Perspective

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Sure and what is too much compromise? 

 

Thinking in terms of “too much” compromise is just the wrong way of looking at it. We compromise on things because what the person adds to our lives is completely worth it. 

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

OK if that is the case take one in shape guy and take one guy who is not in shape guy who has a better personality, which do you think most people would gravitate towards initially…

It truly couldn’t matter less.
 

First there’s no such thing as a “better” personality. Just compatibility. Second although many find people that are in shape to be aesthetically pleasing, that really doesn’t have much to do with attraction. A buddy of mine is overweight and has very little interest in eating healthy and exercises sporadically at best. He’s never been interested in women that are in great shape because they don’t match his core values. He can appreciate the way they look, like he’d appreciate a work of art or a sunset. But he’s never wanted that in a partner. And he’s been married for 15 years to a lovely, equally chubby and out of shape woman, with no regrets. Not settling. Snacking on junk food and watching Netflix is their jam. Cool. 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

You would be quite correct in that assessment, which I do not conform to [being macho].

You’d probably be shocked by how many women, even those in cultures with traditional gender norms, have absolutely no interest in a “macho” man. 
 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

…this a fundamental problem as I really do not want kids in my life and there is no way to overcome this.

While not wanting to date a single mother is fine (despite you previously having a crush on a single mother that you wanted to date), not wanting kids at all is really limiting your choices. I think if you wanted the traditional marriage and family, and tailored your OLD profiles and joined more relationship / marriage oriented apps and sites, you’d have much more interest. 

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Thinking in terms of “too much” compromise is just the wrong way of looking at it. We compromise on things because what the person adds to our lives is completely worth it. 

 

It truly couldn’t matter less.
 

First there’s no such thing as a “better” personality. Just compatibility. Second although many find people that are in shape to be aesthetically pleasing, that really doesn’t have much to do with attraction. A buddy of mine is overweight and has very little interest in eating healthy and exercises sporadically at best. He’s never been interested in women that are in great shape because they don’t match his core values. He can appreciate the way they look, like he’d appreciate a work of art or a sunset. But he’s never wanted that in a partner. And he’s been married for 15 years to a lovely, equally chubby and out of shape woman, with no regrets. Not settling. Snacking on junk food and watching Netflix is their jam. Cool. 

You’d probably be shocked by how many women, even those in cultures with traditional gender norms, have absolutely no interest in a “macho” man. 
 

While not wanting to date a single mother is fine (despite you previously having a crush on a single mother that you wanted to date), not wanting kids at all is really limiting your choices. I think if you wanted the traditional marriage and family, and tailored your OLD profiles and joined more relationship / marriage oriented apps and sites, you’d have much more interest. 

Agreed 1000% with the bold and that is the fundamental problem, there is too much compromise for too little add, that is one of the other fundamental problem I have with OLD in particular and before I get roasted "yes but you only look at slim people or ABC people" this add part is specifically related to core values, life interests, communication and dare I say it life outlook.

This entire post above is very practical and sensible and yes I am sure many do not have interest in traditional macho men. That particular single mother was a widow sadly and went through a truly tragic circumstance. That circumstance is very different to someone where the father is still in the picture, I am no interest in that scenario whatsoever because every single time I come across this on OLD the requirement is tacitly implied "my ex is no good, he has nothing to do with my child, he does not support me of his child and I am basically looking for a substitute father for my kids", this scenario is repeated over and over again and sorry for me there is zero ADD in that situation.

I get what you are saying but again that is then turning me towards the traditional stay at home mother scenario which has no appeal either, especially when I really find ambitious career driven people very interesting. I have considered both single mothers and this more traditional type arrangement and I simply cannot see the ADD for me at all. I would look at this if the person was very dynamic from a career point of view and absolutely wanted to have kids but I reckon this particular gift of life will be one of the many I will ultimately never experience. Might be hard for many to believe but I have been part of my best friends son's life since he was born 10 years ago and I am apparently very good with kids and undoubtedly they are very special, I respect people who want the family life with someone they are besotted with and love. 

Lets also be honest here, I struggle to find mutual attraction never mind someone who I'd want to have kids with, there is impossibility and the greater degree of impossible!

 

[FredEire]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

You would be quite correct in that assessment, which I do not conform to. Here the the thing they do not need to show contempt, fun, attractive and add some alcohol and some apparent flirting and well they are all set. OK lets say one does none of this, how do you get the same degree of success.

Lets also conceded that perhaps the sort of the person who likes that wont like a thoughtful, more intellectual guy, how do you bridge that gap, is it even possible to do so? Years of trying suggests this is very difficult to do.

I often ask myself and reflect on what does not work for me and what has sort of worked to varying degrees and from there I think what can be improved so its not like I am trying the same thing which does not work but there are also limits of what I am prepared to go and how much I am prepared to compromise and therein lies the fundamental problem, I'd happily compromise on certain things but as soon as that starts it ends up being a compromise on almost everything. Say I compromise on going out with single mothers, this a fundamental problem as I really do not want kids in my life and there is no way to overcome this. Say I compromise on someone who is unemployed, I then run the risk of doing all the paying which is fine but its not fine if the conversation is not interesting so its a compromise too far.

Would people compromise on me, well that is debatable because its never actually happened. Am I prepared to adapt for someone who does find me attractive, sure provided that attraction was neutral but I am not going to compromise for no purpose. 

One lesson I've learnt over the years is that when I was a young, quite desperate guy I did everything I did in terms of self-improvement purely to get women. I went to the gym to get bigger muscles so women would find me more physically attractive. I learned to sing and play guitar so I could try and woo women with my voice. When I did everything with this approach, nothing worked.

At some point I realised that I could go to the gym because it make me feel good and improved my mood, and the stronger I got the more confident I felt in how I carried myself. And I could play the guitar because I genuinely like music, and all things creative.

Now was I hoping some woman would like my appearance or my voice, and want to date me? Of course, that's quite natural. But it was very much a secondary thing, I realised my life and my happiness is my responsibility alone, and if a woman comes into that and adds to it is a bonus, not something I need to fill the void.

That's where you're going wrong on the self-improvement front. You need to shift the aim and the focus. Until you do that, nothing will work. As I've said before you could maybe do with a 6-month period or so where you just ditch dating completely, ditch the apps get off this forum and stop thinking about it completely as much as possible, focus only on yourself and becoming a better man.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I get what you are saying but again that is then turning me towards the traditional stay at home mother scenario which has no appeal either…

Why? Most families I know of have both parents working. Maybe this is fundamentally different in South Africa? 

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I would look at this if the person was very dynamic from a career point of view and absolutely wanted to have kids…

Why would they need to be “dynamic” from a career perspective? Why not just having a regular job that they’re happy with and being a great wife and mother? You really do put up so many really random roadblocks to your own happiness. 

[NuevoYorko]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Thinking in terms of “too much” compromise is just the wrong way of looking at it. We compromise on things because what the person adds to our lives is completely worth it. 

It really is impossible to explain the crucial nature and nuances of compromise and the constant  "give and take" that is required for any functioning relationship to a person who has not had a relationship or possibly even a friendship of depth and closeness.  

Definitely I agree with not trying to date people to whom one is not attracted at all.  

That said, I would make an exception in the case of the OP or another person similar, who does not have a concept of humans besides in a very superficial way.

OP only finds a certain physical type attractive at all.  He does not recognize or care about other qualities except I believe being socially effervescent is also important.  And no kids (though a certain level of hotness evidently merits an exception to that one).   

That is IT.   So he will likely never even know what it's like to really LIKE a person.

I've noticed in this thread, much to my dismay, that he is now down talking the woman he was seeing for a while - turns out he was not attracted to her after all and she was too fat.  

Anyway, I feel like if this individual, our OP, did not experiment with getting to know people on an non-superficial level,  he will have no possibility for a relationship.   

Almost everybody is looking for something deeper - including beautiful women.   Probably the exception is the PUA clowns that OP seems to admire.  They, like him, are just aiming for "hot."  

 

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Why? Most families I know of have both parents working. Maybe this is fundamentally different in South Africa? 

 

Why would they need to be “dynamic” from a career perspective? Why not just having a regular job that they’re happy with and being a great wife and mother? You really do put up so many really random roadblocks to your own happiness. 

Sorry but I have been out with far too many demotivated people happy to go through the motions, trapped in careers which make them miserable and again this creates a fundamental dynamic I simply do not want. About 75% of my life is work focused, most of the social life I have runs off that and even today it was about networking while having a morning smoothie with guy in a related industry. There is a conservative slant in SA for stay at home mothers and its a very difficult conservative mindset that I do not really fit into though I respect people who want that sort of life.

I'll try put it this way, I am very attracted to motivated people, there is a supreme confidence about them, I can even find that confidence sometimes but mostly when I meet them, its like something in me wakes up, I can just be me, I do not need to overthink, the conversation works and I always feel that they get me, the fact the conversations can last hours easily seems to suggest they do get me. I think in essence I want to build, I am not perfect, far from it but I am also not static either, dating might be a flop but I have other parts of life I am working on, challenges I take on. Challenges are things that keep me interested.

When I think about it, every single person I ever found attractive has this attribute in some way or other. The latest interest is a truly remarkable person, I probably messed it up well beyond any redemption assuming she even had a modicum of interest but its a lot easier for me to not give here and maybe keep trying than to go to OLD and the need to accept that I will be back on the relentless wheel of nothing.

I realise its unlikely anyone here is going to share my view on this.

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

It really is impossible to explain the crucial nature and nuances of compromise and the constant  "give and take" that is required for any functioning relationship to a person who has not had a relationship or possibly even a friendship of depth and closeness.  

Definitely I agree with not trying to date people to whom one is not attracted at all.  

That said, I would make an exception in the case of the OP or another person similar, who does not have a concept of humans besides in a very superficial way.

OP only finds a certain physical type attractive at all.  He does not recognize or care about other qualities except I believe being socially effervescent is also important.  And no kids (though a certain level of hotness evidently merits an exception to that one).   

That is IT.   So he will likely never even know what it's like to really LIKE a person.

I've noticed in this thread, much to my dismay, that he is now down talking the woman he was seeing for a while - turns out he was not attracted to her after all and she was too fat.  

Anyway, I feel like if this individual, our OP, did not experiment with getting to know people on an non-superficial level,  he will have no possibility for a relationship.   

Almost everybody is looking for something deeper - including beautiful women.   Probably the exception is the PUA clowns that OP seems to admire.  They, like him, are just aiming for "hot."  

 

Never said that. I did say I was not as attracted to her as she was to me. I am accused of only being superficial yet I have explained the non superficial attributes I find attractive.  

Amazingly we actually agree on something, well in part though I still refuse to date people  I do not find attractive. 

You might describe them as clowns, the simple fact of the matter is they do have dating success and they are dating people they find attractive so while even I find their method in many instances reprehensible clearly there are people quite happy to go along with those methods. Much like as you suggested people resort to escorts and fake relationships, I would not go along with either of those but if everything is happy in the dating world why would people even need to resort to fake relationships? 

For what its worth I know plenty of people on a non superficial level.

Its wonderful to spin the narrative of I am superficial and this and that but look around you, can you really say the world is not a fundamentally superficial place?

[Weezy1973]

24 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Its wonderful to spin the narrative of I am superficial and this and that but look around you, can you really say the world is not a fundamentally superficial place?

You have to get out of your bubble. No couple that’s being happily married for 50 years when asked about the key to their successful marriage looks to their partner and says “well just look at how hot they are!” 

[BaileyB]

57 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

It really is impossible to explain the crucial nature and nuances of compromise and the constant  "give and take" that is required for any functioning relationship to a person who has not had a relationship or possibly even a friendship of depth and closeness.  

Thirty six pages into this most recent thread and your point is well proven. 

[basil67]

58 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

About 75% of my life is work focused, most of the social life I have runs off that and even today it was about networking while having a morning smoothie with guy in a related industry.

Wait.....you were recently feeling disappointed because a woman who you were attracted to was with you for the networking and not for romance.   But apparently networking is OK if the person is male?    

[basil67]

15 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok, then kindly explain of none of those things are seemingly important why men who have those personality traits and physical attraction have far greater success? 

Sorry I really cannot buy into this, I have seen this countless times in social settings so clearly there is a great demand for guys who have those.

Far greater success than who?  The world is full of good guys who are fun, interesting, confident (but without charm and arrogance) who have no trouble finding a partner.   The a-holes you choose to socialise with are not representative of the average man who is successful in love and life.  

 

[NuevoYorko]

46 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Far greater success than who?  

And, at what?   Getting dates with hot women, I suppose, is the answer.  Remember that the OP reliably falls back on PUA messaging to support all of his positions.

He also seems unable to grasp that, in fact, physically attractive people really DO have a lot of advantages over less fabulous looking people - especially when it comes to ATTRACTING OTHER PEOPLE.  It's laughably ironic that he can whine about this for pages and years on end and never really recognize that he is practicing the exact same thing with his refusal to get to know any woman who does not literally resemble a model. 

[basil67]

16 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

And, at what?   Getting dates with hot women, I suppose, is the answer.  Remember that the OP reliably falls back on PUA messaging to support all of his positions.

He also seems unable to grasp that, in fact, physically attractive people really DO have a lot of advantages over less fabulous looking people - especially when it comes to ATTRACTING OTHER PEOPLE.  It's laughably ironic that he can whine about this for pages and years on end and never really recognize that he is practicing the exact same thing with his refusal to get to know any woman who does not literally resemble a model. 

This has been going on for 7000 odd posts and OP still can't see his own hypocrisy.  We're talking about a guy who has a habit of not even acknowledging the existence of women he's not attracted to (Nobody is interested in me!)

[NuevoYorko]

By the way, OP:  It's fine that you're not interested in women who do not resemble models, and even that such women are virtually invisible to you.  You're not hurting anyone but yourself.  

What's  troubling is that you feel entitled to attention and to wallow in self pity because you can't obtain one of these trophies for yourself.  

That's nothing short of insufferable.   Hot women, fat women,  interesting people of any gender are not going to have any time for this, ever.  But,  I'm sure you still have several thousand more posts detailing your grievances left in you.  So, carry on.

Or maybe consider saving up for a Fully Functional Female Robot.  They are more perfect than any human woman, and probably low maintenance on the reciprocity scale.

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

And, at what?   Getting dates with hot women, I suppose, is the answer.  Remember that the OP reliably falls back on PUA messaging to support all of his positions.

He also seems unable to grasp that, in fact, physically attractive people really DO have a lot of advantages over less fabulous looking people - especially when it comes to ATTRACTING OTHER PEOPLE.  It's laughably ironic that he can whine about this for pages and years on end and never really recognize that he is practicing the exact same thing with his refusal to get to know any woman who does not literally resemble a model. 

Thank you, finally someone who acknowledges that actually superficially attractive people do have an advantage in dating. That's been my point all along but over and over again I am told superficial looks do not matter and well you can overcome with other things.

If people won't get to know me then why should I get to know people who I am not attracted to? 

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, basil67 said:

Far greater success than who?  The world is full of good guys who are fun, interesting, confident (but without charm and arrogance) who have no trouble finding a partner.   The a-holes you choose to socialise with are not representative of the average man who is successful in love and life.  

 

Greater success because they have greater choice.

[basil67]

26 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Greater success because they have greater choice.

Dating is not like a cattle auction with a line of beasts there to be selected from

[basil67]

43 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Thank you, finally someone who acknowledges that actually superficially attractive people do have an advantage in dating. That's been my point all along but over and over again I am told superficial looks do not matter and well you can overcome with other things.

Nobody has ever said that this isn't a thing.  It's exactly the premise of leagues or punching above your weight.  

Quote

If people won't get to know me then why should I get to know people who I am not attracted to? 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. 

We offer you the different approach to hopefully broaden your horizons.  This is so that you may find someone you love and not be desperately sad, lonely, ignored.  But you don't have to do it if you don't want to.  By all means, keep doing what you're doing and stay sad, single and lonely.  Your life, and your choice.  But for the love of god, stop complaining about the consequences of your choices.

I would also argue that you're getting hit over the head with the Karma stick.   You're being seen like a non-entity in exactly the same way you see others who have less to offer as as non-entities.  But, again if you're fine being seen as a non-entity, carry on as you are

 

Edited April 7 by basil67

[basil67]

14 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Dating is not like a cattle auction with a line of beasts there to be selected from

More on the idea of "having more choice"

Going right back to being a teenager and in my early 20's, I had a number of short and long term relationships, yet I've never "chosen" someone.   Instead, I've gone about living my life and doing my stuff and then one day I meet a guy who I like and it turns out that he likes me and we keep seeing each other.   I've also been interested in guys who aren't interested in me.  And guys have been interested in me but I wasn't interested in them.

Choice really has little to do with it

[NuevoYorko]

It sounds like the way I picture things to go down in a brothel.  Man walks in, all the ladies are there, lined up, hoping that the customer will pick them. 

Hey!  Wait a minute!  OP really should GO to a brothel!  Exactly what he's looking for -  a lot of choice,  and nothing at all required of him.  As long as he can pay for it.  

[Weezy1973]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Greater success because they have greater choice.

They get more dates, and have more sex, but they aren’t more successful when it comes to meaningful relationships and marriage. So it really depends on what “success” is. For most people, the whole point of dating is to get into a meaningful relationship. 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

They get more dates, and have more sex, but they aren’t more successful when it comes to meaningful relationships and marriage. So it really depends on what “success” is. For most people, the whole point of dating is to get into a meaningful relationship. 

For me success would be dating someone and there being mutual attraction.

[FredEire]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

They get more dates, and have more sex, but they aren’t more successful when it comes to meaningful relationships and marriage. So it really depends on what “success” is. For most people, the whole point of dating is to get into a meaningful relationship. 

Yes, OP is strongly against casual dating (which is fine), but he sees other people doing this and judges it as success.

You see the rich guy with the beautiful woman on his arm, but many times this will be his date for the night, his mistress or even an escort.

Stop giving af about what other people consider success because it's not what you want. Right now it seems you have no clear path to this as it's wrapped up in contradictions and delusions.

You say mutual attraction is enough but you're not attracted to anyone who is attracted to you. It seems likely this lack of attraction on her end is part of the package of what you find attractive, as it's very safe and helps you avoid the possibility of a real relationship.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

For me success would be dating someone and there being mutual attraction.

If that’s your only definition of success, it speaks to your limited understanding of what it takes to build an actual relationship. It’s very short sighted - you seek a woman who makes you feel good about yourself — that is your primary focus when choosing a partner. 

There are obviously so many more things to consider when choosing a life partner - if your goal is to have a serious relationship and not simply to find someone to date for a while who will make you feel good and stroke your ego. 

I could date someone and there could be mutual attraction - but we could have a completely different set of values and goals in life. I could want to marry and have children and he could want to travel the world as a digital nomad. That’s won’t work long term.

There could be mutual attraction but maybe my idea of a good time is staying home to cook a nice dinner and going for a long walk in the park while his idea of a good time is going out with the boys or with couple friends every weekend. That won’t work. 

There could be mutual attraction but I have a stable job and he bounces around looking for the next big thing with periods of unemployment. That won’t work. 

There could be mutual attraction but he could have mental health issues that make a relationship impossible. That won’t work.

It comes back to the statement above, that you really can’t explain what it is to have a successful long term relationship to someone who has no prior experience in a long term relationship. Of course, you are looking at what you think you want in the short term. That is likely to bring short term happiness (if you ever actually find that which you seek), but not long term fulfillment. 

Edited April 7 by BaileyB

[NuevoYorko]

3 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

It comes back to the statement above, that you really can’t explain what it is to have a successful long term relationship to someone who has no prior experience.  

Sadly, and exhaustingly, this will bring OP back in his endless circling to his erroneous conviction that the women are not interested in him because he has "no experience."  In fact, they don't know or care about that, of course.  

His lack of experience is his own problem - he has no idea what "relationship" really entails. 

Sure, it would be frustrating and feel terrible to not have the experience of a mutual spark with someone.   That said, this place is swarming with people who are here because they need help with their failing / failed attempts at relationships with people that they / we had mutual attraction with.    '

OP refuses to believe, or to learn, that the initial attraction is only the first step.

If he were objectively very good looking and had all the accoutrements that he believes are trappings for "success" he would still not succeed with a woman of any quality who also looked like a model, because such a woman would not be satisfied with being seen as an object to be acquired.