Perspective

[ZA Dater]

39 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Definitely good communication could be deemed an attractive quality. So why not take your cue from this person and focus on better communication and interpersonal skills? 

This is a good question and I do not think I lack communication skills but seldom meet people who themselves are good communicators so what I end up doing is simplifying my communication methods, focus on more watered down topics, try keep things uncomplicated and sort of go through the motions on a level where a conversation can happen but seldom do these conversation really engage me and it becomes difficult to drag communication of the other person.

Good example of this was someone who I matched with, she did not really interest me from an attraction level but the conversation was frankly hard work because there was nothing to talk about, getting her to communicate with next to impossible. Yes, she wanted to hook up but I was not interested at all just because of her communication style.

Two of the most attractive qualities a person can have for me are confidence and good communication.

[Wiseman2]

If two of the most attractive qualities a person can have for you are confidence and good communication, perhaps you could take classes or courses and join groups and clubs that improve these skills.  I've heard of Toastmasters and other types of confidence and communication skills programs. Might be worth your time to invest in. 

Edited March 11 by Wiseman2

[Alpacalia]

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Me, I am probably guilty of not opening up much and showing very little vulnerability 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Two of the most attractive qualities a person can have for me are confidence and good communication.

Well, you have to possess those two qualities too. Do you think you do posses them in amounts enough to not be lacking by yourself? Sure, you can have the same expectations from your partner, and you should. However, it is your own responsibility to be the person you are searching for. If you lack confidence and are guilty of not opening up, then it is your issue and your issue only.

It's worth mentioning that a person can be a really good communicator and/or conversationalist and still not be with an "ideal" partner. I.E. Finding someone who flows well with you. Your communication pattern TOGETHER will predict how successful a relationship will be. Someone who communicates perfectly can still end up in a miserable relationship  b/c their communication styles are not compatible. So communication skill IN TERMS OF A RELATIONSHIP is more than just being good at talking to someone about anything. It's more than just being a good public speaker. It's about being a good partner. And that sometimes has to do with how well you are able to get a message across to someone else and how well you can also interpret the other persons message for a clearer understanding.

Relationships are so much richer than just the words you exchange. My cousin, a native English speaker, and his wife of 12 years that spoke no English, are living proof.

[NuevoYorko]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Maybe good communication could be deemed an attractive quality.

??? Interesting perspective.  I would venture to say that for the majority of people, good communication IS an attractive quality.  No "maybe" or "could" about it.

Becoming a good communicator yourself could change some things up for you.  Think about it.

 

[basil67]

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I suppose this exchange made me re look at what I share when I have been on dates. How much do you "open up" on your life and what degree of vulnerability do you show on an initial date?

Me, I am probably guilty of not opening up much and showing very little vulnerability I do remember when I met this particular person I did feel comfortable enough to share.

It's been a long time since I dated, but I've always been an open book.  And when I was dating, I was only attracted to men who were open in return.  Does being open make myself vulnerable to rejection in the case there's things about me which they don't like?  Sure.  But they are going to discover those things about me sooner or later anyway, so I may as well just be myself

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

This is a good question and I do not think I lack communication skills but seldom meet people who themselves are good communicators so what I end up doing is simplifying my communication methods, focus on more watered down topics, try keep things uncomplicated and sort of go through the motions on a level where a conversation can happen but seldom do these conversation really engage me and it becomes difficult to drag communication of the other person.

From what you've written in the past you are interested in talkimg on such things as politics and world affairs. That you are knowledgeable in certain areas does not make you a good communicator.  Good communication skills are about being able to connect over many different kinds of topics with many different types of people.  And for many, good conversation is about personal connection - it's not about world events.  Sure, we can have a chat about the situation in X country, but people will also appreciate connection over their daily lives.  How's your sick mum?  How's your house reno going?  How's that thing with your child going?  Oh, tell me more about that restaurant, I've heard good things!  Where do you find the motivation to do (boring thing)? 

And frankly, the bolded sounds just plain pretentious.  

Edited March 11 by basil67

[Wiseman2]

 By focusing on more "watered down" topics, are you implying others won't comprehend your lofty notions?  Unfortunately that seems rather condescending. 

[Lotsgoingon]

You're right: there really isn't a difference between a great conversation with someone and a date.

Question: were you enjoying her conversation and the way she was opening up and asking you questions? The dating rule I try to follow is this: the more you are enjoying the conversation the more you want to tell her that! And ask to extend the conversation.  A friend of mine (younger guy) is a master at this kind of situation. He'd say something like, "wish we had more time to talk" or "I'm enjoying the conversation. Would you like to do it again, this time scheduled."

What you experienced is the way things were in the world before dating apps. We would meet people at parties or gatherings or an activity and have fantastic conversations--sometimes just a single great conversation or good enough conversation--and then based on that conversation, people would go out on a date. The date was scheduled because there was energy before the date. 

It's funny: looking back, I went on a ton of dates with women who had I had some great conversation. We'd get together and it was like, we would explore whether there was really more there for us. Often there wasn't, and we became friends. As long as both of us were not interested, we could be friends. 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

If two of the most attractive qualities a person can have for you are confidence and good communication, perhaps you could take classes or courses and join groups and clubs that improve these skills.  I've heard of Toastmasters and other types of confidence and communication skills programs. Might be worth your time to invest in. 

I have no issue with public speaking on topics I am interested in and no issue with engaging people on topics however the problem in a dating scenario is perhaps politics and world affairs and economics are perhaps not good dating conversation but those are the conversations I enjoy. For the most part I am less into small talk though I do try it and there is only so much one can say about family.

Confidence to date is very different to me to confidence to speak, mostly I pick my audience and speak to the level of that audience but as with this person its nice to have my thinking tested a bit and connect in that way.

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

 By focusing on more "watered down" topics, are you implying others won't comprehend your lofty notions?  Unfortunately that seems rather condescending. 

Unfortunately apathy is a very real problem with many of the people I end up meeting. There are people I know who are very successful people but lack knowledge of the world around them. To be fair here I am apathetic at dating so I guess its a swings and roundabouts scenario. My view is you speak to the audience you have and need to be as relatable as possible, be it one person or be it ten people.

On an amusing note, my worldly knowledge is actually pretty useless versus the dating knowledge others have. 

 

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, basil67 said:

It's been a long time since I dated, but I've always been an open book.  And when I was dating, I was only attracted to men who were open in return.  Does being open make myself vulnerable to rejection in the case there's things about me which they don't like?  Sure.  But they are going to discover those things about me sooner or later anyway, so I may as well just be myself

From what you've written in the past you are interested in talkimg on such things as politics and world affairs. That you are knowledgeable in certain areas does not make you a good communicator.  Good communication skills are about being able to connect over many different kinds of topics with many different types of people.  And for many, good conversation is about personal connection - it's not about world events.  Sure, we can have a chat about the situation in X country, but people will also appreciate connection over their daily lives.  How's your sick mum?  How's your house reno going?  How's that thing with your child going?  Oh, tell me more about that restaurant, I've heard good things!  Where do you find the motivation to do (boring thing)? 

And frankly, the bolded sounds just plain pretentious.  

Pretentious it might be but its also very true, for me at least. For me the most irritating thing is for example trying to find common ground with someone I can see there is no common ground, for example I will never go on another date with a teacher, I have been on maybe a dozen dates with teachers and because I am not particularly fond of kids to sit and listen to them talking about kids does not interest me and its probably the same reason I am generally not interested in single mothers either. Again I will be removed because people do not like world affairs and politic, which is fine. Probably one of the best dates I ever went on was with a US tourist who was very into politics and world affairs, time went by very quickly. Likewise a doctor from Colorado, great intellectual dates with small talk and more interesting conversation.

You are correct though all this does not really tell anything about me or about them, there is very little interesting about me and what there is about me is not relatable to most people. Yes I can be an open book but what that looks like is not attractive, in years gone by I actually told dates face to face I am useless at dating and have never had a long term relationship, combine with with shy and awkward and metaphorically they ran for the hills. 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I will never go on another date with a teacher, I have been on maybe a dozen dates with teachers and because I am not particularly fond of kids to sit and listen to them talking about kids does not interest me and its probably the same reason I am generally not interested in single mothers either.

You realise this says more about you than them?  If you had solid communication skills, you'd be able to segue or even completely redirect into another topic.  It's as boring as anything staying on the same topic, so being able to segue is a very important skill.   For what it's worth, I've worked as a teacher's aide and exactly none of the teachers I worked with spent their free time talking about children....so I can't help but wonder if the conversation was so terribly dull that they are on that topic in a desperate bid for something to talk about.  But even if they do raise the topic, it's so easy to segue out of:  'teacher talking about disruptive class' can be segued into a discussion about whether or not they are receiving adequate support and training....and then into a broad discussion about management.  Or, you could have segued into asking about the parents and followed into different types of parenting and outcomes.  Or you could have commented about how stressful their day is and ask what they do to relax.  

Likewise, if you were a good communicator, you'd find things about yourself which can form part of a conversation.  Nobody is so boring that they have zero to relay about their own life, thoughts and feelings.  And you don't need to find things about you which are relatable.  I mean, I'm not sporty and have zero interest in watching sport, but I'd be interested in hearing about the training program for someone who's an athlete.  

Nobody is so unlucky to have all teacher dates be boring in the same way - so you are the constant here. 

[FredEire]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I have no issue with public speaking on topics I am interested in and no issue with engaging people on topics however the problem in a dating scenario is perhaps politics and world affairs and economics are perhaps not good dating conversation but those are the conversations I enjoy. For the most part I am less into small talk though I do try it and there is only so much one can say about family.

Confidence to date is very different to me to confidence to speak, mostly I pick my audience and speak to the level of that audience but as with this person its nice to have my thinking tested a bit and connect in that way.

Public speaking about some abstract topic is completely different to a one to one conversation where you are required to pick up on and respond to subtle social cues. There's many examples of people who are great at the first and terrible at the second. If you struggle greatly to get dates and for those dates to go well it suggests you need work on the second skill.

[ZA Dater]

56 minutes ago, basil67 said:

You realise this says more about you than them?  If you had solid communication skills, you'd be able to segue or even completely redirect into another topic.  It's as boring as anything staying on the same topic, so being able to segue is a very important skill.   For what it's worth, I've worked as a teacher's aide and exactly none of the teachers I worked with spent their free time talking about children....so I can't help but wonder if the conversation was so terribly dull that they are on that topic in a desperate bid for something to talk about.  But even if they do raise the topic, it's so easy to segue out of:  'teacher talking about disruptive class' can be segued into a discussion about whether or not they are receiving adequate support and training....and then into a broad discussion about management.  Or, you could have segued into asking about the parents and followed into different types of parenting and outcomes.  Or you could have commented about how stressful their day is and ask what they do to relax.  

Likewise, if you were a good communicator, you'd find things about yourself which can form part of a conversation.  Nobody is so boring that they have zero to relay about their own life, thoughts and feelings.  And you don't need to find things about you which are relatable.  I mean, I'm not sporty and have zero interest in watching sport, but I'd be interested in hearing about the training program for someone who's an athlete.  

Nobody is so unlucky to have all teacher dates be boring in the same way - so you are the constant here. 

Well I am dull lol so no surprise there. Sure, I can redirect to another topic and what happened was I then had to lead the entire conversation and when this happens for me the date is basically over, I do not mind leading but when I have to do all the talking my interest wanes quickly. I do not like talking about myself because the entire discussion then becomes unrelatable, I am far more interested in hearing about them. Sure I can relate thoughts ideas but again we are back into the world affairs and politics genre which does not work. 

I suppose I can look at this way I am good at communicating at what I need to communicate on a day to day basis. 

[FredEire]

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Well I am dull lol so no surprise there. Sure, I can redirect to another topic and what happened was I then had to lead the entire conversation and when this happens for me the date is basically over, I do not mind leading but when I have to do all the talking my interest wanes quickly. I do not like talking about myself because the entire discussion then becomes unrelatable, I am far more interested in hearing about them. Sure I can relate thoughts ideas but again we are back into the world affairs and politics genre which does not work. 

I suppose I can look at this way I am good at communicating at what I need to communicate on a day to day basis. 

I don't think you want to talk about world affairs and politics on a first date ever really. It's about getting to know them and then getting to know you. Are you being too impersonal all the time and going into abstractions?

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

Public speaking about some abstract topic is completely different to a one to one conversation where you are required to pick up on and respond to subtle social cues. There's many examples of people who are great at the first and terrible at the second. If you struggle greatly to get dates and for those dates to go well it suggests you need work on the second skill.

No but you made me think about something else with this post, I get more value like I did from this conversation than I get from 99% of dates I go on. It was nice being asked about me for the change. I given the choice of what would I rather be able to do, stare down a very successful exec, challenge his point of view, point out alternate ideas and have the confidence to do that or sit in front of a date and try figure out how to make myself attractive to here on the basis she may find me attractive but even if she did I'd lack any sort of confidence to know what to do next. Fortunately I can do the former, the cost is not being able to do the latter. At the end of the day everything costs something even if you do not realize it at the time.

Again communication happens in different ways, body language, a friend of mine is a player, he is able to pretty much charm anyone and its a real skill to have, however he is not confrontational in the work environment, he will rather placate than be decisive. Where I am decisive in the work place but the very communication skills which make me good at that make me very poor at dating, forgetting the obvious fact I am not physically attractive.

My social cues are related to if she smile, laughs and plays with her hair, any or all of those I deem to be good. But again I cant get past that stage even if I did find her attractive.

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, FredEire said:

I don't think you want to talk about world affairs and politics on a first date ever really. It's about getting to know them and then getting to know you. Are you being too impersonal all the time and going into abstractions?

It starts when they show a total lack of interest in asking me any question so I am forced to find something they will talk about and beat that topic to death. The above example was where did open up because she actually got the point of asking about me, we talked about family, growing up, fun activities, life beliefs and it was a nice conversation but it was not a date, it was just a conversation which I enjoyed but in the cold light of day someone like her would not date someone like me.

Yes, I am impersonal and purposefully so because the less I give the easier it is to walk away from the inevitable rejection. 

[FredEire]

6 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

No but you made me think about something else with this post, I get more value like I did from this conversation than I get from 99% of dates I go on. It was nice being asked about me for the change. I given the choice of what would I rather be able to do, stare down a very successful exec, challenge his point of view, point out alternate ideas and have the confidence to do that or sit in front of a date and try figure out how to make myself attractive to here on the basis she may find me attractive but even if she did I'd lack any sort of confidence to know what to do next. Fortunately I can do the former, the cost is not being able to do the latter. At the end of the day everything costs something even if you do not realize it at the time.

Again communication happens in different ways, body language, a friend of mine is a player, he is able to pretty much charm anyone and its a real skill to have, however he is not confrontational in the work environment, he will rather placate than be decisive. Where I am decisive in the work place but the very communication skills which make me good at that make me very poor at dating, forgetting the obvious fact I am not physically attractive.

My social cues are related to if she smile, laughs and plays with her hair, any or all of those I deem to be good. But again I cant get past that stage even if I did find her attractive.

Don't treat dating like a business meeting. It's completely different.

If you do it will become like one, i.e a pleasant chat about abstract ideas and you end up with a new follow on LinkedIn and not a lot else.

[ZA Dater]

19 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Don't treat dating like a business meeting. It's completely different.

If you do it will become like one, i.e a pleasant chat about abstract ideas and you end up with a new follow on LinkedIn and not a lot else.

Which is a realistic outcome for me, I mean this person is a case in point, there was a lot of more personal thoughts and ideas shared, more talk about family and those sort of things than I normally delve into, I honestly do not find this sort of conversation interesting at all but the conversation moved on and it was back and forth rather than one person leading the conversation all the time. This I like.

Over time I find myself simply enjoying the odd pleasant chat more than I do sitting on a date wondering why I am there and what I am hoping to accomplish by being there. 

Sharing more of myself with someone I am not particularly attracted to seems like a waste to me.

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

Which is a realistic outcome for me, I mean this person is a case in point, there was a lot of more personal thoughts and ideas shared, more talk about family and those sort of things than I normally delve into, I honestly do not find this sort of conversation interesting at all but the conversation moved on and it was back and forth rather than one person leading the conversation all the time. This I like.

Over time I find myself simply enjoying the odd pleasant chat more than I do sitting on a date wondering why I am there and what I am hoping to accomplish by being there. 

Sharing more of myself with someone I am not particularly attracted to seems like a waste to me.

If you don't find personal chat interesting and would rather just waffle about politics and business you're going to have a hard time dating. The other person wants to get to know you not what you feel about US foreign policy.

[ZA Dater]

30 minutes ago, FredEire said:

If you don't find personal chat interesting and would rather just waffle about politics and business you're going to have a hard time dating. The other person wants to get to know you not what you feel about US foreign policy.

I truly find much of personal chat irrelevant to the now and more a snap shot of history, again I could go on about having to deal with a sibling who attempted to stab me (she was on something at the time and the consequent way she tried to pull my family apart) but I suspect this might also not be first date discussion either or how about how I got teased because I never seemed to fit in at school. Sure, I can throw everything out there, my failed attempts to date, my stupid attempts to attract people. None of this interpersonal stuff is relevant to a date and all of it would have people running for the hills.

What I do find relevant is a persons opinion and their thoughts, how they speak, how they conduct themselves etc. 

[FredEire]

29 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I truly find much of personal chat irrelevant to the now and more a snap shot of history, again I could go on about having to deal with a sibling who attempted to stab me (she was on something at the time and the consequent way she tried to pull my family apart) but I suspect this might also not be first date discussion either or how about how I got teased because I never seemed to fit in at school. Sure, I can throw everything out there, my failed attempts to date, my stupid attempts to attract people. None of this interpersonal stuff is relevant to a date and all of it would have people running for the hills.

What I do find relevant is a persons opinion and their thoughts, how they speak, how they conduct themselves etc. 

What are your hobbies, what do you enjoy in life, what makes you smile? Music, books, movies, interests. These are all good topics for a first date, not dark personal stuff and certainly not politics and world affairs.

You may think it's all boring and irrelevant but you are being really rigid and only thinking about what you want. If you want good inter-personal relationships you have to consider what the other person wants. If not then great, do whatever you want but you're going to struggle a lot.

[basil67]

8 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Sure, I can redirect to another topic and what happened was I then had to lead the entire conversation and when this happens for me the date is basically over, I do not mind leading but when I have to do all the talking my interest wanes quickly

No, you don't have to lead the entire conversation. When you get to the end of the topic, pause.  Let the pause hang even if it becomes uncomfortable. If they are able to talk, you will find that they fill the gap with something.   

[ZA Dater]

On 3/12/2024 at 3:32 PM, FredEire said:

What are your hobbies, what do you enjoy in life, what makes you smile? Music, books, movies, interests. These are all good topics for a first date, not dark personal stuff and certainly not politics and world affairs.

You may think it's all boring and irrelevant but you are being really rigid and only thinking about what you want. If you want good inter-personal relationships you have to consider what the other person wants. If not then great, do whatever you want but you're going to struggle a lot.

The degree I share and the degree of interest I take is proportional to how attractive I find the person overall. If I can see "ok this conversation is going really well and flowing" I'll share lots and ask lots but this is a two way street.

Agreed those topics are good and do tend to use them but also consider 95% of my life revolves around work and things connected directly and indirectly to work so this is very difficult for many people to understand. 

There is someone I am very attracted to, very compatible careers and conversation just flows in all the informal directions mentioned above but I suspect there is not real attraction on her side so its largely "friend zone". In this instance I am happy to just spend as much time with her as I can, granted careers make that challenging. 

[Weezy1973]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

…I suspect there is not real attraction on her side so its largely "friend zone". In this instance I am happy to just spend as much time with her as I can, granted careers make that challenging. 

Same story as always, OP. And as always, if you want different results you’re going to have to do things differently. 

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Same story as always, OP. And as always, if you want different results you’re going to have to do things differently. 

I do what I know how to do.  Perhaps the one thing I am doing this time is opening up a lot more than I would ordinarily do. Sharing more than I would normally do, this does seem to be getting results in so much text conversations are better.

One thing I do intend to do is ask her on a date. May as roll the dice even though I am very very unsure how that will go down.