Perspective

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

And again, what travelling have you done?  With all this world interest, I would expect you to be well travelled

Irrelevant. A basic knowledge of the world around one is pretty simple to acquire by reading and taking an interest. People who lack ambition take an interest in nothing barring their own little world around them and are often apathetic to boot. 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

So you can only be your best self if you have a partner who makes you want to be that best self?   And here you are trying to tell us that you're ambitious....

Will you just listen to yourself?  Can you really not see why women aren't attracted to you?  Seriously, your problems are far more than skin deep.  Perhaps you're best off going back to incel groups...they will give you the affirmation that the women are the problem and you are just fine and then you can carry on blaming everyone else

Well I cant very well be challenged sitting opposite apathetic people now can I and frankly its better to not even bother engaging with people like that on a social level because the discussion goes nowhere at best and at worst they end up looking very silly and that it not something which is nice. 

Oh yes my entire being is a problem, lets just be blunt about that, there is zero good about me, nothing likeable and I am just an ugly bitter person. 

I've never been part of incel groups nor do I intend to be but the reality is if the utopia you all paint of dating were true there would be no need for such radically wrong groups to begin with.  There are two sides to every coin and you simply cannot ignore that.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, SoulCat said:

Oh, get the absolute **** out of here with this sort of ridiculous nonsense!

Random women on your daily constitutional are NOT responsible for your confidence levels, they are NOT required to interact with some strange man just because he's decided that she's attractive enough for him to accost her.
You are not EVER entitled to someone's time and attention like that.

NOT EVER.

Accost, what a wonderful word but inaccurate in this context. I merely greeted and continued walking, I did not stop while greeting and it was pretty clear by that I did not intend to engage in conversation. 

Then again I have been to bars and other places where much the same happened, cold shoulder I think they call it. But one of your suggestions I did do, I went to a coffee shop, took out my book, ordered some cake and whiled away some time whilst seeing the world move past. I was not disturbed with any random conversation. It was as always interesting to observe.

[SoulCat]

27 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Accost, what a wonderful word but inaccurate in this context. I merely greeted and continued walking, I did not stop while greeting and it was pretty clear by that I did not intend to engage in conversation. 

 

Oh my dude...
The fact that you pompously seek to correct my grammar rather than give your own behaviour anything more than a passing glance is so, so illustrative of your entire repellent personality.

 

31 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Then again I have been to bars and other places where much the same happened, cold shoulder I think they call it.

YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO ANYONE'S TIME OR ATTENTION. 

ANYWHERE

AT ALL

EVER.

 

33 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I went to a coffee shop, took out my book, ordered some cake and whiled away some time whilst seeing the world move past. I was not disturbed with any random conversation. It was as always interesting to observe.

 Well done, have a cookie 🙄

[basil67]

53 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Well I cant very well be challenged sitting opposite apathetic people now can I and frankly its better to not even bother engaging with people like that on a social level because the discussion goes nowhere at best and at worst they end up looking very silly and that it not something which is nice. 

Oh yes my entire being is a problem, lets just be blunt about that, there is zero good about me, nothing likeable and I am just an ugly bitter person. 

I've never been part of incel groups nor do I intend to be but the reality is if the utopia you all paint of dating were true there would be no need for such radically wrong groups to begin with.  There are two sides to every coin and you simply cannot ignore that.

My point was that if you're the ambitious person you say you are, then you should be able to challenge yourself.  It's not in the job spec of our partners to challenge us.  As for them looking silly, I would say that you sound like a dick when you say such things about others.  

Exactly nobody has said that dating is a utopia and we've all got our war stories.  But pretty much everybody is in agreement that your approach is wrong.  As for the incel guys, I would imagine that their approach is wrong too.  It may be due to their unrealistic preferences or a personality/social skill disorder.  

Edited May 2 by basil67

[basil67]

6 minutes ago, SoulCat said:

Accost, what a wonderful word but inaccurate in this context. I merely greeted and continued walking, I did not stop while greeting and it was pretty clear by that I did not intend to engage in conversation. 

If the woman who avoided you was very attractive, she would have shut you down so that you don't even get the chance to accost her.  From the point of view of the woman in question, experience with being accosted would accurately sum up her reason for avoidance.

Do you know that a man can keep walking and but then turn back if he gets a response? 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

My point was that if you're the ambitious person you say you are, then you should be able to challenge yourself.  It's not in the job spec of our partners to challenge us.  As for them looking silly, I would say that you sound like a dick when you say such things about others.  

Exactly nobody has said that dating is a utopia and we've all got our war stories.  But pretty much everybody is in agreement that your approach is wrong.  As for the incel guys, I would imagine that their approach is wrong too.  It may be due to their unrealistic preferences or a personality/social skill disorder.  

Or the fact its in fact fundamentally flawed, you cannot blame everyone approach and park the blame on the rejected. It takes two to tango. Might be worthwhile figuring out why they adopted the views they have, what happened to create such radical people, people do not adopt views without external influence and this is true of any point of view. My approach might be wrong but is there in fact any correct dating point of view? 

Our points of view are shaped by experiences, mine are not the same as yours and yours are not the same as someone five cars behind you in the traffic. Its why this a multi billion dollar industry of supposed guru's, therapists, match makers, dating apps. If it was so uniform we could all do the same thing and get the same results. Its also highly contrived in many respects. 

Ask yourself why people cheat, yes its wrong but instead of focusing on the wrong, maybe understand the why not that there is justification. Its easy to sit and take pot shots at my approach and decry my views but there is a definite why as to how these views were adopted. For years I have tried to change my view on this through trying to get better experiences which do no confirm my points of view, guess what almost always my points of view are confirmed.

Unrealistic expectations, these only apply if absolutely nobody actually meets these expectations, I have met plenty of people I would date so my expectations are not unrealistic.

[FredEire]

I find it interesting that OP lists all the qualities he wants in a woman but possesses very few of them himself.

Curiousity but with a myopic world view based on business and politics chit-chat

A great conversationalist but he struggles with conversations outside his narrow range of interests.

Warm and caring but he looks down on people he doesn't see to be valuable.

If you're a no-confidence, uninteresting and insecure man it stands to reason that you will only attract no-confidence, uninteresting and insecure women. You have to be that which you want to attract.

[BaileyB]

Well this discussion has sunk to a new level of ridiculously irrational reasoning and self deprecation…

[NuevoYorko]

9 hours ago, basil67 said:

 

Try saying 'good morning' to an old lady as you walk past.  She's likely feeling invisible these days and it will make her day to be acknowledged.   

 

I believe he "can't be bothered."   No potential payback in it.   It might make you feel nice to make somebody's day by acknowledging them, but I do not think that OP would experience that.   And heaven forbid if he said "good morning" to an old lady or fat person and they did not respond.  The ire.  

[FredEire]

26 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

I believe he "can't be bothered."   No potential payback in it.   It might make you feel nice to make somebody's day by acknowledging them, but I do not think that OP would experience that.   And heaven forbid if he said "good morning" to an old lady or fat person and they did not respond.  The ire.  

What he doesn't realise is that unlocking compassion and being able to chat to an old lady in the park is actually what would make him more attractive to these desirable women.

But his mindset is ugh this doesn't get me sex or power or make me better looking why would I bother.

[BaileyB]

41 minutes ago, FredEire said:

But his mindset is ugh this doesn't get me sex or power or make me better looking why would I bother.

I don’t think it’s about sex.

This is about the perceived prestige and validation that he believes will come from having a beautiful woman on his arm. Ideally, she would also offer companionship and emotional support, stimulate his intellect, and maintain his fragile sense of his self-esteem. 

It’s never been about what he brings to the relationship - it’s all about what the right woman can do for him…

[NuevoYorko]

The bottom line is that it's not the OP's "fault" that he has limited capacity for empathy or to understand that people can have value (even to him) even if they are not extremely attractive.   

His life would be enhanced and his personality would develop a bit more dimension (or maybe a lot more) if he were open to thinking about and appreciating other people even if they are not physically beautiful or at some specific social level that he finds impressive.

I'm not talking about DATING.  I do not disagree with the concept of attraction being necessary to even start a relationship.

But, the OP thinks that any other type of interaction with human (women particularly) is a waste of his time.  

Thus - he is remaining profoundly stunted.

We gain so much from our relationships and even much less close interactions with others.  That's how we learn about ourselves from other perspectives than our own ego, fears, and what was implanted from our families of origin.

The OP is without this. 

His constant moaning about "lack of experience" is valid, but it's on the wrong track.   Women are not super concerned about how good a guy is in bed or his ability to use smarmy PUA crap to win them over.    If the OP were not averse to learning some social skills and HOW TO ENJOY LIFE he would be at least 90% more attractive than he is now.  As of now, he is like a pubescent child who has lived most of their life in a school room or their bedroom with a computer, and not functioning out in the world and with other people.

One can be very shy and a total introvert and still gain knowledge about other people ... if they are willing and have a kernel of interest in other people.

OP doesn't.

Unless they are a '10' rated female human who is this tall, has that career, and a couple of other things.

Big problem here.

[FredEire]

7 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I don’t think it’s about sex.

This is about the perceived prestige and validation that he believes will come from having a beautiful woman on his arm. Ideally, she would also offer companionship and emotional support, stimulate his intellect, and maintain his fragile sense of his self-esteem. 

It’s never been about what he brings to the relationship - it’s all about what the right woman can do for him…

Yes I actually realised this after posting it.

Some people itt have questioned if he's asexual as sex seems very secondary to him and not something he's particularly comfortable with.

The fundamental issue is there's no love in his life, he didn't get it from those around him growing up and so he can't give it to himself.

I believe these superficial requirements he sets up are a safety net because being loved and being able to love himself would teach him how much he has lost.

I can't love myself and those around me because I need to get it from a woman who is X, Y and Z first.

Edited May 2 by FredEire

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

This is about the perceived prestige and validation that he believes will come from having a beautiful woman on his arm.

We’ve all heard about women who had “daddy issues” having been abandoned by their father or having an emotionally unavailable father, so looking for validation from men to give them a feeling of self-worth.

 

I suspect @ZA Dater has “mommy issues” and is similarly looking for validation from women to give him a feeling of self worth. 
 

So it’s not only not about sex, it’s not even about a relationship. It’s not about being able to relate to another human being. It’s just about trying to get that validation. 

[FredEire]

5 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

We’ve all heard about women who had “daddy issues” having been abandoned by their father or having an emotionally unavailable father, so looking for validation from men to give them a feeling of self-worth.

 

I suspect @ZA Dater has “mommy issues” and is similarly looking for validation from women to give him a feeling of self worth. 
 

So it’s not only not about sex, it’s not even about a relationship. It’s not about being able to relate to another human being. It’s just about trying to get that validation. 

Yep. People talk a lot about daddy issues in women but not enough about mommy issues in men.

It happens a lot, a helicopter mom for whom nothing was ever good enough, creating a man who is desperate for female attention from unhealthy or unattainable women.

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, FredEire said:

I find it interesting that OP lists all the qualities he wants in a woman but possesses very few of them himself.

Curiousity but with a myopic world view based on business and politics chit-chat

A great conversationalist but he struggles with conversations outside his narrow range of interests.

Warm and caring but he looks down on people he doesn't see to be valuable.

If you're a no-confidence, uninteresting and insecure man it stands to reason that you will only attract no-confidence, uninteresting and insecure women. You have to be that which you want to attract.

Actually I can talk on many topics, not sure this is actually much of an asset to be honest.

Nah you left out the part of being physically unattractive, that's applicable to the last sentence.

People look down at me and see me of mo value. So what of it.

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, FredEire said:

What he doesn't realise is that unlocking compassion and being able to chat to an old lady in the park is actually what would make him more attractive to these desirable women.

But his mindset is ugh this doesn't get me sex or power or make me better looking why would I bother.

What absolute nonsense, how does greeting people get me matches on dating sites? For what its worth I do greet people all sorts of people too.

[FredEire]

7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Actually I can talk on many topics, not sure this is actually much of an asset to be honest.

Nah you left out the part of being physically unattractive, that's applicable to the last sentence.

People look down at me and see me of mo value. So what of it.

Talking on many topics in not social skills, a lot of people can talk at anyone about anything but can't pick up on cues and nuances and built rapport.

Maybe so, but the other qualities are a lot uglier than an ugly face. Either way, the people on this forum who've seen photos of you don't seem to think you are unattractive.

Firstly that is your perception of what they are doing, not the objective truth, secondly it's an ugly quality in a person, even if you're right that others look down on you it's not something you should do yourself.

I was pretty badly bullied in school for a time. The reason was that I treated myself like dirt and it gave tacit permission for bullies to come in and give me a hard time, drawn towards an easy victim. This justified my belief that I have no worth as a person, and so people continued to look down on me until I got some hobbies, developed a bit more of a spine, met more worthwhile people and gained more self worth. You'll be stuck in the negative feedback loop until you choose to step out of it.

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, BaileyB said:

I don’t think it’s about sex.

This is about the perceived prestige and validation that he believes will come from having a beautiful woman on his arm. Ideally, she would also offer companionship and emotional support, stimulate his intellect, and maintain his fragile sense of his self-esteem. 

It’s never been about what he brings to the relationship - it’s all about what the right woman can do for him…

Guess what it does feel really nice to spend time around beautiful intelligent, intellectual stimulating people. I have never hidden that fact and it's a part of what I find attractive. 

What do I bring, absolute loyalty always, absolute committment, absolute support no matter what, a good listening ear, I am very generous and I do take an interest. I know what I can offer but I am not going to offer it to people who I do not find attractive overall.

[FredEire]

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

What absolute nonsense, how does greeting people get me matches on dating sites? For what its worth I do greet people all sorts of people too.

Indeed, this is the response I expected and it just shows that you are so stubbornly focused on one thing that you don't get the big picture, at all.

It relates to better dating because you erode the bitterness and hate in your heart and allows you to embrace everyone around you and yourself with open arms.

Maybe you do, but it's pretty clear from your posting that you find talking to anyone but a beautiful woman a pretty tedious chore. Until you can see the value in everyone and be open to giving and receiving love from everyone including yourself you're going to be projecting bitter and hateful energy.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Talking on many topics in not social skills, a lot of people can talk at anyone about anything but can't pick up on cues and nuances and built rapport.

Maybe so, but the other qualities are a lot uglier than an ugly face. Either way, the people on this forum who've seen photos of you don't seem to think you are unattractive.

Firstly that is your perception of what they are doing, not the objective truth, secondly it's an ugly quality in a person, even if you're right that others look down on you it's not something you should do yourself.

I was pretty badly bullied in school for a time. The reason was that I treated myself like dirt and it gave tacit permission for bullies to come in and give me a hard time, drawn towards an easy victim. This justified my belief that I have no worth as a person, and so people continued to look down on me until I got some hobbies, developed a bit more of a spine, met more worthwhile people and gained more self worth. You'll be stuck in the negative feedback loop until you choose to step out of it.

I am sorry you were bullied, I was teased relentlessly for my entire school career. Like you I had a choice either physically engage which would not be my choice even though I was taller than most. Noy tactic was to ensure I was smarter than them and I had to show as little reaction as possible. Once I lifted my fist but other times I could throw back barb's which made them look silly.

I have huge respect for people who overcome bullies.

By the way I was teased because my hobbies were not mainstream among other things. What I did get was a lot of respect at the end of the day because eventually people stopped teasing me because I might make them look very silly.

 

[FredEire]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Guess what it does feel really nice to spend time around beautiful intelligent, intellectual stimulating people. I have never hidden that fact and it's a part of what I find attractive. 

What do I bring, absolute loyalty always, absolute committment, absolute support no matter what, a good listening ear, I am very generous and I do take an interest. I know what I can offer but I am not going to offer it to people who I do not find attractive overall.

Wow. Just think about what you've said there for moment.

You're saying nobody who you don't find attractive deserves anything from you.

By your own admission you are not attractive, therefore you deserve absolutely nothing from anything else and you should be perfectly happy about it, if that's how your worldview goes.

Or you could, you know, be open to flirting a bit with the chubby girl who works in the coffee shop because she's a really nice person and it raises your vibration, or having a chat with the granny in the park whose husband passed away because it brightens her day a bit.

But no you must only simp for beautiful women in case they throw a crumb if kindness your way. It makes you come across a bit of a hateful character without a genuine bone in his body, as honest and loyal as you claim to be.

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Indeed, this is the response I expected and it just shows that you are so stubbornly focused on one thing that you don't get the big picture, at all.

It relates to better dating because you erode the bitterness and hate in your heart and allows you to embrace everyone around you and yourself with open arms.

Maybe you do, but it's pretty clear from your posting that you find talking to anyone but a beautiful woman a pretty tedious chore. Until you can see the value in everyone and be open to giving and receiving love from everyone including yourself you're going to be projecting bitter and hateful energy.

Yes all good and well but then I land up having to reject people I am not interested in because for whatever reason they do start to like me. Pretty people to some extent intimidate me, give me a high conflict situation over having to engage with someone on a cold basis.

[FredEire]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am sorry you were bullied, I was teased relentlessly for my entire school career. Like you I had a choice either physically engage which would not be my choice even though I was taller than most. Noy tactic was to ensure I was smarter than them and I had to show as little reaction as possible. Once I lifted my fist but other times I could throw back barb's which made them look silly.

I have huge respect for people who overcome bullies.

By the way I was teased because my hobbies were not mainstream among other things. What I did get was a lot of respect at the end of the day because eventually people stopped teasing me because I might make them look very silly.

 

That's good, it's something a lot of people go through in their school years.

But I only mentioned it as bullying stops once it's not tolerated, as does any other kind of negative treatment from others. The buck stops with you, you respect yourself and so will others, and if you respect them also they may even like you.

Edited May 2 by FredEire