Perspective

[BaileyB]

11 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

That said, this place is swarming with people who are here because they need help with their failing / failed attempts at relationships with people that they / we had mutual attraction with.    '

It is only the first step - and it’s usually the easiest step. 

Sure, it can be difficult for many to find that “right” person, but it’s not usually because of a lack of attraction. I can walk down the street and find five men that I’m attracted to - but are we compatible in the ways that really matter if my goal is to have a relationship with that person? That’s the challenge.

And when I do find “my person,” that’s when the real work begins… the patience, compromise, communication, and commitment of being in a long term relationship. That’s the hard part. 

Edited April 7 by BaileyB

[FredEire]

11 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

If that’s your only definition of success, it speaks to your limited understanding of what it takes to build an actual relationship. It’s very short sighted - again, you seek a woman who makes you feel good in the relationship — that is your primary focus when choosing a partner. 

There are obviously so many more things to consider when choosing a life partner - if your goal is to have a serious relationship and not simply to find someone to date for a while who will make you feel good and stroke your ego. 

I could date someone and there could be mutual attraction - but we could have a completely different set of values and goals in life. I could want to marry and have children and he could want to travel the world as a digital nomad. That’s won’t work long term.

There could be mutual attraction but maybe my idea of a good time is staying home to cook a nice dinner and going for a long walk in the park while his idea of a good time is going out with the boys or with couple friends every weekend. That won’t work. 

There could be mutual attraction but I have a stable job and he bounces around looking for the next big thing with periods of unemployment. That won’t work. 

There could be mutual attraction but he could have mental health issues that make a relationship impossible. That won’t work.

It comes back to the statement above, that you really can’t explain what it is to have a successful long term relationship to someone who has no prior experience in a long term relationship. Of course, you are looking at what you think you want in the short term. That is likely to bring short term happiness (if you ever actually find that which you seek), but not long term fulfillment. 

Indeed, if relationships weren't massively complicated, difficult and heartbreaking there wouldn't be places like the LS forum.

OP has boiled it down to a very simply maths equation because that makes sense in his head, but it doesn't make sense in reality.

I'm of the opinion that a degree of casual dating before settling down is helpful as it teaches you about how people tick, the issues in relationships and what you aren't/are looking for in a relationship. As previously mentioned OP isn't into this (which is fine), but basing all his relationship outlook on a fantasy in his head rather than real experience doesn't help.

Even if he were to meet this fantasy woman, he may feel this is it I've found my ideal match and I'm clinging on to it no matter what. She may feel differently and be testing the waters initially (as most people would), which is an immediate compatibility issue.

Because he's never got off the start line he doesn't have to face the difficult reality that getting to a healthy relationship is a long road and a process, not an easy jump from A to B.

He may think mutual attraction is all he wants but then if it happened and the woman left him heartbroken it would paint an entirely different picture.

[Foxhall]

I think I said earlier that you still have plenty of time but there is a warning there also- your almost 40,

 youre also not getting any younger,

you dont want to be in the same boat when your 50, (well or maybe eventually just choosing to be completely free and single is an option too)

you will eventually have to compromise to an extent,

its unlikely your going to land a film star type beauty- at the end of the day they are being snapped up by Fav De Klerk and the likes ( Hes not even that tall so I guess there are ways around everything)

you dont have to settle for an out of shape fat girl who binges on netflix, you know you could find a perfectly respectable girl who looks after herself keeping in shape without needing her to be a show off or seeking the limelight.

most likely you might pick up an attractive divorcee who has been stung along the way (that sounds better than a single mother) and is happy to settle herself now for a more quiet intelligent sensitive guy,

thats what you have to aim for- connecting with a reasonably good looking girl through your intelligence and sensitivity- your not built like a rugby player and you dont have an extroverted personality so you need to play to your strengths.

you need to go searching for book club meet up groups/hiking group etc (please dont tell me to go on a hike- I know)-but thats where you will meet women who will be more suitable personality wise and chances are some of them will be pretty enough too.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, FredEire said:

You say mutual attraction is enough but you're not attracted to anyone who is attracted to you. It seems likely this lack of attraction on her end is part of the package of what you find attractive, as it's very safe and helps you avoid the possibility of a real relationship.

Ah so back to the "well you know you might not be attractive but she might become so after 20 dates" , sorry I do not subscribe to this, why would I purposely avoid mutual attraction? 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

Sadly, and exhaustingly, this will bring OP back in his endless circling to his erroneous conviction that the women are not interested in him because he has "no experience."  In fact, they don't know or care about that, of course.  

His lack of experience is his own problem - he has no idea what "relationship" really entails. 

Sure, it would be frustrating and feel terrible to not have the experience of a mutual spark with someone.   That said, this place is swarming with people who are here because they need help with their failing / failed attempts at relationships with people that they / we had mutual attraction with.    '

OP refuses to believe, or to learn, that the initial attraction is only the first step.

If he were objectively very good looking and had all the accoutrements that he believes are trappings for "success" he would still not succeed with a woman of any quality who also looked like a model, because such a woman would not be satisfied with being seen as an object to be acquired.  

That is exactly what I am saying, I cannot be bothered to date people if there is no initial attraction, its a complete waste of time for both people. Well someone else in this thread made it very clear that experienced does matter so once again it would seem this is purely subjective as much of dating seemingly.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

Indeed, if relationships weren't massively complicated, difficult and heartbreaking there wouldn't be places like the LS forum.

OP has boiled it down to a very simply maths equation because that makes sense in his head, but it doesn't make sense in reality.

I'm of the opinion that a degree of casual dating before settling down is helpful as it teaches you about how people tick, the issues in relationships and what you aren't/are looking for in a relationship. As previously mentioned OP isn't into this (which is fine), but basing all his relationship outlook on a fantasy in his head rather than real experience doesn't help.

Even if he were to meet this fantasy woman, he may feel this is it I've found my ideal match and I'm clinging on to it no matter what. She may feel differently and be testing the waters initially (as most people would), which is an immediate compatibility issue.

Because he's never got off the start line he doesn't have to face the difficult reality that getting to a healthy relationship is a long road and a process, not an easy jump from A to B.

He may think mutual attraction is all he wants but then if it happened and the woman left him heartbroken it would paint an entirely different picture.

I can live with this, I just want to experience it once, perhaps that is a very modest expectation. The reality its not like I have years and years to experiment because frankly by 40 most people actually have some relationship experience so casual dating will be even more challenging, I am not against that but the same things which I find attractive would apply so that makes it even more challenging.

 

[ZA Dater]

49 minutes ago, Foxhall said:

I think I said earlier that you still have plenty of time but there is a warning there also- your almost 40,

 youre also not getting any younger,

you dont want to be in the same boat when your 50, (well or maybe eventually just choosing to be completely free and single is an option too)

you will eventually have to compromise to an extent,

its unlikely your going to land a film star type beauty- at the end of the day they are being snapped up by Fav De Klerk and the likes ( Hes not even that tall so I guess there are ways around everything)

you dont have to settle for an out of shape fat girl who binges on netflix, you know you could find a perfectly respectable girl who looks after herself keeping in shape without needing her to be a show off or seeking the limelight.

most likely you might pick up an attractive divorcee who has been stung along the way (that sounds better than a single mother) and is happy to settle herself now for a more quiet intelligent sensitive guy,

thats what you have to aim for- connecting with a reasonably good looking girl through your intelligence and sensitivity- your not built like a rugby player and you dont have an extroverted personality so you need to play to your strengths.

you need to go searching for book club meet up groups/hiking group etc (please dont tell me to go on a hike- I know)-but thats where you will meet women who will be more suitable personality wise and chances are some of them will be pretty enough too.

You know what I can live with never getting anywhere with this because frankly I suspect me ever finding mutual attraction is unlikely at best, I am useless now at nearly 40 as I was at 30, my prospects are actually worse than they were and that is really saying something. I am not prepared to compromise on the core thing I find attractive and I am most definitely not going to compromise on kids. Physically all I want is someone relatively fit, which I never find on OLD. The greatest way people can be defined is by their personality and their action.

For years I have been trying to work with what I have and consistently got me nowhere because what I have is apparently of low value. I have given myself a very short term deadline to make a decision about what I am going to do and that will be only after I have chatted with a sister like figure I have in my life, one of the few people I can open up with and one of the even fewer who actually cares.

I'll dump the entire dating idea in the bin if I have to and just carry on with these "friendships" which get me an attractive, intelligent, engaging nice person to spend time with sporadically, sure its not dating but its better than severely compromising and being unhappy anyway.

[FredEire]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Ah so back to the "well you know you might not be attractive but she might become so after 20 dates" , sorry I do not subscribe to this, why would I purposely avoid mutual attraction? 

Lol that's not even remotely what I said.

Because it's safer, you don't have to deal with the challenges of relationships etc, we've been through this before.

It's something subconscious, but you don't seem to believe in the subconscious or psychology even though it's widely accepted to exist, so I guess it's pointless pointing this out.

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I can live with this, I just want to experience it once, perhaps that is a very modest expectation. The reality its not like I have years and years to experiment because frankly by 40 most people actually have some relationship experience so casual dating will be even more challenging, I am not against that but the same things which I find attractive would apply so that makes it even more challenging.

 

Again, no. You don't know because you haven't felt it.

You really think if you met a girl you liked, she liked you, you dated for six months and she dumped you for another guy you wouldn't be ruined emotionally?

Again just focussing on finding some hot chick that's into you is something you're so hyperfocused on you can't see the bigger picture and that the initial stages of dating actually aren't that big a deal, which just makes it harder for you.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, FredEire said:

Again, no. You don't know because you haven't felt it.

You really think if you met a girl you liked, she liked you, you dated for six months and she dumped you for another guy you wouldn't be ruined emotionally?

Again just focussing on finding some hot chick that's into you is something you're so hyperfocused on you can't see the bigger picture and that the initial stages of dating actually aren't that big a deal, which just makes it harder for you.

I think you underestimate the degree that I can not give a .... at least if I had 6 good months I not need to wonder what it would be like. Added to which I'd be happy to work at it, so if it did fall apart I can at least say I did what I could and it did not work. 

No, its not big deal that I cant find mutual attraction, its just a minor problem but no need to worry its no big deal. 

Sure there is a bigger picture but it does not change the fact, no attraction=no date.

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Lol that's not even remotely what I said.

Because it's safer, you don't have to deal with the challenges of relationships etc, we've been through this before.

It's something subconscious, but you don't seem to believe in the subconscious or psychology even though it's widely accepted to exist, so I guess it's pointless pointing this out.

Believe me its not, for years I bent over backwards going on dates with people I had zero interest in in the hope one would suddenly become attractive and interesting and while I did this I had a front row seat as other people around me found people they were attracted to, did find interesting, some relationships worked, others did not but the reality is they had mutual attraction while I was forcing myself to go on dates in some stupid belief that "its a numbers game", well I suppose if you have not one universally attractive trait, you'll have about as much luck as some dude trying to sell a cheap car at The Dorchester. 

My problem is I have spent too much time around people unobtainable by me but not others so unfortunately what is attainable has zero attraction whatsoever and that cannot be undone. All I am trying to do is what I try to do each day and that is to do the seemingly impossible.  So yea when a super intelligent, dynamic, great communicator, great conversationalist, warm personality, athletic person sits in front of me and engages in a great way, its then pretty difficult go on a date with someone from OLD who does none of those things but especially does not communicate well and lacks general knowledge.  Are you honestly telling me I should force myself to try find the latter attractive because the former would not be interested in me?

I will get roasted for the above paragraph but so be it.

[FredEire]

36 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I think you underestimate the degree that I can not give a .... at least if I had 6 good months I not need to wonder what it would be like. Added to which I'd be happy to work at it, so if it did fall apart I can at least say I did what I could and it did not work. 

No, its not big deal that I cant find mutual attraction, its just a minor problem but no need to worry its no big deal. 

Sure there is a bigger picture but it does not change the fact, no attraction=no date.

Not really, before having a relationship I thought a dream girl would solve all my problems also.

I met a girl with high mutual attraction, we got together, there were lots of issues, jealousies and lies popping up immediately, I spent much of our 10 months together doubting out relationship, it wasn't easy and at times not very nice.

The fairytale romance is a load of bunk invented by Hollywood. Even in the best case scenario you will sometimes feel like screaming at your girlfriend in rage, it's part of the package. If it's worth it you have to work through the issues that pip up and take the bad with the good.

I'd bet a substantial amount of money that if the above mentioned happened you would not just shrug your shoulders and say oh well mission accomplished. It would eat you up inside, which is what it should do to most people with a functioning brain. It's part of the joy/heartbreak that comes with a romantic relationship, it's a gamble in which you put your heart in the middle.

In addition you wouldn't be entirely happy in the relationship, because you are not happy now. It wouldn't change who you are.

But again, you haven't had it so acting like you know exactly what would happen talking to people who have is pretty bizarre

[FredEire]

25 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Believe me its not, for years I bent over backwards going on dates with people I had zero interest in in the hope one would suddenly become attractive and interesting and while I did this I had a front row seat as other people around me found people they were attracted to, did find interesting, some relationships worked, others did not but the reality is they had mutual attraction while I was forcing myself to go on dates in some stupid belief that "its a numbers game", well I suppose if you have not one universally attractive trait, you'll have about as much luck as some dude trying to sell a cheap car at The Dorchester. 

My problem is I have spent too much time around people unobtainable by me but not others so unfortunately what is attainable has zero attraction whatsoever and that cannot be undone. All I am trying to do is what I try to do each day and that is to do the seemingly impossible.  So yea when a super intelligent, dynamic, great communicator, great conversationalist, warm personality, athletic person sits in front of me and engages in a great way, its then pretty difficult go on a date with someone from OLD who does none of those things but especially does not communicate well and lacks general knowledge.  Are you honestly telling me I should force myself to try find the latter attractive because the former would not be interested in me?

I will get roasted for the above paragraph but so be it.

No, I'm saying as a defence mechanism you are either finding women you don't like, who like you, or women who have no interest in you who you like. You're not meeting the ones you like who also like you because it's not something you're emotionally open to.

Believe me I've been there and to some extent still am. It's a wild world out there, there are going to be women who take your fancy and if you improve yourself some of them may take a fancy to you. But with your rigid views and crippling low self esteem it's not going to happen at the moment.

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, FredEire said:

No, I'm saying as a defence mechanism you are either finding women you don't like, who like you, or women who have no interest in you who you like. You're not meeting the ones you like who also like you because it's not something you're emotionally open to.

Believe me I've been there and to some extent still am. It's a wild world out there, there are going to be women who take your fancy and if you improve yourself some of them may take a fancy to you. But with your rigid views and crippling low self esteem it's not going to happen at the moment.

I am open to meeting people but realistically that never happens  because of the people I meet in life none are actually single to begin with. By late 30's most people are actually paired up so that becomes even more difficult. Or they are single mothers.

My view will not be changing because there is no reason for them to change and every single time, like yesterday for example, there I go and sit at a trendy cafe for breakfast, nice ocean view and I look around me and guess how many ladies I see on their own, almost none, those who are were soon get joined by a partner so there is no scope there, much the same applies where I go for lunch. Heck I was walking the one day and there was some promotion for a singles club, I noted these ladies were approaching guys asking them if they wanted to join, I sat down admiring the ocean with one eye and watching the rather fascinating social experiment, it was all the same type of guys they were approaching so I decided to walk past and see if I was approached, of course not.

When views are confirmed over and over again they become set, that is the unfortunate reality and it does not take much to see how this plays out in the world around us each day.

I've given myself a few weeks to decide what I am going to do. 

[ZA Dater]

20 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Not really, before having a relationship I thought a dream girl would solve all my problems also.

I met a girl with high mutual attraction, we got together, there were lots of issues, jealousies and lies popping up immediately, I spent much of our 10 months together doubting out relationship, it wasn't easy and at times not very nice.

The fairytale romance is a load of bunk invented by Hollywood. Even in the best case scenario you will sometimes feel like screaming at your girlfriend in rage, it's part of the package. If it's worth it you have to work through the issues that pip up and take the bad with the good.

I'd bet a substantial amount of money that if the above mentioned happened you would not just shrug your shoulders and say oh well mission accomplished. It would eat you up inside, which is what it should do to most people with a functioning brain. It's part of the joy/heartbreak that comes with a romantic relationship, it's a gamble in which you put your heart in the middle.

In addition you wouldn't be entirely happy in the relationship, because you are not happy now. It wouldn't change who you are.

But again, you haven't had it so acting like you know exactly what would happen talking to people who have is pretty bizarre

I have had a relationship and it made my life dramatically better in almost every single way or maybe I was just lucky. Was it easy, sure it was not but I rarely back away from the difficult challenges. If I could date someone for 6 months who I really connected with intellectually, had share interests with, could build things with and share life with, I'd be quite happy for only 6 months because at least I could then be loved even if only briefly, feel attracted if only briefly.

People get upset when they allow emotions to override all else, I make sure I generally keep my emotions in check.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I suspect me ever finding mutual attraction is unlikely at best…

There are ways you can date someone where there’s mutual attraction - but mutual attraction as we’ve said is fairly meaningless overall so most of the time there will be one date and that’s it. But here’s the advice:

1. Don’t swipe on every person on Tinder or Bumble. Only swipe on women that meet your minimum level of attraction. 
 

2. Be patient. If you only get 1 match for every 1000 swipes so be it. It might take months for that match to happen but just be patient and don’t take it personally.

 

3. If in your day to day life you do come across a woman you’re attracted to, ask for her phone number and/or out on a date early on. Make your romantic interest obvious. 

4. Don’t wait for “perfect”. If she meets your minimum attractiveness requirements and the conversation is good, that’s a prospect.

 

If you do those things, you’ll eventually get a date with someone you’re attracted to. And hopefully you’ll learn how meaningless it really is in the big picture. 

[NuevoYorko]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

 

You really think if you met a girl you liked, she liked you, you dated for six months and she dumped you for another guy you wouldn't be ruined emotionally?

 

Or, how about she just dumped you because she realized that you only saw her as a one dimensional type of projection and did not understand her as a full person?  

Not very many people are going to hang around for that.  Mutual attraction is just like taking one step into the shallow end of a pool.  

[NuevoYorko]

4 hours ago, Foxhall said:

 

its unlikely your going to land a film star type beauty- at the end of the day they are being snapped up by Fav De Klerk and the likes 

I had no idea who Fad De Klerk is, so I googled - he's married and his wife looks almost exactly like him.  

That's also a thing - many people are attracted to other people who look similar to themselves.  

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

There are ways you can date someone where there’s mutual attraction - but mutual attraction as we’ve said is fairly meaningless overall so most of the time there will be one date and that’s it. But here’s the advice:

1. Don’t swipe on every person on Tinder or Bumble. Only swipe on women that meet your minimum level of attraction. 
 

2. Be patient. If you only get 1 match for every 1000 swipes so be it. It might take months for that match to happen but just be patient and don’t take it personally.

 

3. If in your day to day life you do come across a woman you’re attracted to, ask for her phone number and/or out on a date early on. Make your romantic interest obvious. 

4. Don’t wait for “perfect”. If she meets your minimum attractiveness requirements and the conversation is good, that’s a prospect.

 

If you do those things, you’ll eventually get a date with someone you’re attracted to. And hopefully you’ll learn how meaningless it really is in the big picture. 

Yes and also you can have a 10/10 date, be all over them, they're all over you and then boom ghosted or receive a text saying they don't want to see you again.

And it's for all sorts of reasons, cold feet, not over ex, suddenly receiving a job offer etc, the list goes on. And it's a horrible feeling when you start to, as much as you know it's silly, imagine the white picket fence with someone and they're suddenly gone.

But that's what happens in dating, and it happens all the time. You have to be open to and accept/expect these experiences will happen before you meet someone who's mutually attracted and in it for the long haul.

That's what worries me a bit about you, you don't deal particularly well with rejection from people who have no interest in you, so how would you deal with rejection from someone who was interested and then isn't, or dumps you, or divorces you after a 10 year marriage. You might think it's all roses if you just experience a mutual attraction but it won't be, you will want more. And inevitably some of these situations won't work out.

[basil67]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I can live with this, I just want to experience it once, perhaps that is a very modest expectation.

Wanting a woman, even briefly, who is "super intelligent, dynamic, great communicator, great conversationalist, warm personality, athletic" is not a modest expectation.   A modest expectation would be a woman who is kind, thoughtful and who loves you.

You keep talking about wanting someone who's athletic.  How do you gauge athleticism from a distance?   For instance, in my dating years I was tall and slim and people would assume I was athletic. I am not athletic at all 🤣    Yet one of the female PTs at my gym is short, blockish and super athletic.  How can you figure out if a woman is athletic if you don't yet know her lifestyle?

[BaileyB]

Further to basil’s comment, how athletic are you ZA? What team sports do you play? Are you a runner? Triathlete? Do you lift weights?

[NuevoYorko]

3 hours ago, FredEire said:

The fairytale romance is a load of bunk invented by Hollywood.

Yeah the OP is kind of like the male version of the girls who grow up expecting a handsome prince to show up,  sweep them off their feet, provide for them and take care of all their needs and desires for the rest of their lives ... when they themselves have not done, or offered much of anything.  

 

 

[FredEire]

31 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

Yeah the OP is kind of like the male version of the girls who grow up expecting a handsome prince to show up,  sweep them off their feet, provide for them and take care of all their needs and desires for the rest of their lives ... when they themselves have not done, or offered much of anything.  

 

 

Yes and it usually leads to resentment when they realise that men are not going to be perfect or only there to do a little dance for them and entertain them and shower them with gifts, and anger and disappointment when they do not conform to this expectation.

Princess behaviour in other words. There is a little bit of this attitude from OP.

[basil67]

@ZA Dater you started this thread over two months ago.  Have you seen this woman since then?   If so, do the two of you discuss your personal lives and personal thoughts, or is it just business and impersonal topics such as politics and sports?

Is she single?

 

 

Edited April 7 by basil67

[NuevoYorko]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

Princess behaviour in other words. There is a little bit of this attitude from OP.

I would call it more than a little bit.  The entitlement is strong in this fellow.