Perspective

[Gaeta]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

 I went on this date and I was not particularly enamored with it but I was happy with how I approached it, shyness much less, no awkwardness either. Just no real "want" from me. I could also project a fair degree of confidence.

Concentrate on this woman if she'd like to see you again, the 'wants' can develop over a couple of dates, forget about the July woman, she's not romantically interested in you. 

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, Gaeta said:

Concentrate on this woman if she'd like to see you again, the 'wants' can develop over a couple of dates, forget about the July woman, she's not romantically interested in you. 

Unfortunately I do not find this one I went on date with appealing at all. Conversation was very one sided and I just went to see if I could not let awkwardness get in the way of a conversation. Unfortunately she is also too young at 28yo and again nothing really in common, I bought her dinner but when we left we both acknowledged there would not be a second date. No chemistry.

July one is the person I really, really, really want to take on a date because I've got massive levels of attraction with her from a intellectual point of view and a lifestyle point of view but reluctantly I do agree she does not seem to be particularly interested but I can choose how I react here, either I go back to feeling terrible or I simply keep believing in the idea she might be interested and thus I get the meet up in July and try. Ultimately there is quite a lot I can offer her from a social point of view which I guess is a poor foundation and one I would not ordinarily use but there is definitely something about her.

The brutal truth is I do not really have any other viable options....something else I need to try not think about.

[basil67]

32 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Ultimately there is quite a lot I can offer her from a social point of view which I guess is a poor foundation and one I would not ordinarily use but there is definitely something about her.

It's not a poor foundation - it's zero foundation for a relationship.   

If she wants you because she enjoys your company and wants to spend more time with you, that's fabulous.  But I imagine she'd be quite offended if she realised that you though she was the kind of woman who'd give a relationship in exchange for access to social events.   Unless of course, she is the kind of woman who'd settle in exchange for social connections....

 

[ZA Dater]

12 minutes ago, basil67 said:

It's not a poor foundation - it's zero foundation for a relationship.   

If she wants you because she enjoys your company and wants to spend more time with you, that's fabulous.  But I imagine she'd be quite offended if she realised that you though she was the kind of woman who'd give a relationship in exchange for access to social events.   Unless of course, she is the kind of woman who'd settle in exchange for social connections....

 

Not saying she would but it could work in a friendship scenario. I am open to either friendship or a relationship. 

Basically I have decided what I have to work with in terms of what I can offer which has been helpful.

To be fair I do not rate my chances but at least I have something to focus on.

[basil67]

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Not saying she would but it could work in a friendship scenario. I am open to either friendship or a relationship. 

Basically I have decided what I have to work with in terms of what I can offer which has been helpful.

To be fair I do not rate my chances but at least I have something to focus on.

Each time you've offered your skills or contacts as an avenue for attracting a woman, you end up resentful and feeling used because you're unsuccessfully trying to blur the line between professional and romance/friendship.   Skills are contacts are not the basis for a friendly or romantic relationship and this is why it always gets you nowhere.

Being equally fond of each other is where interpersonal relationships begin 

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Each time you've offered your skills or contacts as an avenue for attracting a woman, you end up resentful and feeling used because you're unsuccessfully trying to blur the line between professional and romance/friendship.   Skills are contacts are not the basis for a friendly or romantic relationship and this is why it always gets you nowhere.

Being equally fond of each other is where interpersonal relationships begin 

Reality for me is finding that mutual attraction is near impossible so instead of resenting that fact I can turn it around and simply just try do my best to try and be attractive to people I find attractive. 

I find the communication between her and me very confusing to be honest, it's overly friendly sometimes and other times less so. Replies are quicker now though.

Unfortunately be it right or be it wrong many people around me do have transactional relationships to lesser or greater degrees.

With a potential meet up in July, granted this was supposed to be in Feb I can at least focus on something that's on the surface at least positive.

I'm really really trying to find the good. Going out on Saturday I managed to avoid that lonely feeling afterwards, sure it was not a good date but I was happy with me and what managed to accomplish from myself.

Again though my options are extremely limited.

[basil67]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

Reality for me is finding that mutual attraction is near impossible so instead of resenting that fact I can turn it around and simply just try do my best to try and be attractive to people I find attractive. 

Having contacts is useful - not attractive.

[ZA Dater]

37 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Having contacts is useful - not attractive.

That is me though, I see myself as useful rather than attractive. Its not like I am going to ever be approached in the street or in a coffee shop. 

My focus now is to try and rid myself of some of the things which do not help me and that is a day by day challenge. Of course it does not help that once again I need to go to a dinner where very other person has a partner and I arrive alone, it is awkward but I'll just have to deal with it and not feel too bad about myself.

My question, do you back your own judgement or do you question this? Reason I ask is because I tend to take a very conservative view which I think can be unhelpful with dating.

[FredEire]

15 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

That is me though, I see myself as useful rather than attractive. Its not like I am going to ever be approached in the street or in a coffee shop. 

My focus now is to try and rid myself of some of the things which do not help me and that is a day by day challenge. Of course it does not help that once again I need to go to a dinner where very other person has a partner and I arrive alone, it is awkward but I'll just have to deal with it and not feel too bad about myself.

My question, do you back your own judgement or do you question this? Reason I ask is because I tend to take a very conservative view which I think can be unhelpful with dating.

I think you're making positive strides OP, from your last few posts. But I still think some of your thinking is a bit off.

You don't have to "rid" yourself of anything, I used to think this as well because I fundamentally didn't like myself and would project some lofty ideal onto others. Rather you have to accept yourself fully as you are, warts and all.

Also as basil said useful is a great quality in a friend but it's not really attractive. What matters more there is being an open, strong individual who is genuine with those around them and willing to be vulnerable, not a useful person running around doing favours.

I remember I was crazy about a girl in high school. I used to do her every favour you could think of. And guess what? She said "aww thanks very much you're so sweet" and then she dated the jock who was playful and teasing with her. You should only do favours because you feel like being generous, not because you want a relationship out of it.

[basil67]

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

That is me though, I see myself as useful rather than attractive. Its not like I am going to ever be approached in the street or in a coffee shop. 

Regarding you not being approached by women when in public, most guys aren't going to be approached in the street or a coffee shop.   Instead, I would imagine the average woman is more likely to connect when there's already been a bit of positive conversation

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

My question, do you back your own judgement or do you question this? Reason I ask is because I tend to take a very conservative view which I think can be unhelpful with dating.

I can't say I ever put much judgement into things at all.  I'd just do whatever came into my head at the time.  Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.  

[basil67]

9 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Also as basil said useful is a great quality in a friend but it's not really attractive. What matters more there is being an open, strong individual who is genuine with those around them and willing to be vulnerable, not a useful person running around doing favours.

I don't even think that 'useful' is a great quality in a friend.  In friendship, I want someone who I can hang out with, laugh with, share my life with, to be able to support each other through the trials of life.  

What I find romantically attractive in a man is confidence, being a man's man, an easy laugh, a twinkle in his eye, easy conversation, able to talk about things other than himself, compassionate and inclusive. 

[FredEire]

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I don't even think that 'useful' is a great quality in a friend.  In friendship, I want someone who I can hang out with, laugh with, share my life with, to be able to support each other through the trials of life.  

What I find romantically attractive in a man is confidence, being a man's man, an easy laugh, a twinkle in his eye, easy conversation, able to talk about things other than himself, compassionate and inclusive. 

Fair point. I think it's nice if a friend has a useful skill eg. one of my best friends is a graphic designer and has done some drawings for me, another is a PT and has helped me with some fitness and injury questions.

It's very far down the list of what I'd like about those guys, though, and I'd still be friends with them if they didn't have those skills.

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, FredEire said:

I think you're making positive strides OP, from your last few posts. But I still think some of your thinking is a bit off.

You don't have to "rid" yourself of anything, I used to think this as well because I fundamentally didn't like myself and would project some lofty ideal onto others. Rather you have to accept yourself fully as you are, warts and all.

Also as basil said useful is a great quality in a friend but it's not really attractive. What matters more there is being an open, strong individual who is genuine with those around them and willing to be vulnerable, not a useful person running around doing favours.

I remember I was crazy about a girl in high school. I used to do her every favour you could think of. And guess what? She said "aww thanks very much you're so sweet" and then she dated the jock who was playful and teasing with her. You should only do favours because you feel like being generous, not because you want a relationship out of it.

I've tried that in the past back in school, it never works. I'll have to try and ignore my own reservations but that's quite difficult. Also trying to ignore past history is not easy either. 

I'll have to take a leap but I am suspecting she probably isn't single anymore. Which basically puts me in friend zone. Finding that self belief is really not easy. Any suggestions most welcome.

[basil67]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I'll have to take a leap but I am suspecting she probably isn't single anymore. Which basically puts me in friend zone.

If you don't know her relationship status, then you're not close enough to be called a friend. Nor are you in the 'friendzone'.  You're an acquaintance.  

 

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, basil67 said:

If you don't know her relationship status, then you're not close enough to be called a friend. Nor are you in the 'friendzone'.  You're an acquaintance.  

 

I guess so. Again a pretty poor base to start.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I guess so. Again a pretty poor base to start.

Indeed.  There needs to be some kind of decent base to start from.   If neither of you is attempting to move conversation away from work stuff (or whatever the topic is), then it shows that one/both of you lack of interest in cultivating a personal connection.  

 

[ZA Dater]

9 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Indeed.  There needs to be some kind of decent base to start from.   If neither of you is attempting to move conversation away from work stuff (or whatever the topic is), then it shows that one/both of you lack of interest in cultivating a personal connection.  

 

Conversation is never about work, it's more about life, her recent week away, what I think about certain things, general chat really it's never work related thought she has asked me if I know ABC. 

She is very warm, I got a long bday msg which was nice. Though again I suppose this is normal.

What I am attempting to do here is not go down the negative road and try remain positive about some possibilities which means having to ignore my own thinking to a large degree. Inherently I think the worst based on a set of info I have at hand.

Walking on my own for long distances has helped clear my mind a bit but it's also made me realise that not one of the people I have ever expressed interest in has reciprocated that interest. It's very tough to accept that.

I've possibly got an opportunity here but again I live with the regret of not doing more when her hands were all over me at that event. 

Mostly trying to keep myself in a hopeful space mindful that I have no other possibilities.

[basil67]

15 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Conversation is never about work, it's more about life, her recent week away, what I think about certain things, general chat really it's never work related thought she has asked me if I know ABC. 

How can you talk about all of this and not know her relationship status?  Who did she go on holidays with?  Who does she hang out with on weekends?  

A positive attitude is certainly better than a negative one, but if you want success, you've got to back it up with interpersonal connection.  How often does she message you to start a non-work discussion without you prompting?  

 

Edited May 29 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

13 minutes ago, basil67 said:

How can you talk about all of this and not know her relationship status?  Who did she go on holidays with?  Who does she hang out with on weekends?  

A positive attitude is certainly better than a negative one, but if you want success, you've got to back it up with interpersonal connection.  How often does she message you to start a non-work discussion without you prompting?  

 

It's not very personal conversation in the sense we don't talk about dating or specifics it's very general chit chat. There was some chit chat about her family, her birthday, thing is what's confusing is in person the chat is very personal but getting to meet in person is very difficult indeed.

I suspect I am likely to take a total loss here just like all the others. Conversation with her in person is vastly different to over text. 

My goal really is try keep some sort of positive view which is very challenging. 

In the back of my mind though it's hard to forget I've never been able to date anyone I was interested in.

[basil67]

47 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

It's not very personal conversation in the sense we don't talk about dating or specifics it's very general chit chat. There was some chit chat about her family, her birthday, thing is what's confusing is in person the chat is very personal but getting to meet in person is very difficult indeed.

She went on a holiday.  Now whether you are a friend or are interested in more, there are three essential questions:  What did you see?   Who did you go with?  What did you think of the country?   

She mentioned her family and her birthday.....again who did she celebrate with?  Did she get any lovely gifts?  

You've also mentioned that you think she may well have a boyfriend by now.  What has she said which makes you think this?   Is she active on OLD?  Has she said that she's looking for a relationship?   Did she go on vacation with a mystery man?

If you show interest in her personal life and she's happy to share, this is what tips one from acquaintance to friend. 

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

She went on a holiday.  Now whether you are a friend or are interested in more, there are three essential questions:  What did you see?   Who did you go with?  What did you think of the country?   

She mentioned her family and her birthday.....again who did she celebrate with?  Did she get any lovely gifts?  

You've also mentioned that you think she may well have a boyfriend by now.  What has she said which makes you think this?   Is she active on OLD?  Has she said that she's looking for a relationship?   Did she go on vacation with a mystery man?

If you show interest in her personal life and she's happy to share, this is what tips one from acquaintance to friend. 

Her text communication is pretty bad hence why I day in person is a lot better. Yeah I know she celebrated with family, low key.

I think she was on OLD toward end of last year, mutual friend teased her about swipe left and right.

Again I think more sharing would happen ok person based on past conversation where lots is shared. No idea who she went away with last week other than I know she is very close to her mother. 

She will sometimes take age's to respond and then does so at very random times. She always does respond though.

Ultimately part of me thinks I can only really engage in person and see where I stand. 

[Weezy1973]

@ZA Dater Just a question. A few pages back you swore you were giving up on women. Giving up dating as you’d turned 40 and that was the age you had told yourself you’d no long pursue it. And of course we’ve heard you’re giving up many, many times in the past. 
 

Not even a month later, here you are, not only excited about a crush, but also going on another date with someone you met online. You keep doing the same patterns over and over and over again. Do you recognize it?

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

@ZA Dater Just a question. A few pages back you swore you were giving up on women. Giving up dating as you’d turned 40 and that was the age you had told yourself you’d no long pursue it. And of course we’ve heard you’re giving up many, many times in the past. 
 

Not even a month later, here you are, not only excited about a crush, but also going on another date with someone you met online. You keep doing the same patterns over and over and over again. Do you recognize it?

The date I went on was perhaps I'll advised. I wanted to see if I could get rid of shyness awkwardness. She also mentioned a hook up but I never had that degree of attraction.

As for the crush, if I can't get anything to work I will walk away, you need to understand I am trying to implement life changes in how I think and what I believe.

Let's call her B, she is really amazing. I love conversing with her, I feel something talking to her and it's just amazing but deep down I am trying to ignore negative thoughts, of me not being worthy, of her not being single.

If I could I'd see her every day. Unfortunately it would seem that level of enthusiasm is not shared. I'm going through my mind, reality is nobody I've ever found attractive has reciprocated but I somehow have to ignore that.

[Weezy1973]

That wasn’t the question. Do you recognize your patterns? 

[BaileyB]

8 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Ultimately part of me thinks I can only really engage in person and see where I stand. 

I think you know where you stand… her lack of consistent communication clearly demonstrates a lack of interest. A woman who is interested in a man will make that known…