational dating”? It’s basically explains why many people don’t succeed at online dating. Most people are aspiring to date someone out of their league, and because the options seem endless, they just keep searching. It explains pretty much every frustration both women and men have with online dating. 
 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

…but I absolutely do, people get education to better themselves so a person so I fail to see how this is any different. 

Sure, but that would require you working on yourself to rise to the level of the women you want to date. Which you refuse to do. You can’t lament being “ugly”, socially awkward, no confidence etc. and also think beautiful women with lots of options would want to date you. Why would they want to date below their level? You sure don’t.