Perspective

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

When will you understand that what makes you unattractive is exactly this? Your thinking, your worldview, your mentality, your attitude? This is ugly. 

Exactly, and a woman can spot this a mile away… One don’t have to spend much time talking to a man to get a sense for this kind of attitude. The insecurity. The discomfort. The superficiality. The entitlement. Not only is a woman not attracted/not want to date a man who has this kind of mentality/attitude, at worst it’s actually a dangerous position in which to put oneself. Any woman with a decent radar, a healthy sense of self worth, and any sense of self protection is going to avoid a man with this kind of mentality/attitude. 

 

Edited March 27 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

There is zero degree of factual truth in incel thinking. It’s pure rubbish. 

You know why? Because it’s born out of envy, self-pity, self-entitlement, latent aggression, cynicism, mercantilism, lack of faith, lack of hope, lack of love.

Nothing good or true can ever sprout from such roots.

Ok answer me this...why did they become like that, what do you think created those views and that thinking, not all of which I agree with.

People do not suddenly acquire a view without a reason for that view. 

Its great to preach a utopia which is not true for millions. It's exactly this lack of "ok well it doesn't work for everyone" which I find so irritating. 

I respect your view is different to mine, much like I respect your experiences are different to. 

At some point bitter realities need to be swallowed and for me that is a very low chance of ever getting this to work irrespective of which attitude I adopt. The market for shy awkward boring people who lack flirting ability and charm is very small. I can't change the market, I can look yes but my reality is there is no reason for anyone who has options to pick me.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

I wonder if, at some point, you will have a "teachable moment" and be prepared to grow or learn something different from the self talk you have perfected to such an extent.   

What do you think?

I suppose it depends maybe when I can actually attract people I want to date rather than be told "that's your level tough for you".

Over time I have tried different thing's, tried different looks, different approaches, different pictures, tried to summon up all the confidence I can and none of it has brought any discernable results. Case in point this latest lady, did everything I could and still no interest.

Honestly I am at the stage where those around me are all set, all have significant others, those who don't date easily and it's a case of choice so I get teased relentlessly about never having a partner. 

I also have to live with the fact I have missed out on significant parts of life most others have experienced, can't escape that because it's true.

Nobody I find attractive wants to teach. My ex tolerated it but eventually got tired of inexperience.

[NuevoYorko]

sux 2 b u I guess

[basil67]

Will you just listen to yourself?!   Would you want to date someone who sounds like you do?  

[Gebidozo]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok answer me this...why did they become like that, what do you think created those views and that thinking, not all of which I agree with.

People do not suddenly acquire a view without a reason for that view. 

Its great to preach a utopia which is not true for millions. It's exactly this lack of "ok well it doesn't work for everyone" which I find so irritating. 

I respect your view is different to mine, much like I respect your experiences are different to. 

At some point bitter realities need to be swallowed and for me that is a very low chance of ever getting this to work irrespective of which attitude I adopt. The market for shy awkward boring people who lack flirting ability and charm is very small. I can't change the market, I can look yes but my reality is there is no reason for anyone who has options to pick me.

Sure, I’ll answer.

What created those views and that thinking? They created them. What created your views and your thinking? You did.

Nobody is preaching a utopia on this thread except yourself. You are the one claiming that the ugly, unattractive, non-charismatic, non-flirty, funless (your words, not mine) you deserve a tall, thin, childless, at least C-cup breasted, aquiline nosed model with a good grasp of the Sicilian defense in chess and working knowledge of the six systems of ancient Indian philosophy. That’s utopia.

Quite on the contrary, everyone else is telling you to come back to the real world, where people actually work on themselves, become more attractive, and then perhaps (!) find more success and happiness in romance.

 

[ZA Dater]

30 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Will you just listen to yourself?!   Would you want to date someone who sounds like you do?  

Not sure what is so off putting about being honest. I have met people like me in terms of no dating success, there are lots of people like me. One thing they all have in common, they never started off with this point of view, experiences they had shaped that point of view and beliefs. You can say they are wrong and I would agree with you but you cant wish away the experiences that created those points of view.

My outlook would be considerably different if I'd had better experiences, when I started off I had this inherent belief, well it can work for others it can work for me too, until I actually tried and realized that the experiences I was getting were nowhere near what most others were getting, so I thought OK, lets try something else, lets approach things this way and guess what I got the same experiences. Went on date after date, tried everything to try get more attractive matches. Yes, I did catfish once and if anything that was an eye opener, suddenly the conversations were better, people actually tried to impress me because they found me attractive, it was a look at what it must be like for others.

Its easy to say hold you head up and move on, as a person should and as I did but there also comes a time where you question the very fundamentals of what make you up as a person, I looked at decisions made decades ago, owned them, many of them were wrong and I admit that. I can think many things but fundamentally there is zero actual experience to back that up.

In instances where i have really found the person engaging I do try to put my best foot forward to no avail and sure "just move on" is lovely to say but move on to what exactly? Nobody can answer this, certainly not the many different couches I have sat on with people supposed to actually help. I know there is good about me, I know there is good about me, I know what I can do and equally cant do. Ultimately all those experiences did was prove I am unattractive and undesirable.

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Sure, I’ll answer.

What created those views and that thinking? They created them. What created your views and your thinking? You did.

Nobody is preaching a utopia on this thread except yourself. You are the one claiming that the ugly, unattractive, non-charismatic, non-flirty, funless (your words, not mine) you deserve a tall, thin, childless, at least C-cup breasted, aquiline nosed model with a good grasp of the Sicilian defense in chess and working knowledge of the six systems of ancient Indian philosophy. That’s utopia.

Quite on the contrary, everyone else is telling you to come back to the real world, where people actually work on themselves, become more attractive, and then perhaps (!) find more success and happiness in romance.

 

What do they work on? Become more attractive, oh really how do they do that exactly? The word "perhaps" is duly noted. What would you define as more success?

By the way A and B are more appealing to me and no I deserve nothing, that much is pretty clear to me. 

Again I disagree if you are rejected over and over and get no viable matches that is an experience and that creates a thought process. Negative begets negative, I have tried to keep going but for what end, to get much the same results irrespective. Sure, I can spin some positive narrative but that ignore the truth, I have fundamentally failed at dating, at nearly 40 never fallen in love, never experienced what others have, have a largely empty lonely life. Do you think this is what I actually envisaged? 

Yet I am apparently just supposed to ignore this reality. Ok cool.

 

[basil67]

7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Not sure what is so off putting about being honest.

You're kidding right?  Heck, you told us can't even find a positive story about yourself to share on a first date!    Of course the negativity is going to send it downhill. 

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

My outlook would be considerably different if I'd had better experiences, when I started off I had this inherent belief, well it can work for others it can work for me too, until I actually tried and realized that the experiences I was getting were nowhere near what most others were getting, so I thought OK, lets try something else, lets approach things this way and guess what I got the same experiences.

You always talk about the guys with charm and charisma who get the beautiful girls.  But by your own admission charm or charisma, so why would you think it would work for you too?  The regular people I know I don't go punching so far above their weight and then whining when it doesn't work for them, so I actually doubt it's worked for many others.  Regular people I know date other regular people.  And they find the love and partnership and all the good things. 

My 25yo daughter is currently talking about marriage and a future with a guy who's shorter than her.  He's 5'6 and she's nearly 5'8.   I imagine that in your eyes the height difference would be 'settling' but they are delighted to have found each other. You would never attempt doing what they've done because you'd see it as "settling'.  

[ZA Dater]

Things I have done in the last 5 years

1: Work on my fitness and build some muscle to try avoid that skinny look I had at one stage

2: Change the way I dress to encompass better fitting clothes rather than the baggy style I used to

3: Change of hair style

4: Put proper pictures on OLD to try and attract people

5: Tried to be more outgoing when I can.

6: Try work on my understanding of body language but this has not been very useful.

Thing I am bad at

1: Determine if someone is interested 

2: Displaying any degree of charm

3: Flirting

4: Intimacy is NA as there are not many people who appeal in that way and furthermore the inability to do 1-3 means I cant get to that point anyway.

Unfortunately not fitting in for the most part does not help either and a large part of me knows that limits my appeal severely, hard to fit in when since I was kid I made it my mission to just be me and not follow the crowd, turns out the walk of life is lonely when done alone. I curse the opportunities I missed, curse the things I should have done better and regret many things.

For perspective my best friend is brilliant at most of the above, even a business coffee he has the waitress charmed and smiling. Everything about him is confidence and self assurance and unlike me he can read people in the dating context, though I read them better in the board room context. 

His dating outcomes are far different to mine and yes he spins a large amount of nonsense, these ladies seem to love that and enjoy this fun interaction. Me, I am better at problem solving so what tends to happen, I'll meet someone I like and because I know i cannot do most of the above I just adopt a friend zone approach where I can offer something useful to them. 

[Gebidozo]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

What do they work on? Become more attractive, oh really how do they do that exactly? The word "perhaps" is duly noted. What would you define as more success?

By the way A and B are more appealing to me and no I deserve nothing, that much is pretty clear to me. 

Again I disagree if you are rejected over and over and get no viable matches that is an experience and that creates a thought process. Negative begets negative, I have tried to keep going but for what end, to get much the same results irrespective. Sure, I can spin some positive narrative but that ignore the truth, I have fundamentally failed at dating, at nearly 40 never fallen in love, never experienced what others have, have a largely empty lonely life. Do you think this is what I actually envisaged? 

Yet I am apparently just supposed to ignore this reality. Ok cool.

 

That’s not what you envisaged, but that’s what you did. Your “largely empty lonely life” is your work. How come you don’t understand that simple truth?

Even if you were stranded on an uninhabited island for 20 years, you wouldn’t be right complaining about your empty, lonely life. Look what Robinson Crusoe did with his life, can you just imagine the horror of total, real loneliness for decades, yet he didn’t whine like you, he built his own life on the island, with faith, hope, positive attitude, and a whole lot of work. 

You need to understand that such loneliness as yours is a subjective feeling. If you don’t want to be lonely, don’t be. Throw out your stupid “tall, slim etc,” list and go into the real world, connect with real women. You’ve never been in love? Then go and fall in love. Fall in love with a short, chubby, silly girl! Do good deeds without expecting anything in return. Stop your incredibly annoying and off-putting whining. Be simple, sweet, and ready to give and to love.

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, basil67 said:

You're kidding right?  Heck, you told us can't even find a positive story about yourself to share on a first date!    Of course the negativity is going to send it downhill. 

You always talk about the guys with charm and charisma who get the beautiful girls.  But by your own admission charm or charisma, so why would you think it would work for you too?  The regular people I know I don't go punching so far above their weight and then whining when it doesn't work for them, so I actually doubt it's worked for many others.  Regular people I know date other regular people.  And they find the love and partnership and all the good things. 

My 25yo daughter is currently talking about marriage and a future with a guy who's shorter than her.  He's 5'6 and she's nearly 5'8.   I imagine that in your eyes the height difference would be 'settling' but they are delighted to have found each other. You would never attempt doing what they've done because you'd see it as "settling'.  

A regular person is what exactly? I'd argue without any attraction there are no "good things", granted everyone finds different things attractive so yea it probably does work. 

Actually you are wrong I would not see that as settling, I'd see that as a great degree of success because I am guessing there is mutual attraction, for me that underpins the entire concept of dating and relationships. Without mutual attraction all you have is a friend which is fine but the inherent limitations apply. Another thing I only wish others success, one thing very important to me is to wish the best for others, sure I wont get it right but its important to celebrate the success of other doing what I cannot. 

At the end of the day so long as people are happy is there anything else that really matters? 

 

[Alpacalia]

You've written sixteen whole pages dedicated to talking about yourself. That's impressive (or possibly narcissistic).

[basil67]

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

A regular person is what exactly? I'd argue without any attraction there are no "good things", granted everyone finds different things attractive so yea it probably does work. 

 

 

A regular person is one who is pretty much like everyone else..nothing outstanding but nothing terrible. Just regular.  They aren’t a 9 or 10. They aren’t the guy loaded with charisma. But they can have good conversations and they do have attraction to each other because their standards aren’t ridiculously high like yours. 

One of your biggest problems is that you look down on so many people.  Here you are as the guy who stands in the corner at parties complaining about women who can’t hold a conversations. Pot meet Kettle

[ZA Dater]

22 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

You need to understand that such loneliness as yours is a subjective feeling. If you don’t want to be lonely, don’t be. Throw out your stupid “tall, slim etc,” list and go into the real world, connect with real women. You’ve never been in love? Then go and fall in love. Fall in love with a short, chubby, silly girl! Do good deeds without expecting anything in return. Stop your incredibly annoying and off-putting whining. Be simple, sweet, and ready to give and to love.

No thanks. Once again that is settling and I have no interest in doing that. Every person I have found attractive lives in the real world despite what some may say, when I have sat in front of someone who challenges me intellectually, is attractive to me, has an interesting life, communicates well, is well spoken, some common interests. That is what I am looking for and none of those are negotiable because I know those people exist. 

I am accepting though that maybe I can find most of what I like with a friend.

[ZA Dater]

29 minutes ago, basil67 said:

A regular person is one who is pretty much like everyone else..nothing outstanding but nothing terrible. Just regular.  They aren’t a 9 or 10. They aren’t the guy loaded with charisma. But they can have good conversations and they do have attraction to each other because their standards aren’t ridiculously high like yours. 

One of your biggest problems is that you look down on so many people.  Here you are as the guy who stands in the corner at parties complaining about women who can’t hold a conversations. Pot meet Kettle

Again highly subjective. My standards are reasonable but yes I do look for some outstanding quality, heck it can be a smile, it can be someone who is passionate about something, actually that is quite important. It can be someone who is motivated, someone who lives an interesting life. Not unreasonable I think. 

Yeah I'll be in the corner because lets face it being able to debate the merits of the UN and the impact the Cold War has on society today is hardly good party discussion. Nor is economics or that most dastardly topic, politics. Besides when I go to parties as a non drinker I am mostly a pariah anyway. 

I am genuinely happy for your daughter though and I am not being sarcastic. If anyone knows how hard it is to find people, its me.

[Gebidozo]

33 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

No thanks. Once again that is settling and I have no interest in doing that. Every person I have found attractive lives in the real world despite what some may say, when I have sat in front of someone who challenges me intellectually, is attractive to me, has an interesting life, communicates well, is well spoken, some common interests. That is what I am looking for and none of those are negotiable because I know those people exist. 

I am accepting though that maybe I can find most of what I like with a friend.

Dude, I give up. Your thinking is absolutely ridiculous and you stubbornly refuse to listen and learn.

I’m really impressed by the patience of LS people here, though.

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Dude, I give up. Your thinking is absolutely ridiculous and you stubbornly refuse to listen and learn.

I’m really impressed by the patience of LS people here, though.

All good I done with this conversation. I have listened, simply do not want to date someone I do not find attractive, its really that simple and perfectly reasonable.

 

Edited March 27 by ZA Dater

[Gebidozo]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

All good I done with this conversation. I have listened, simply do not want to date someone I do not find attractive, its really that simple and perfectly reasonable.

 

No, it’s not reasonable at all. After all, by your own admission, you are unattractive. Unattractive men should be with unattractive women. That’s only fair. Why should those highly marketable, tall, charismatic beauties be with an ugly guy who can’t flirt and drink? You don’t want to date below your level, why should they? Your level would be a short, fat girl with a regular smile and no opinion about the UN or economics. Aim for that. Good luck!

[Alpacalia]

22 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

All good I done with this conversation. I have listened, simply do not want to date someone I do not find attractive, its really that simple and perfectly reasonable.

Then don't. You don't need 16 pages to say that you don't want to date people who you don't find attractive. If you don't find a certain person attractive then don't date them.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

when I have sat in front of someone who challenges me intellectually, is attractive to me, has an interesting life, communicates well, is well spoken, some common interests. That is what I am looking for and none of those are negotiable because I know those people exist. 

Let's break this down:

First up, yes finding a woman who challenges you intellectually is reasonable.  

Second is attractive to you.  Now we all know that you want tall, slim and beautiful.  However, you can't match this.  Yes, you are slim, but at 5'9 you're not tall and by your own admission are not attractive.  So you can't match what you want

Third is interesting life.  By your own admission, your work is your life.  This is not interesting, so you can't match what you want

Fourth is communicates well.  Earlier we established that your interpersonal conversation is poor because you can't do a two way conversation which involves sharing about yourself.  You stand in corners at parties because you can't talk to anyone.  Again, you can't match what you want. 

Fifth, yes I imagine you are well spoken, so this is reasonable. 

Sixth, common interests.  If your work is your life, what interests could she share?   Unless you want an "all work and no play" kind of woman, it sounds like you can't match what you want.  

So of the six things which are non negotiable, you can only offer two in return.   If you firmly believe that the concept of settling is real, why would this woman go for a guy who can't begin to match what she has to offer?   And you say that you've seen other men find girlfriends who are like this and I'm sure this is true.....but were those same men lacking so many traits which they want in a woman? 

[ZA Dater]

50 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

No, it’s not reasonable at all. After all, by your own admission, you are unattractive. Unattractive men should be with unattractive women. That’s only fair. Why should those highly marketable, tall, charismatic beauties be with an ugly guy who can’t flirt and drink? You don’t want to date below your level, why should they? Your level would be a short, fat girl with a regular smile and no opinion about the UN or economics. Aim for that. Good luck!

The market has deemed me unattractive, I can think whatever I want of myself, its irrelevant the market decides who is attractive and who is not. Its strange you advocate for "there are lots of miss matched couples and yet post this? 

No thanks.

[ZA Dater]

27 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Let's break this down:

First up, yes finding a woman who challenges you intellectually is reasonable.  

Second is attractive to you.  Now we all know that you want tall, slim and beautiful.  However, you can't match this.  Yes, you are slim, but at 5'9 you're not tall and by your own admission are not attractive.  So you can't match what you want

Third is interesting life.  By your own admission, your work is your life.  This is not interesting, so you can't match what you want

Fourth is communicates well.  Earlier we established that your interpersonal conversation is poor because you can't do a two way conversation which involves sharing about yourself.  You stand in corners at parties because you can't talk to anyone.  Again, you can't match what you want. 

Fifth, yes I imagine you are well spoken, so this is reasonable. 

Sixth, common interests.  If your work is your life, what interests could she share?   Unless you want an "all work and no play" kind of woman, it sounds like you can't match what you want.  

So of the six things which are non negotiable, you can only offer two in return.   If you firmly believe that the concept of settling is real, why would this woman go for a guy who can't begin to match what she has to offer?   And you say that you've seen other men find girlfriends who are like this and I'm sure this is true.....but were those same men lacking so many traits which they want in a woman? 

2: Tall being my height which is reasonable. Not attractive in terms of the sexual market place, yes that would seem to be the case

3: I do have an interesting life which unfortunately most cannot relate to, just so happens that interesting life branches off work and hobbies and they intermix.

4: I can indeed share about myself but mostly choose not to because the other person is not attractive.

6: World affairs, politics, economics, business, outdoors, good food those are all interests.

No quite often those men attracted people based on looks, what they are able to provide, charisma and maybe some fun factor. The fact  they slept around, spun endless half truths was deemed to be irrelevant.

But yes you summed up the issue quite nicely. Maybe in one regard my friends advice does make sense: just be their friend.

 

[FredEire]

So the "sexual marketplace" has determined you are unattractive, not you. Except it is completely you, there is no objective ruling body determining who and who isn't attractive and you are negating the fact that every individual woman has different standards. Some will like you, some won't for a myriad of different reasons but that is too complicated and uncomfortable and idea so you prefer a sweeping generalisation that is easy and comfortable and doesn't leave you vulnerable or accountable for becoming a better man and thus more attractive.

 

[ZA Dater]

19 minutes ago, FredEire said:

So the "sexual marketplace" has determined you are unattractive, not you. Except it is completely you, there is no objective ruling body determining who and who isn't attractive and you are negating the fact that every individual woman has different standards. Some will like you, some won't for a myriad of different reasons but that is too complicated and uncomfortable and idea so you prefer a sweeping generalisation that is easy and comfortable and doesn't leave you vulnerable or accountable for becoming a better man and thus more attractive.

 

Ok so tell me then why I get no attractive matches on Tinder, Hinge and Bumble?

The market place has spoken very loudly. Its a wonderful idea that someone like this person I currently enjoy spending time with would find me attractive but guess what its just an idea and nothing more. 

In fact this entire conversation with said friend would never have happened had I not brought in "well maybe I can" and just accepted "no I cant".