Perspective

[basil67]

38 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

As the OP has pointed out, it’s possible to be confident and self assured in some aspects in life, but not others. 

Sure, hubby is not the type to go bothering random women in shopping malls or bars, but he can talk to anyone and has never been chronically single and miserable like the OP.  A guy has got to be able to confidently talk to a variety of people in social situations to get off the starting line.  Again, it's about the midline

Edited March 31 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

On 3/29/2024 at 4:07 PM, Weezy1973 said:

I don’t think so. OP has little to no self worth. He believes that a beautiful woman being attracted to him will mean he’s worthy of being loved. He’s letting his whole sense of worthiness be predicated on his desirability with  women. Which is also why he fears rejection so much. If they reject him, it just confirms what he already believes - that he’s not worthy of being loved.

To some degree that is true. I've spent years on dating sites attracting people simply have no interest to me, it's easy to say go on dates, see if there is some attraction, when there never is it just becomes disheartening.

Unfortunately I prefer slim people. Just how it is, I once went on a date with someone who really had a nice personality, unfortunately zero physical attraction and she did invite me back. I declined.

Not a nice feeling to have to do that.

When I sit opposite someone interesting, who is confident, slim, intelligent, well established life, able to talk on topics. Believe me this is a great way to spend time, shared interests, can share experience, similar life philosophy.

[ZA Dater]

On 3/29/2024 at 4:49 PM, FredEire said:

I wasn't on these boards last year. So there was a relationship without any sort of sexual element?

I've long got the impression that this may be an issue for OP, feeling sexually stunted and impotent could be a large factor in all the resentment issues and self-loathing.

Of course it's a deeply-rooted psychological issue usually that has everything to do with his relationship with himself and his childhood and nothing to do with potential dating partners or the "sexual marketplace". And the way to treat it is, you guessed it, go to therapy.

The issue I think is that confronting issues like this is massively difficult and likely involves huge amounts of emotional pain and introspection. Rather than go through the difficulty of this, the east way out is to create the unobtainable women and "sexual marketplace" strawman. At the same time, trash the idea of therapy as it's a load of "useless sitting around and talking".

None of this is true but I will tell you being a 38yo virgin was not pleasant, it was awkward every time and we simply did not connect. As friends yes, loved spending time but I never felt that magnetic physical attraction. As I feared she could not really relate to my lack of experience.

It's also to an extent why I guess in theory friend zone could work better for me.

[ZA Dater]

On 3/29/2024 at 5:07 PM, BaileyB said:

Despite the comment that she was a good woman or “too good for him,” I believe he spent the entire time trying to convince himself that he could settle for a woman/relationship that he felt was not truly what he wanted… ie, she was more interested/he was never sure that he was attracted to her. 

Absolutely the truth, I asked myself constantly how and why so much if it worked so well but yet I could never be sure I was that physically attracted to her 

I still see her every so often, she is happy with her new bf, what I also did not day is she is 6 year's older and I wasn't sure about that age gap.

[ZA Dater]

On 3/30/2024 at 2:42 PM, FredEire said:

There has to be a flirty, physical aspect to the relationship from early on. Teasing, respectful playful touching and a lot of laughing, all of these build attraction. There's no easy way to fake this though as PUAs try to do. You just have to be in touch with your sexuality/masculinity and having a good time in life.

I think I the "friend zone" develops most often either when interactions are dry or overly polite or they enjoy your company but don't find you physically attractive and the chemistry isn't enough to compensate for that. In either of those cases you have to either accept you've gained a friendship and enjoy it for what it's worth, or if there's too many feelings involved respectfully cut her off.

No flirting means instant friend zone, it's a vital skill which I fundamentally lack. All my interactions are polite so again no luck for me.

 

[FredEire]

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

None of this is true but I will tell you being a 38yo virgin was not pleasant, it was awkward every time and we simply did not connect. As friends yes, loved spending time but I never felt that magnetic physical attraction. As I feared she could not really relate to my lack of experience.

It's also to an extent why I guess in theory friend zone could work better for me.

With all due respect, I didn't know you are/were a virgin just a couple of years ago but that fact in itself seems to confirm what I said. There's nothing "wrong" with being a virgin at any age but I suspect with most individuals if it goes much beyond the teenage years and way into adulthood it's nothing to do with lack of "value in the sexual marketplace".

I've met people who putting it politely are very very low on the looks scale, people who are extremely shy and unassertive, but by their late 20s they would have all had a bit of sexual experience.

I have one particular friend who is the same age as myself (30) and still a virgin, and he's an average to above average looking guy. The one thing he does have is crippling self-doubt, anxiety and depression issues. He struggles to connect with people and is often very averse to getting into or fully engaging in conversations, with people in general.

If you're that sexually inexperienced there is going to be some issue around sex and physical contact there in my opinion, almost 100% of the time. I think it's something you need to explore.

[ZA Dater]

11 minutes ago, FredEire said:

With all due respect, I didn't know you are/were a virgin just a couple of years ago but that fact in itself seems to confirm what I said. There's nothing "wrong" with being a virgin at any age but I suspect with most individuals if it goes much beyond the teenage years and way into adulthood it's nothing to do with lack of "value in the sexual marketplace".

I've met people who putting it politely are very very low on the looks scale, people who are extremely shy and unassertive, but by their late 20s they would have all had a bit of sexual experience.

I have one particular friend who is the same age as myself (30) and still a virgin, and he's an average to above average looking guy. The one thing he does have is crippling self-doubt, anxiety and depression issues. He struggles to connect with people and is often very averse to getting into or fully engaging in conversations, with people in general.

If you're that sexually inexperienced there is going to be some issue around sex and physical contact there in my opinion, almost 100% of the time. I think it's something you need to explore.

I have always been shy and awkward though have tried to improve in recent years. For me it's just been all rejection and by some miracle I found someone who I enjoyed spending time with but was not really that physically attracted to,  dated for a few months, really enjoyed having someone to share with but always regretted I was not more experienced.

It's difficult to know I am so far behind most others. Maybe it provides context as to why for years and still now I do see friend zone as being substantially inferior to dating but I can't exactly take a friend with a bf on weekend away.

I also can't seduce because I don't know how to, can't flirt, can't charm. You imagine this does not feel great.

Guys I know they'd go out to hook up, they'd all laugh me as that would never happen for me, I still get teased about it.

 

[ZA Dater]

22 minutes ago, FredEire said:

With all due respect, I didn't know you are/were a virgin just a couple of years ago but that fact in itself seems to confirm what I said. There's nothing "wrong" with being a virgin at any age but I suspect with most individuals if it goes much beyond the teenage years and way into adulthood it's nothing to do with lack of "value in the sexual marketplace".

 

 The one thing he does have is crippling self-doubt. He struggles to connect with people and is often very averse to getting into or fully engaging in conversations, with people in general.

I can relate, mostly I have just given up, there will always be so someone better than me a swipe away so why bother, even assuming I was able to flirt and charm. I'll engage on topics that interest me.

It hurts but such is life and honesty what I do not need is another lecture about "average", I like what I like. 

[Wiseman2]

Maybe you have undiagnosed neuropsychiatric issues that interfere with being able to relate to people or have empathy? For example ASD can be undetected as well as schizophrenia and other issues that make people feel isolated and unable to relate to anyone normally.

Why not see a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health and get some tests done, perhaps ask for a referral to a neurologist and psychiatrist for further evaluation?  Fortunately there are excellent treatments and therapy for those things, but not for being in cults like incels. 

Edited March 31 by Wiseman2

[ZA Dater]

8 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Maybe you have undiagnosed neuropsychiatric issues that interfere with being able to relate to people or have empathy? For example ASD can be undetected as well as schizophrenia and other issues that make people feel isolated and unable to relate to anyone normally.

Why not see a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health and get some tests done, perhaps ask for a referral to a neurologist and psychiatrist for further evaluation?  Fortunately there are excellent treatments and therapy for those things, but not for being in cults like incels. 

I relate to people just fine, I just know I am not attractive so the conversation is just that a normal conversation. Empathy, I don't lack that at all but those around me most of the time severely lack it.

It just is what it is, decided to not have any birthday celebration because I have nothing I want to celebrate nor do I want any fuss. Not having someone significant to share life with is not pleasant but as a friend said to me " it could be worse" so I'll stick with that.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I can relate, mostly I have just given up, there will always be so someone better than me a swipe away so why bother, even assuming I was able to flirt and charm. I'll engage on topics that interest me.

There’s always someone “better” than all of us yet people date, fall in love, and have relationships all the time. It’s not about someone else being “better”. 

[Gaeta]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Unfortunately I prefer slim people. Just how it is

It's beyond looking for someone slim. She has to be tall, beautiful, with personality, articulate, and the list goes on and on. 

[NuevoYorko]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I relate to people just fine,

No you don't.  You "relate" to people as if they / we are one dimensional objects with a very limited amount of characteristics.   Profoundly superficial.

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, Gaeta said:

It's beyond looking for someone slim. She has to be tall, beautiful, with personality, articulate, and the list goes on and on. 

Honestly I see no problem with that.

Edited April 1 by ZA Dater

[ZA Dater]

The other truth where people are correct is even if I could attract people I did find attractive I'd still lack dating experience so they'd move on very quickly. 

Not sure that's a rejection I'd like to experience again, ultimately that was one of the reasons the last relationship did not work, lack of experience. 

Yesterday I matched with someone, she wanted to meet up immediately and I could see where this was going, I threw the brakes on and she lost interest pretty quickly, again judgement. 

If someone struggles to date they are going to struggle to hook up too, morally not sure a random hookup appeals. 

At least browsing dating sites is relatively harmless.

[basil67]

47 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Yesterday I matched with someone, she wanted to meet up immediately and I could see where this was going, I threw the brakes on and she lost interest pretty quickly, again judgement. 

Where was it going?  And what happened to make you think this?

Given that you got wary and threw the brakes on, what is the relevance of her losing interest?  That was the goal of stopping everything in it's tracks, yes...

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Honestly I see no problem with that.

The fact that you can't achieve this goal and it's been making you utterly miserable for years about that suggests that it is indeed a problem. 

[ZA Dater]

43 minutes ago, basil67 said:

The fact that you can't achieve this goal and it's been making you utterly miserable for years about that suggests that it is indeed a problem. 

It is what it is. I will just have to adapt better to not being able to do this. 

[ZA Dater]

49 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Where was it going?  And what happened to make you think this?

Given that you got wary and threw the brakes on, what is the relevance of her losing interest?  That was the goal of stopping everything in it's tracks, yes...

She was after some quick hookup when I wanted to chat more the interest was lost.

[basil67]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

It is what it is. I will just have to adapt better to not being able to do this. 

Goals are great to have, but they need to be reasonably achievable.  Generally speaking, one has to work through a series of goals to reach the ultimate.  

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

She was after some quick hookup when I wanted to chat more the interest was lost.

Did she actually tell you that she wanted a hookup?   Or were you assuming this based on her wanting to meet quickly?  

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Goals are great to have, but they need to be reasonably achievable.  Generally speaking, one has to work through a series of goals to reach the ultimate.  

Did she actually tell you that she wanted a hookup?   Or were you assuming this based on her wanting to meet quickly?  

"Lets meet at XYZ, my place is around the corner". That's after sending me some erotic poem she wrote.

Lot of what I need to do is just accept I can't actually achieve that goal, find some degree of comfort somehow which is going to be challenging. Went back to dating sites again no matches. 

Inexperience is a fundamental problem and I am very glad for the candid post re that.

 

[basil67]

Yep that's a hookup!   

It's a shame that you can't better manage your expectations so that you don't say single for life, but I guess it is what it is

[ZA Dater]

10 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Yep that's a hookup!   

It's a shame that you can't better manage your expectations so that you don't say single for life, but I guess it is what it is

When I look back it was always going to be like this, my first crush, rejected, second crush rejected, first person interested in me, no attraction, I have always found a particular type of person to be attractive and unfortunately that type of person is never likely to find me attractive. 

Time is an uncomfortable enemy though, everyone else married, kids, dating and Mr well it's even more challenging now as k have neither the experience nor the confidence. 

Someone said it's settling to spend time with someone who won't date or sleep with me but the flip side is at least to some degree I can enjoy the idea if not the reality.

[basil67]

22 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

When I look back it was always going to be like this, my first crush, rejected, second crush rejected, first person interested in me, no attraction,

This is completely normal and should not be part of your narrative.  Also everyone experiences this when young

Quote

I have always found a particular type of person to be attractive and unfortunately that type of person is never likely to find me attractive

Yes, you've said this more times than I can count.

Quote

Time is an uncomfortable enemy though, everyone else married, kids, dating and Mr well it's even more challenging now as k have neither the experience nor the confidence.

Yes, if you refuse to change then this is the result. I'm not sure why you're repeating all of this.  Again, it's been said countless times.

Quote

Someone said it's settling to spend time with someone who won't date or sleep with me but the flip side is at least to some degree I can enjoy the idea if not the reality.

I would say that if I discovered that my looks were part of why someone was my friend, I'd stop being their friend.  It's not about you settling, rather it's about you using someone else to make yourself feel good.  It's not cool

Edited April 1 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, basil67 said:

This is completely normal and should not be part of your narrative.  

Yes, you've said this more times than I can count.

If you refuse to change then this is the result. 

I would say that if I discovered that my looks were part of why someone was my friend, I'd stop being their friend.  It's not about you settling, rather it's about you using someone else to make yourself feel good.

It's not look's entirely it's actually more slanted toward personality and confidence and yes being slim is nice as is a pretty face. What I find attractive is very personality based but that personality cannot overcome a lack of physical attraction. 

There is no tangible good reason to change what I find attractive.