Perspective

[ZA Dater]

Just now, Gebidozo said:

But you can’t just find 6 women in a shop attractive. It sounds ridiculous. Did you even talk to them? You can’t find women attractive just by looking at them. Attraction is neither an aesthetic evaluation nor something you can just decide you have because someone corresponds to your artificial list of “standards”. Your “standards” aren’t too high, they are just irrelevant and inapplicable.

Physically attractive yes. Irrelevant to you perhaps but not to me.

[Gebidozo]

7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Physically attractive yes. Irrelevant to you perhaps but not to me.

Physical attraction is not “looking at 6 girls in a shop and deciding they are attractive”. It happens when you get to know a person. Which you can’t do just by looking. You honestly don’t understand that? Or are you trolling?

You meet a girl, start talking to her, and during conversation mutual physical attraction may gradually occur. Chemistry begins to develop. Or it doesn’t, then both just move on.

That’s how it happens with literally everyone I know. Nobody I know walks around with a list of “standards” and measures unknown women in a shop for compatibility with them. People meet, talk, physical attraction occurs, they kiss, have sex at some point, and then deeper feelings might develop, or not.

I’m beginning to think that maybe you’re just trolling everyone here.

Edited April 5 by Gebidozo

[FredEire]

6 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

It will be a very cold day in ..... before I consider that absolute waste of money no value add activity. I admit it probably does work for others, I have been to many and taken zero value from any of them.

Everything I have ever managed to do in life has never come easily, I was teased relentlessly growing up, I had the misfortune to have a sibling charge at me with a knife (she decided to take a different path in life) and I have seen a father turf his wife a child onto the street. Which is why it irks me when the insinuation is I seem to live in some sort of utopia or models and everything that is nice and yes I do get to live there some of the time with the extravagant parties the pretty people. Equally I often socialize with very successful people but I sit and have lunch people who have very little. One thing I do try and do is relate to others.

Its this rather strange lifestyle which I think is either a benefit or a cure depending on who you ask. Its difficult to find someone to fit into this.

It seems the experienced raised some sort of anger in you. This is a very common response from people who are not ready to confront their feelings. They characterise the therapist as some sort of threat and reject them.

No, on the contrary it's very plain from how you write that you have had a tough life and have some demons in your closet. I do firmly believe though that this is the real issue you need to confront, all the dating stuff is a storm of bullsh*t and a red herring. You are projecting the issues onto something external which you can't control.

[BaileyB]

14 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I have been to many and taken zero value from any of them.

That tells us that the problem wasn’t the therapists…

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, FredEire said:

It seems the experienced raised some sort of anger in you. This is a very common response from people who are not ready to confront their feelings. They characterise the therapist as some sort of threat and reject them.

No, on the contrary it's very plain from how you write that you have had a tough life and have some demons in your closet. I do firmly believe though that this is the real issue you need to confront, all the dating stuff is a storm of bullsh*t and a red herring. You are projecting the issues onto something external which you can't control.

Well we can just agree to disagree, been to a few therapists and found no value whatsoever even when I did open up. Nothing about any of these experiences was positive and certainly not helpful either.

I am my own toughest critic.

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

That tells us that the problem wasn’t the therapists…

Yeah there was no useful value to be had which had any real positive impact on my life, if anything those experiences just made me even more resolute in my utter distaste for that entire industry. 

[ZA Dater]

12 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

As he has touched on before, there is a possibility of "purchasing" the object of his desires.  It will cost plenty, but at least his needs are 100% able to be fulfilled by appearances and superficial personality traits that can be assumed by any socially adept escort.  So this may still be in the cards, as long as his earning power gets to that point.

You seem to think I had not considered this. The reality is its a sham and I could never avoid the feeling of fakeness as well as the general poor value. Much like having a stripper all over me telling me I look so good, its frankly nonsense. Telling people what they want to hear is the greatest form of false flattery.

 

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Yeah there was no useful value to be had which had any real positive impact on my life, if anything those experiences just made me even more resolute in my utter distaste for that entire industry. 

That’s because you don’t understand the value. You believe if you were more attractive, all of your problems would be solved. Going to therapy isn’t going to make you more attractive, therefore you find it useless. 
 

But it’s the belief that’s the problem. Not your “level” of attractiveness. And that’s where therapy can help. You need to challenge your own beliefs and worldview, and clearly you haven’t been able to do that.

 

And to be clear, most people posting can relate to a lot of what you say, as they’ve felt similar in their pasts. But those beliefs tend to go away as we mature and learn. You are clinging onto the same worldview you’ve had since high school. 

[FredEire]

5 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

That’s because you don’t understand the value. You believe if you were more attractive, all of your problems would be solved. Going to therapy isn’t going to make you more attractive, therefore you find it useless. 
 

But it’s the belief that’s the problem. Not your “level” of attractiveness. And that’s where therapy can help. You need to challenge your own beliefs and worldview, and clearly you haven’t been able to do that.

 

And to be clear, most people posting can relate to a lot of what you say, as they’ve felt similar in their pasts. But those beliefs tend to go away as we mature and learn. You are clinging onto the same worldview you’ve had since high school. 

There's a lot of philosophies that teach that feeling of a lack of something does not come from external sources, as much as we may believe it. "If only I was rich I would be happy, if only I could find my dream girl I would be happy".

Instead it comes from within, that which we are lacking which we are not able to give ourselves. OP thought he would find a partner and be happy, but when he did surprise surprise it didn't work, because she wasn't what he really needed to fill that hole and so the relationship went south because it could never be enough.

I agree its what he was expecting of therapy that likely led to the frustration. He wanted show up to the therapist, give them money and receive happiness and become more attractive in return, a transaction just as he thinks of everything else. But again it's another defense mechanism because deep down he knows therapy and transformation requires a lot of hard and painful work.

[NuevoYorko]

OP's situation is a conundrum, though for the most part of his own making.   I'm sure he has his challenges like most all of us do, and some of them, like being neurodivergent, are not his "fault."  

The puerile insistence on clinging to childlike, black and white notions that help him feel like a hapless victim - and his determination to ONLY look for confirmation bias for those views - ARE 100% his own responsibility.

It's ludicrous how much attention he continuously garners in these mind-numbing, circular and agonizingly simplistic, entitled and insulting threads.   

Meanwhile, there are people in every block of every town or city in the world who have issues that far exceed those that this fellow has made his life's work to bemoan, who are finding their own paths to fulfillment.

No, the world does not exist on a linear scale with the only criteria being the most mundane and superficial things:  What someone looks like and whether they can "flirt."   

OP, you project your own minimal level of depth onto the world around you.  Meanwhile the world and the people in it are functioning on all kinds of levels.

If you would seek more depth yourself you would be able to recognize different things and expand your value system.  Don't bother arguing with me - I assure you, I know you do not have any interest in this line of thought.

You just want to be an entitled, white male VICTIM who isn't getting handed a gorgeous woman just because you are a white man with a decent job and evidently not a violent sociopath.

It does not work that way and most of the women you would like to acquire as an accessory to your life are looking for something far beyond a handsome face, good job, lack of sociopathy and the ability to freaking FLIRT.   

So carry on and keep spinning.  I'm sure I will see you on the tail end of another of your epically redundant self pity festivals.

 

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

That’s because you don’t understand the value. You believe if you were more attractive, all of your problems would be solved. Going to therapy isn’t going to make you more attractive, therefore you find it useless. 
 

But it’s the belief that’s the problem. Not your “level” of attractiveness. And that’s where therapy can help. You need to challenge your own beliefs and worldview, and clearly you haven’t been able to do that.

 

And to be clear, most people posting can relate to a lot of what you say, as they’ve felt similar in their pasts. But those beliefs tend to go away as we mature and learn. You are clinging onto the same worldview you’ve had since high school. 

I'd only cling to something that's confirmed to me over and over again. Make no mistake I take a lot of value from your advice and I am glad in some way you can relate.

Heck when I had must last good "yea I really like her interaction conversation" at that time your advice and that of others was squarely in my mind, I dropped the armour, showed some vulnerability, ran with the conversation tried to show as much confidence as I could, heck I tried to apply as much as I could and it was easier because I had someone engaging.

In some respects my entire dating journey is basically challenging the belief that I can't which is difficult when over and over again it does not work. You are right friend zone doesn't work but I sort of look to pull whatever good I can from that, K did events with me for years, ok granted there was some transactional benefit but she knew that was a sham and went along with it anyway.

I do believe beliefs can change but there needs to be some change in how any improvement is determined. Again go our to lunch today with a friend he immediately tells me the lady behind the counter is perfect for me, this irks me "would you date her" much stammering later he eventually admits he would not. This type of thing really does not help.

I realise some here get hugely irritated but I do actually read I do actually take on board and try apply where I can.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

There's a lot of philosophies that teach that feeling of a lack of something does not come from external sources, as much as we may believe it. "If only I was rich I would be happy, if only I could find my dream girl I would be happy".

Instead it comes from within, that which we are lacking which we are not able to give ourselves. OP thought he would find a partner and be happy, but when he did surprise surprise it didn't work, because she wasn't what he really needed to fill that hole and so the relationship went south because it could never be enough.

I agree its what he was expecting of therapy that likely led to the frustration. He wanted show up to the therapist, give them money and receive happiness and become more attractive in return, a transaction just as he thinks of everything else. But again it's another defense mechanism because deep down he knows therapy and transformation requires a lot of hard and painful work.

Hard work, no sorry it's just been for me a total waste of time with no benchmark to measure improvement, it's a great job to have keep getting people to pay to talk to you while you talk then through issues most of which cannot be related but heck keep them talking and leading them into some form of hope.

Sorry I have sat with a few, never again. 

Remember she broke up with me not vice versa....I was feeling under pressure at the time and in indecisive land where I find myself often when it comes to dating. In hindsight I probably should have bent over backwards a bit more.

[Gaeta]

About hiring a dating coach? 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Remember she broke up with me not vice versa....I was feeling under pressure at the time and in indecisive land where I find myself often when it comes to dating. In hindsight I probably should have bent over backwards a bit more.

In hindsight, you shouldn’t have been dating a woman for almost a year if you were “indecisive.” She deserved more than that - and it sounds like she finally realized that and found someone else to date who was more interested in a relationship with her. 

[FredEire]

44 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

About hiring a dating coach? 

I think this would be a good compromise, OP. A professional who wouldn't necessarily dig into the more personal stuff but might help give you some pointers in this area of your life and be equipped on how best to guide you in the right direction.

I think you've got some great advice from the good people on here but we're all just people trying to figure romance and dating out ourselves and none of us are professionals, also we're only able to communicate through text so some in-person advice would be more helpful.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Gaeta said:

About hiring a dating coach? 

Have looked at this actually and watch a fair number of videos in respect of this. Before I can look at that I need to somehow become more attractive because the danger with dating coaches is it becomes a PUA scenario and frankly I not a person who has the confidence to try that. 

Way I see it I need more attraction and more confidence as a very minimum to be able to even think about dating coaches. 

Everyone who says a change of outlook is needed, would be correct. A few years ago I needed a similar change and that came in the form of a makeover type scenario which from the makeover point of view was not very successful but it was from the point of view of spending time with someone who did significantly boost my confidence. To this day I reckon she might be the kindest, nicest and most interesting person I may ever meet.

 

[Gaeta]

7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Have looked at this actually and watch a fair number of videos in respect of this.

I'm talking about a real life dating coach and preferably a reputable organization located in your city.

[Gaeta]

9 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I can look at that I need to somehow become more attractive

You don't know how to do that on your own that's why you need a coach. You have a distorded idea of what women want in a man, and you have an equally distorded idea of what male confidence is. 

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

I'm talking about a real life dating coach and preferably a reputable organization located in your city.

I'd look at it but I'd want to see their CV first, otherwise its another snake oil sales person scenario. I'd also want a target approach else it becomes another therapy scenario of no real gains.

I did once go to a single evening which I found rather contrived and must be said I did not fit in very well but that is fairly normal for me so no surprise there!

As for coffee date, its day three now so lets see how many days elapse, I am sure I will get a response at some stage but yes its safe to assume its friend zone here which might have been the case had I done this and that and this and that, so I get to lament that at leisure. There is always a lot to lament anyway.

Meanwhile a good friend of mine has been dating a truly lovely person who has done so much for him, he really has I think found his partner so while I cant be happy with me I can be happy for others.

 

[ZA Dater]

19 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

You don't know how to do that on your own that's why you need a coach. You have a distorded idea of what women want in a man, and you have an equally distorded idea of what male confidence is. 

As a joke, does anyone really know this? I'd like to think honesty, loyalty, support, interest, caring and perhaps a few others are important but again what do I know. 

[FredEire]

It's interesting how OP refers to getting more confident and attractive as something like like getting new armour or a weapon upgrade in a video game, another sign he's not overly connected to the reality of it.

A good dating coach shouldn't teach you all that much PUA stuff as a lot of it's based on emotional manipulation and if they're an ethical professional they'll stay away from that.

They probably would work on how you see dating though and how to calmly and confidently approach a woman, all of which would be good for you.

Edited April 5 by FredEire

[basil67]

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Which is why it irks me when the insinuation is I seem to live in some sort of utopia or models and everything that is nice and yes I do get to live there some of the time with the extravagant parties the pretty people.

I think you're imagining this insinuation and I can't imagine that someone would someone think this is utopia.   Personally, I've never even considered that being invited to extravagant parties with pretty people would be something wonderful.  For me, having my unpretentious friends around a dinner table is much closer to utopia

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Well we can just agree to disagree, been to a few therapists and found no value whatsoever even when I did open up. Nothing about any of these experiences was positive and certainly not helpful either.

Just as you clearly find all of our advice unhelpful.  Aside from an innate need to talk about yourself, I can't figure out why you keep coming back.  

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

As a joke, does anyone really know [what women want in a man]? I'd like to think honesty, loyalty, support, interest, caring and perhaps a few others are important but again what do I know. 

Yes, those things are essential but they are the foundations.  She will also want compatible humour, compatible lifestyle, compatible sexuality, sufficient self confidence and for him to basically have his s*** together.   One cannot live in a home which is only foundations

I'm sure we've had this conversation before.  Does this stuff not stick in your head?

[Gaeta]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

As a joke, does anyone really know this? I'd like to think honesty, loyalty, support, interest, caring and perhaps a few others are important but again what do I know. 

You think women want overly confident/arrogant men, who can talk/charm the panties off of them. You think women are not interested in you because you don't look like Chris Hemsworth. You don't understand that there is no one-size-fits-all attraction in dating.

[Gebidozo]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

As a joke, does anyone really know this? I'd like to think honesty, loyalty, support, interest, caring and perhaps a few others are important but again what do I know. 

See, here is your incel philosophy rearing its ugly head again.

Your thought, translated from incel, is this: “I am honest, loyal, supportive, interested, caring, and perhaps a few other qualities! But those bad, stupid women don’t want this amazing me! They want evil, flirty, seductive jocks with sixpacks downing bottles of whiskey”.

See how it’s all about you? Self-pity, self-entitlement, pride disguised as false modesty? You actually believe that you are a great fellow. That’s what you’ve been fishing for since you started your self-flagellating epic. You want us to wipe off your tears, pat you on the head, and say, “Yes, you are great, the problem are those bad, stupid women!”.

But nobody is telling you that. Because everyone knows it’s a lie. Everyone (except you) understands that the problem is in your way of thinking, in your worldview. And that’s why you keep smearing this topic across 34 pages. You aren’t here to learn, you’re here to get confirmation for your false beliefs. But that ain’t gonna happen.

You have no humility at all. Your self-denigrating tirades aren’t humble, they reek of petty pride and wounded inflated ego. You have no love, respect, or understanding of women. That’s why you talk of “unattractive women” with such contempt. That’s why you’re full of banal envy of men who have more success with women than you. You’re just full of yourself, like a spoiled little kid from a nouveau riche family.

Forget about what women want. You must first understand that a man thinking like you do is what women do not want.