Perspective

[FredEire]

34 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I tried to meet many people in 10 years on OLD, why would it be any different standing in bar with a glass of water in my hand? Ask yourself why as society we need contrived things like Meetup if everything apparently works so well?

I ask you to sit back and question a lot of this. If the world worked so well why do we have dating apps? My one "relationship" I never argued once but I did disagree at the end "we need to go official", frankly what rubbish, if I am dating you for 7 months clearly we are official, why does society prescribe such arcane nonsense, again ask yourself why?

Guys are expected to make the first move and thus feel the full force of rejection, again why? You talked earlier about having to find things out in a round about way, again why? Why cant people simply be transparent. 

Each time I found someone I liked, I made it quite obvious I was interested and you know what, the minute I did that I suddenly was ignored as has happened now. 

Ask yourself how many things we go along with for no other reason than everyone else simple does it, heck I know people who hate drinking but do it to simply fit it, likewise going to bars, clubs and music festivals. 

Ultimately I think I am simply not a very romantic person so add that to the long list of reasons why I am unattractive.

OLD is completely different to meeting someone in a bar. You jump straight to the face to face encounter, so you know eachother better from the jump, there is no swiping and swiping and thus people aren't as flaky and picky, they judge what's in front of them.

These things have developed because people have been increasingly plugged into the internet and disconnected from the world around them. I agree it's not a positive, but why decry these things and then declare OLD is the same as in person and there's basically no difference?

The reasons why people do these things are incredibly complicated and go back to the stone age. Most people just sort of know social etiquette, like a sixth sense. If it's something that doesn't function in the same way as others you have three choices, to learn how to play the game a little (a good option), to be your blunt self and accept because it's quite atypical some will find it off-putting (also a good option and more genuine to yourself, but it requires thick skin), or to decry society because you don't like or understand it and throw your hands in the air (what you're doing now, perfectly fine but it's never going to make you happy as clearly you're not really that satisfied just living in your own little bubble and never connecting with anyone).

[FredEire]

There's a lot of things at play in any social interaction. You can't think of them in such black and white terms.

For example you might be at a social gathering and tell a woman "You're really beautiful, we should get together some time" as she is standing right next to her colleagues.

If she rejects you your black and white reaction might be "Oh god, more proof that I am just unlovable and there's nothing I can do!"

When in reality she may have thought you were cute, if you'd been speaking to her one to one and built up a bit of rapport it may have played out, but because she was standing right next to her colleagues she felt embarrassed and exposed and it wasn't a pleasant experience for her.

If these are things you don't naturally "get" you have to learn how to or you can just decry society and the way most people function in general, but it's not going to change anything a jot other than making you more resentful.

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, FredEire said:

OLD is completely different to meeting someone in a bar. You jump straight to the face to face encounter, so you know eachother better from the jump, there is no swiping and swiping and thus people aren't as flaky and picky, they judge what's in front of them.

These things have developed because people have been increasingly plugged into the internet and disconnected from the world around them. I agree it's not a positive, but why decry these things and then declare OLD is the same as in person and there's basically no difference?

The reasons why people do these things are incredibly complicated and go back to the stone age. Most people just sort of know social etiquette, like a sixth sense. If it's something that doesn't function in the same way as others you have three choices, to learn how to play the game a little (a good option), to be your blunt self and accept because it's quite atypical some will find it off-putting (also a good option and more genuine to yourself, but it requires thick skin), or to decry society because you don't like or understand it and throw your hands in the air (what you're doing now, perfectly fine but it's never going to make you happy as clearly you're not really that satisfied just living in your own little bubble and never connecting with anyone).

I think my feeling would be much different if I were able to connect with people I found interesting and attractive, factually speaking this has proven to be utterly impossible and there is zero objective proof it will ever happen, even know, here we have someone I get along really well with, hours pass easily and conversation flow and yet its still not enough. Trust me what used to happen is I'd get looked down upon when I did try and start any sort of conversation so eventually I could not be bothered and again "why you not drinking, have a drink man" sorry for me that just off putting.

OLD is exactly the same as in person in the sense nobody is going to swipe right on someone who does not meet their superficial attraction criteria, much the same applies in person perhaps with the proviso a funny confident, charismatic, fun guy MIGHT be able to overcome the lack of physical attraction. My armour of strength has none of those qualities, instead I bring honesty, loyalty, dedication to the table and none of those are sexy enough. Well they might be for someone who themselves has limited options and who themselves is not physically attractive but again that brings us back to square one.

At the end of the day its all about options, you can decry PUA but much of what is spun there is actually the truth to lesser degrees but still true to a point. Being attractive and having options are one in the same because I have spent enough time around very attractive people to know that while dating for them is not easy, they do at least have choice which has it own set of problems. 

My plan is wait till July, see if she msgs me, if she does try and meet up but I have decided I am going to try for some degree of friend zone, clearly I am too unattractive for anything more but I can be quite useful to her which is probably enough to get me a few coffees and lunches (which I will pay for) and by doing this I get to sort of in a way find some conversational happiness. For me for a time at least that will fill some of this lonely void but like most nice things, the more you get the more you want and well that not possible for me.

[ZA Dater]

15 minutes ago, FredEire said:

There's a lot of things at play in any social interaction. You can't think of them in such black and white terms.

For example you might be at a social gathering and tell a woman "You're really beautiful, we should get together some time" as she is standing right next to her colleagues.

If she rejects you your black and white reaction might be "Oh god, more proof that I am just unlovable and there's nothing I can do!"

When in reality she may have thought you were cute, if you'd been speaking to her one to one and built up a bit of rapport it may have played out, but because she was standing right next to her colleagues she felt embarrassed and exposed and it wasn't a pleasant experience for her.

If these are things you don't naturally "get" you have to learn how to or you can just decry society and the way most people function in general, but it's not going to change anything a jot other than making you more resentful.

Here is the thing. Was it so bad not to want to hook up with her but rather actually want to get to know her? Again is society really telling us we must hook up whenever there is a smidgen of an opportunity? Was my judgement wrong?

FYI I'd never ever do what you describe above, it would be a total disaster so my judgement is on point there. I am very very aware of what is not a pleasant experience so I tend to play it very safe and be extremely respectful at all times, brash is not me at all. 

Again the history cannot be ignored, a virgin until 38, its hardly anything to be proud of, a general lack of interest from anyone vaguely interesting and yet I have seen guys dating with absolute ease, have their pick really and many do so spinning absolute nonsense with the view of all they want is to hook up, yet here I arrive with the view of well let me get to know you and lets try connect.

I am really that wrong with that?

[FredEire]

7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I think my feeling would be much different if I were able to connect with people I found interesting and attractive, factually speaking this has proven to be utterly impossible and there is zero objective proof it will ever happen, even know, here we have someone I get along really well with, hours pass easily and conversation flow and yet its still not enough. Trust me what used to happen is I'd get looked down upon when I did try and start any sort of conversation so eventually I could not be bothered and again "why you not drinking, have a drink man" sorry for me that just off putting.

OLD is exactly the same as in person in the sense nobody is going to swipe right on someone who does not meet their superficial attraction criteria, much the same applies in person perhaps with the proviso a funny confident, charismatic, fun guy MIGHT be able to overcome the lack of physical attraction. My armour of strength has none of those qualities, instead I bring honesty, loyalty, dedication to the table and none of those are sexy enough. Well they might be for someone who themselves has limited options and who themselves is not physically attractive but again that brings us back to square one.

At the end of the day its all about options, you can decry PUA but much of what is spun there is actually the truth to lesser degrees but still true to a point. Being attractive and having options are one in the same because I have spent enough time around very attractive people to know that while dating for them is not easy, they do at least have choice which has it own set of problems. 

My plan is wait till July, see if she msgs me, if she does try and meet up but I have decided I am going to try for some degree of friend zone, clearly I am too unattractive for anything more but I can be quite useful to her which is probably enough to get me a few coffees and lunches (which I will pay for) and by doing this I get to sort of in a way find some conversational happiness. For me for a time at least that will fill some of this lonely void but like most nice things, the more you get the more you want and well that not possible for me.

Logic logic logic, this is about feeling not objective proof. As long as you treat meeting a life partner like a quadratic equation the numbers are never going to add up.

[FredEire]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Here is the thing. Was it so bad not to want to hook up with her but rather actually want to get to know her? Again is society really telling us we must hook up whenever there is a smidgen of an opportunity? Was my judgement wrong?

FYI I'd never ever do what you describe above, it would be a total disaster so my judgement is on point there. I am very very aware of what is not a pleasant experience so I tend to play it very safe and be extremely respectful at all times, brash is not me at all. 

Again the history cannot be ignored, a virgin until 38, its hardly anything to be proud of, a general lack of interest from anyone vaguely interesting and yet I have seen guys dating with absolute ease, have their pick really and many do so spinning absolute nonsense with the view of all they want is to hook up, yet here I arrive with the view of well let me get to know you and lets try connect.

I am really that wrong with that?

It depends what the woman wants, if she wants a hookup trying to start something serious with her is going to be a mismatch. If she wants something serious trying for a hookup is going to be a mismatch, pretty simple.

PUA is useful for helping unconfident guys to fake it well enough to get laid. Once the mask slips past the first night though the real insecure him is going to come out and the woman will feel played and cheated. So if you are a player looking for loads of one night stands sure learn PUA, otherwise not so much, it's better just to learn real confidence which comes from a lot of hard work on yourself, so you won't have to resort to "peacocking" and "negging". Also if you are really confident you probably won't need constant sexual conquest as ego validation.

Edited June 2 by FredEire

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Logic logic logic, this is about feeling not objective proof. As long as you treat meeting a life partner like a quadratic equation the numbers are never going to add up.

Everything I do is based on logic, risk and the probability of a positive outcome. Here I was prepared to try a lot more because I did think there was a good possibility of a positive outcome based on how good the conversation was but I stupidly forgot there needs to be physical attraction which is sadly non existent on her part. Though I guess part of me bought into the fact that maybe being me could actually overcome that which was epic stupidity on my part. 

The worst thing I ever did was buy into the idea that maybe I had a chance. Every single time I have done this the result has always been the same, which is why its easier to be defeated than live on false hope.

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, FredEire said:

It depends what the woman wants, if she wants a hookup trying to start something serious with her is going to be a mismatch. If she wants something serious trying for a hookup is going to be a mismatch, pretty simple.

PUA is useful for helping unconfident guys to fake it well enough to get laid. Once the mask slips past the first night though the real insecure him is going to come out and the woman will feel played and cheated. So if you are a player looking for loads of one night stands sure learn PUA, otherwise not so much, it's better just to learn real confidence which comes from a lot of hard work on yourself, so you won't have to resort to "peacocking" and "negging". Also if you are really confident you probably won't need constant sexual conquest as ego validation.

I am sadly never going to find confidence in dating until I find some success and no confidence will assure me I will never find any success so it just keeps going around. Friend took me to a strip club once in the hope it would boost my confidence, actually made me feel far worse because its all fake and nonsense, without being paid they would not give me the time of day. Hated every single moment of it.

I'll stick to what is actually quite a poor plan but its all I have to work with.

[basil67]

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I accept this. However I cannot recall anyone I've found attractive ever giving me a chance.

 

You write this in response to me finding attraction to my husband after meeting him.  

I've said before that both my husband and I are average looking people.  So, his attraction to me also grew as we continued to connect.  I'm not some beauty who kindly gave an average guy a chance.

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

How do you determine they are single? 

You don't determine they are single.  Parties aren't a pickup venue, they are about socialising with different people.  You must not limit yourself to only talking to the beautiful single women because you'd quickly get a reputation as a creeper.   Talk to everyone:  old...young...male...female.  And meet their friends.  If one of the people you talk to during the evening happens to be single and you get on well, well then you may be able to make inroads.   

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Here I was prepared to try a lot more because I did think there was a good possibility of a positive outcome based on how good the conversation was

Given her lack of availability to meet and the lag time answering your texts, the possibility of a positive outcome was low.   A person who's interested will make themselves available and accessible. 

[basil67]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I tried to meet many people in 10 years on OLD, why would it be any different standing in bar with a glass of water in my hand? Ask yourself why as society we need contrived things like Meetup if everything apparently works so well?

I use Meetup as a way to find fellow urban sketchers to go on a sketching day with.  I'd also use if if I was looking for locals who have a book club. Or sew.  What's wrong with having an app which helps to connect like minded people?

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

My one "relationship" I never argued once but I did disagree at the end "we need to go official", frankly what rubbish, if I am dating you for 7 months clearly we are official, why does society prescribe such arcane nonsense, again ask yourself why?

What the actual f***?   Your girlfriend thinks she sees a future with you and wants verbal commitment from you....and you think this is arcane nonsense?  

People can end up in situations where one thinks that it's more serious than the other does, and the only way to help protect ourselves is to have a conversation.  I had a similar conversation with my partner before I moved in with him.  It's commonsense. 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Guys are expected to make the first move and thus feel the full force of rejection, again why? You talked earlier about having to find things out in a round about way, again why? Why cant people simply be transparent. 

Each time I found someone I liked, I made it quite obvious I was interested and you know what, the minute I did that I suddenly was ignored as has happened now. 

Ask yourself how many things we go along with for no other reason than everyone else simple does it, heck I know people who hate drinking but do it to simply fit it, likewise going to bars, clubs and music festivals. 

Ultimately I think I am simply not a very romantic person so add that to the long list of reasons why I am unattractive.

The person who wants the relationship most is the one who makes the first move.  Meanwhile, when your ex was transparent about wanting to be official, you decide her feelings are 'arcane nonsense'

If someone gets ignored when they show romantic interest, it's because the romantic interest isn't mutual.  And one can't keep being friends when they know the other desires more.

The people I know who do bars, clubs and music festivals do it because they want to.  It's a social outlet, it's fun and they enjoy it.  

Given your horrible reaction to your girlfriend wanting verbal commitment, I'd say that not being romantic is the least of your problems.  

 

[BaileyB]

 

Quote

Each time I found someone I liked, I made it quite obvious I was interested and you know what, the minute I did that I suddenly was ignored as has happened now. 

Is this not exactly what you did to the woman that you dated for almost a year - you dismissed her and her feelings in much the same way that you complain about being dismissed by the women to whom you feel attracted and want to date? 
 

Quote

My one "relationship" I never argued once but I did disagree at the end "we need to go official", frankly what rubbish, if I am dating you for 7 months clearly we are official, why does society prescribe such arcane nonsense, again ask yourself why?

 

Edited June 3 by BaileyB

[basil67]

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

My one "relationship" I never argued once but I did disagree at the end "we need to go official", frankly what rubbish, if I am dating you for 7 months clearly we are official, why does society prescribe such arcane nonsense, again ask yourself why?

This wasn't sitting well with me, so I looked back over what you wrote about the end of that relationship.   

In this thread about your breakup you wrote: "Well it would seem she is done. Lot of the conversation was about how things should escalate, it would seem something more committed is what she is looking for."   She wanted commitment and asked for it, but you're trying to pretend that she was being obtuse or doing as "society prescribes".  And you seem to forget than an earlier thread has you with one foot out the door all the time you were dating her.   

I wrote earlier about having to have these conversations because we are at risk of being strung along if we don't.  And there we have it: you were stringing her along... with no intentions of long term commitment or a more committed relationship.  EXACTLY THE REASON WHY PEOPLE NEED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

Why do you misrepresent the facts now?   Are you making stuff up so that you can have a pity party for yourself about how your failed relationship is the fault of society rather than the fault of yourself? 

[Gebidozo]

24 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Why do you misrepresent the facts now?   Are you making stuff up so that you can have a pity party for yourself about how your failed relationship is the fault of society rather than the fault of yourself? 

It sure seems like it. The OP doesn’t want to admit that he lacks empathy and love, so he blames “society” for his inevitable failures.

He’s spun a whole fantasy tale about how cruel women don’t like the poor little him because “society is superficial” and nobody has noticed what a gold mine he is. Except that in reality he doesn’t love anybody and has treated the one woman who did have feelings for him like crap.

This is typical incel thinking and behavior. Self-deception, a cowardly flight from reality, and a heavy dollop of misogyny mixed in. The OP’s clinical division of women into unattainable shiny trophies and plain girls that are “beneath” him is characteristic of those who see women as objects with market values assigned to them.

[ZA Dater]

47 minutes ago, basil67 said:

This wasn't sitting well with me, so I looked back over what you wrote about the end of that relationship.   

In this thread about your breakup you wrote: "Well it would seem she is done. Lot of the conversation was about how things should escalate, it would seem something more committed is what she is looking for."   She wanted commitment and asked for it, but you're trying to pretend that she was being obtuse or doing as "society prescribes".  And you seem to forget than an earlier thread has you with one foot out the door all the time you were dating her.   

I wrote earlier about having to have these conversations because we are at risk of being strung along if we don't.  And there we have it: you were stringing her along... with no intentions of long term commitment or a more committed relationship.  EXACTLY THE REASON WHY PEOPLE NEED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

Why do you misrepresent the facts now?   Are you making stuff up so that you can have a pity party for yourself about how your failed relationship is the fault of society rather than the fault of yourself? 

The primary problem was a lack of romantic attraction, we get along very well hence me still seeing her every so often, we are having lunch this week actually.

It's for this reason I will not try and date people with whom I have no romantic attraction. It simply does not grow and for me does not work.

The fact is I see a conversation about being exclusive superfluous when I have never dating the person for months and clearly am not seeing other people.

[ZA Dater]

15 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Doesn’t love anybody and has treated the one woman who did have feelings for him like crap.

 

Absolutely not true at all. I spent months hoping some feeling of romantic attraction would appear, they never did.

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, basil67 said:

Given her lack of availability to meet and the lag time answering your texts, the possibility of a positive outcome was low.   A person who's interested will make themselves available and accessible. 

The truth is initially I knew I had no chance, then a good friend of mine told me to believe in myself a bit more so I bought into some belief of possibility. Am going to stick to my idea of trying to form some sort of mostly transaction friendship. It's the best outcome I can get here.

[basil67]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The truth is initially I knew I had no chance, then a good friend of mine told me to believe in myself a bit more so I bought into some belief of possibility. Am going to stick to my idea of trying to form some sort of mostly transaction friendship. It's the best outcome I can get here.

Would you believe that you'd get the dream job you apply for if the interviewers weren't calling you back quickly and you were arguably less experienced than some of the other contenders?  This situation was no different.   Confidence does need to have some base in reality

"Transaction friendship" is a contradiction in terms. It's not a real thing.

Edited June 3 by basil67

[basil67]

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The truth is initially I knew I had no chance, then a good friend of mine told me to believe in myself a bit more so I bought into some belief of possibility. Am going to stick to my idea of trying to form some sort of mostly transaction friendship. It's the best outcome I can get here.

You admit that you weren't committed due to your lack of attraction.  If this is the case, why did you write "My one "relationship" I never argued once but I did disagree at the end "we need to go official", frankly what rubbish, if I am dating you for 7 months clearly we are official, why does society prescribe such arcane nonsense, again ask yourself why?"   

Why did you say that her asking about your low commitment was "frankly...rubbish?   And why do you describe her wanting clarification over your low degree of commitment "arcane nonsense"?   

 

Edited June 3 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

You admit that you weren't committed due to your lack of attraction.  If this is the case, why did you write "My one "relationship" I never argued once but I did disagree at the end "we need to go official", frankly what rubbish, if I am dating you for 7 months clearly we are official, why does society prescribe such arcane nonsense, again ask yourself why?"   

Why did you say that her asking about your low commitment was "frankly...rubbish?   And why do you describe her wanting clarification over your low degree of commitment "arcane nonsense"?   

 

I feel that being asked about exclusive after dating for months is really irrelevant because actions indicated exclusivity.

I might not have been attracted but I was committed.

[ZA Dater]

13 minutes ago, basil67 said:

 

"Transaction friendship" is a contradiction in terms. It's not a real thing.

It is and I see these sorts of friendships multiple times a day. There is mutual benefit based on what each has to offer.

A few coffees, lunches and whatever with her will be fine. Certainly a lot better than nothing.

[Gebidozo]

41 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Absolutely not true at all. I spent months hoping some feeling of romantic attraction would appear, they never did.

You don’t hope for romantic attraction to appear, it either appears or it doesn’t. You’ve been mired in your false mindset for so long that your soul has been scorched by it. It has become barren grounds for romantic attraction. That’s why you never feel any. That includes those women you say you were attracted to. You weren’t, really. What you felt wasn’t romantic attraction, but mere excitement at the thought that you met someone who ticked boxes on your list.

[basil67]

9 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I feel that being asked about exclusive after dating for months is really irrelevant because actions indicated exclusivity.

I might not have been attracted but I was committed.

Go back and re-read what you wrote. 

She knew you were exclusive (heck, did she really think you were also seeing other women haha ).  Instead she was wanting a greater level of commitment from you.  It's as plain as day in your previous thread

And it's clear that you weren't committed because you've got one whole long thread about being unsure and having one foot out the door.  And you didn't even talk about the future

Edited June 3 by basil67

[basil67]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

It is and I see these sorts of friendships multiple times a day. There is mutual benefit based on what each has to offer.

A few coffees, lunches and whatever with her will be fine. Certainly a lot better than nothing.

Friendship isn't about mutual benefit.   It's about spending time with a person for no other reason than you really like each other's company

What you're describing is 'spending time with someone you're doing a job for'.   

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Friendship isn't about mutual benefit.   It's about spending time with a person for no other reason than you really like each other's company

What you're describing is 'spending time with someone you're doing a job for'.   

Well yes but we've already established that does not work for me unless I have something to offer.