Perspective

[NuevoYorko]

This is probably the first time I've heard of a man complaining because he thinks women with a similar body shape to his should hit on him.

I don't really think I've seen many women with a similar body shape to mine.  Aren't they supposed to be built differently?

[basil67]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Ultimately the only way I could ever make it work and I realised this year's ago is to start off a friend's and somehow advance things from there because that way the person can get to know me. It's very difficult to impress people in five minutes which is where it's a total loss when I go up against the fun type of guy but people who know me well do comment I have some good qualities.

Unfortunately friendzone to relationship seems nearly impossible.

yeah, you’ve said all this before

But you’re dodging the question of why you think a woman could lower her standards for you when you won’t do the same for her

Edited May 4 by basil67

[Weezy1973]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Ultimately the only way I could ever make it work and I realised this year's ago is to start off a friend's and somehow advance things from there because that way the person can get to know me.

Since you’ve been posting, this is the only strategy you’ve used as far as I can tell and it’s failed every time. The definition of stupidity is trying the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. 
 

Why don’t you just ask women you’re attracted to out on dates instead? I know you’ve never done it, but you’ve got nothing to lose at this point right?

[ZA Dater]

49 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Since you’ve been posting, this is the only strategy you’ve used as far as I can tell and it’s failed every time. The definition of stupidity is trying the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. 
 

Why don’t you just ask women you’re attracted to out on dates instead? I know you’ve never done it, but you’ve got nothing to lose at this point right?

No point when they are not single anymore.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Not interested in those people at all. The level of interaction is very poor always and again I have to try and lead the entire conversation .......one of the things I find most attractive is confidence.

I forgot to address this.  The woman I described was slim but not pretty, smart but socially awkward.

Why do you assume this smart woman has can't hold up her own end of a conversation?   People who are socially awkward can still shine in situations where they are comfortable and/or knowledgeable (I'm looking at you here).   If she's an academic with a doctorate in political science, don't you think she could provide you with great debate and be confident in her delivery?

Also, most people find confidence attractive.  Shame you can't offer what you want in return.  You're still punching above your weight my friend

 

Edited May 4 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I forgot to address this.  The woman I described was slim but not pretty, smart but socially awkward.

Why do you assume this smart woman has poor conversational skills and is lacking in confidence?   If she's an academic with a doctorate in political science, don't you think she could provide you with very stimulating conversation and be very confident in herself?

 

Confident in herself and confident around other people are very different. 

I tried to date someone like you mention above, she was not remotely interested in me. Actually had a very nice date with her but she simply was not interested.

The conclusion for me, it's easier to just be alone rather than going through this cycle of hope rejection reality. I have some sot of very sporadic communication with someone I do find attractive so I'll just enjoy whatever I can get from that, I'd date her but she seemingly isn't interested and I was basically told by a mutual friend I have no chance with her at all.

[basil67]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Confident in herself and confident around other people are very different. 

I tried to date someone like you mention above, she was not remotely interested in me. Actually had a very nice date with her but she simply was not interested.

The conclusion for me, it's easier to just be alone rather than going through this cycle of hope rejection reality. I have some sot of very sporadic communication with someone I do find attractive so I'll just enjoy whatever I can get from that, I'd date her but she seemingly isn't interested and I was basically told by a mutual friend I have no chance with her at all.

Well given that you stand on the peripheral at events, you're hardly confident around other people....so you're not in a position to expect this of others.  Punching above your weight again.

And if you did try to date someone like this previously and conversation was good, why did you previously say that you expected the conversation would be poor?  

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Well given that you stand on the peripheral at events, you're hardly confident around other people....so you're not in a position to expect this of others.  Punching above your weight again.

And if you did try to date someone like this previously and conversation was good, why did you previously say that you expected the conversation would be poor?  

For me every single minute of most days is about punching above my weight, trying to do ever more difficult things. It's always been so. 

I had one date with that person, I have sat with other people and the conversation absolutely did not work. 

 

[basil67]

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

For me every single minute of most days is about punching above my weight, trying to do ever more difficult things. It's always been so. 

I had one date with that person, I have sat with other people and the conversation absolutely did not work. 

But from your description of your life, you're very successful at your profession.  It's why you're the guest of honour at events, so clearly you're not punching above intellectually. 

Meanwhile, we've all had conversations with others which did not work.  What's your point?

Edited May 4 by basil67

[FredEire]

To share an example from my own life, I'm currently dating two girls, one is a lot prettier than the other but I'm starting to think I might be getting feelings for the other girl. The reason is that we have better chemistry.

If you're hyper focused on the superficial though you're never going to realise these things because you never get to know the human being just the appearance.

And just in case no I'm not saying you should date people you don't find attractive. I was attracted to both girls obviously otherwise I wouldn't have gone on a date with them. I'm just saying that the intangibles of chemistry are a lot more powerful than pure looks, but living in your head hoping for an ideal woman you're never going to experience this.

[Foxhall]

On 5/3/2024 at 1:25 AM, BaileyB said:

With much respect, I would argue to opposite. This discussion lacks depth of thought - it’s pretty much the same superficial and rigid ideology spouted in a repetitive and at this point - frankly predictable manner. I would certainly not say that OP is reflective - he offers the occasional platitude before returning to the same, tired talking points… Not once in this discussion has he even pretended to consider any of the advice offered by any posters… Fifty one pages into a thread that is not the first of it’s kind, and he hasn’t expanded his thinking in any way… that lacks any depth of thought and reflection, IMHO.

Fair enough yes I accept what your saying,

I still maintain he is "reflective" but ill not argue!

Id imagine it should be possible meet at least one "suitable" match say every two years- you know thats not a lot to ask for- 

Personally Ive always found the dating game hard but every so often the spirits can be lifted.

[Weezy1973]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

No point when they are not single anymore.

There have been many women through the years that you’ve been attracted to. You usually post about them here. It’s why we all know about “K” and the single mom that stayed with you awhile,  and multiple others. There will be more. 

[ZA Dater]

15 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

There have been many women through the years that you’ve been attracted to. You usually post about them here. It’s why we all know about “K” and the single mom that stayed with you awhile,  and multiple others. There will be more. 

I'm just not that interested because this was by far the best I am likely to find in terms of communication and shared interests. Though I will still see her from time to time, she never been interested in dating me, neither have any of that others you mention above.Let's not fool ourselves not wanting to date single mothers drastically reduces the dating pool.

I also made a promise to myself 20 years ago, if I'd not got this right by a set year I'd give up completely. That date is drawing near so I'm taking time to reflect on everything since I made that promise.

 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, FredEire said:

To share an example from my own life, I'm currently dating two girls, one is a lot prettier than the other but I'm starting to think I might be getting feelings for the other girl. The reason is that we have better chemistry.

If you're hyper focused on the superficial though you're never going to realise these things because you never get to know the human being just the appearance.

And just in case no I'm not saying you should date people you don't find attractive. I was attracted to both girls obviously otherwise I wouldn't have gone on a date with them. I'm just saying that the intangibles of chemistry are a lot more powerful than pure looks, but living in your head hoping for an ideal woman you're never going to experience this.

I agree with you, every person I found super attractive was because of multiple things not just physical looks. Good luck choosing between the two! 

 

[FredEire]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I agree with you, every person I found super attractive was because of multiple things not just physical looks. Good luck choosing between the two! 

 

But would you go for someone you are moderately attracted to in terms of looks but more attracted to in terms of chemistry?

It seems from your posting that only the full package will do, drop dead gorgeous, great personality, etc etc.

I think the point a lot of people here have been trying to make is that this woman doesn't really exist, even if she seems that way at first there will be things about her that you don't like, looks fade etc.

The key thing is do you bond well enough together to consider making them your life companion. Do you feel they add to your life and you can be yourself and grow as a person around them?

Frankly it's quite hard to attract model good-looking people unless you're model good-looking yourself, and even when you do there's no guarantee the personality is going to match the physical beauty. And even when they are both very attractive and a very nice person, they may not click with you on a deeper level, that third one is the most important of all.

As others have said here that last point is the reason why very unattractive people can meet and genuinely be happy and in love. Genuine bonding can happen no matter what your partner looks like, and also great sex is great sex and doesn't have much to do with a pretty face either. The physical factor is mostly looking nice on your arm and the ego boost of sexual conquest, which doesn't count for much.

[FredEire]

I'd also add that while I agree there is a degree of superficiality in dating (you're not like to see a 21 year old model with a fat balding 50 year old unless it's a sugar daddy situation), if you're talking about shared interests and compatibility looks should be no object in this case. You often complain on her that you can't meet anyone because of your looks, though.

[NuevoYorko]

42 minutes ago, FredEire said:

But would you go for someone you are moderately attracted to in terms of looks but more attracted to in terms of chemistry?

I don't think that the OP experiences "chemistry."   He's attracted to objectively attractive women of a certain type.  They are "bubbly" types so they can get a conversation going with almost anybody even if that person is pretty much not there for it.   

He also has no idea that being attracted like that doesn't have anything to do with developing a relationship.

Physical attributes and, honestly, personality, are superficial traits that don't do much beyond "attract."  After that comes the challenging part, where relationships are concerned.

OP is stuck in a pubescent loop where he's like a loner kid in his room with a poster of Farrah Faucet, daydreaming about how she's the only woman for him and how wonderful his life would be if she were his girlfriend.  

That's as deep as it goes.

[FredEire]

15 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

I don't think that the OP experiences "chemistry."   He's attracted to objectively attractive women of a certain type.  They are "bubbly" types so they can get a conversation going with almost anybody even if that person is pretty much not there for it.   

He also has no idea that being attracted like that doesn't have anything to do with developing a relationship.

Physical attributes and, honestly, personality, are superficial traits that don't do much beyond "attract."  After that comes the challenging part, where relationships are concerned.

OP is stuck in a pubescent loop where he's like a loner kid in his room with a poster of Farrah Faucet, daydreaming about how she's the only woman for him and how wonderful his life would be if she were his girlfriend.  

That's as deep as it goes.

Yes, I was also thinking that. He doesn't get to that point.

A thought experiment OP. I know the numbers system can be a bit crude, but on a scale of physical attraction where 0 is extremely unattractive and 10 is drop dead gorgeous, what would be the lowest you would be willing to date someone if all the other factors were met in terms of chemistry and common interests etc?

The issue is that, apart from the fact barely anyone attracts people they consider 10/10s, even for arguments sake if two women were crazy about you, one being a 10 in physical attraction and the other being a 6, there is absolutely no guarantee that the more physically attractive woman would be the best fit for you in a relationship. Partly just due to the fact looks don't correlate with personality, and I've also seen a number of cases where someone is dating "out of their league" and develop a kind of imposter syndrome insecurity that makes the whole thing quite toxic pretty quickly.

If you're saying that the only people you attract are people you consider in no way attractive whatsoever, I can almost guarantee that's down to your personality issues, lack of grounding in the real world and profoundly negative outlook on life, not your looks.

Edited May 4 by FredEire

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I also made a promise to myself 20 years ago, if I'd not got this right by a set year I'd give up completely.

 

A better promise to yourself would be, if what you’re doing isn’t working, try changing what you’re doing. Or if your beliefs aren’t helpful in accomplishing what you want, challenge those beliefs. 
 

You refuse to do either of those things, so of course you haven’t had much success. The tiniest bit of success was the relationship you had, but alas she didn’t boost your ego like you had hoped because she wasn’t your physical ideal and was older than you (which in your mind makes her low value). 
 

And because you’ve just stayed the course, you’ve built zero resilience to normal things like rejection. To build resilience you have to take risks, fail, and then learn that failure didn’t actually kill you and you can try again. The people who succeed the most also tend to take the most risks. And that’s because they have resilience. Failure (or rejection in your case) just isn’t a big deal to them. They learn from it and move on. You don’t do that.

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, FredEire said:

But would you go for someone you are moderately attracted to in terms of looks but more attracted to in terms of chemistry?

It seems from your posting that only the full package will do, drop dead gorgeous, great personality, etc etc.

I think the point a lot of people here have been trying to make is that this woman doesn't really exist, even if she seems that way at first there will be things about her that you don't like, looks fade etc.

The key thing is do you bond well enough together to consider making them your life companion. Do you feel they add to your life and you can be yourself and grow as a person around them?

Frankly it's quite hard to attract model good-looking people unless you're model good-looking yourself, and even when you do there's no guarantee the personality is going to match the physical beauty. And even when they are both very attractive and a very nice person, they may not click with you on a deeper level, that third one is the most important of all.

As others have said here that last point is the reason why very unattractive people can meet and genuinely be happy and in love. Genuine bonding can happen no matter what your partner looks like, and also great sex is great sex and doesn't have much to do with a pretty face either. The physical factor is mostly looking nice on your arm and the ego boost of sexual conquest, which doesn't count for much.

I think I have been somewhat at explaining that there is a huge degree of intangible to what I find attractive, its not something that can be easily described, its simply a feeling which I think sounds ridiculous but its exactly what it is. I have sat around very attractive people and not had this so its not about looks, a lot about it is how someone engages BUT this alone cannot make up for a lack of physical attraction. My ex was wonderfully engaging but as much as I tried to force myself I could never really find her that physically attractive. The bold is one of the things I look at most and I am hyper critical of myself in this respect.

For me no physical attraction renders the relationship friend zone from the off and I would think this is similar for many people. I completely disagree with the last line because if that were true looks would be irrelevant and not matter to anyone, whereas it clearly do matter a great deal in terms of initial attraction.

I maintain there needs to be some overall attraction, one positive cannot remove a ton of negative (this applies to ME in case anyone is wondering), I have spent years trying to use whatever positives I have to try overcome the negatives and when it comes to bonding there generally needs to be some common ground to bond over.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

A better promise to yourself would be, if what you’re doing isn’t working, try changing what you’re doing. Or if your beliefs aren’t helpful in accomplishing what you want, challenge those beliefs. 
 

You refuse to do either of those things, so of course you haven’t had much success. The tiniest bit of success was the relationship you had, but alas she didn’t boost your ego like you had hoped because she wasn’t your physical ideal and was older than you (which in your mind makes her low value). 
 

And because you’ve just stayed the course, you’ve built zero resilience to normal things like rejection. To build resilience you have to take risks, fail, and then learn that failure didn’t actually kill you and you can try again. The people who succeed the most also tend to take the most risks. And that’s because they have resilience. Failure (or rejection in your case) just isn’t a big deal to them. They learn from it and move on. You don’t do that.

I have changed what I have been doing multiple times, care to explain why in ten years I have not got any decent matches on OLD and care to explain why this would be different if I sat in multiple coffee shops for example each day? If someone is passing on me on a dating app there is no way that will change in person.

My ego had nothing to do with it and she was much higher value than me on most levels. Quite why she put up with me is something I have always wondered. 

Alright I going to disclose some deeply hurtful memories, perhaps for perspective. I'd appreciate if this was not thrown back at me.

Mate, please do not talk to me about resilience, you have no idea the life I have had and things I have had to go through (and see), trust me having a sibling charge at you trying to kill you with a knife does not rank highly, nor does having to spend a 21st birthday going into extremely dangerous areas to try and find said sibling then spending the rest of between police stations and hospitals. Having to send your sibling to jail, the trauma of that, you try and live through five years of this roller coaster of hell, oh and while this was going on I still managed to obtain a degree. Please do not talk to me about resilience.

As for failure, I was told at a fairly young age by a teacher I would amount to nothing, guess what I went out to prove them wrong and ever single day and I still do. The kid who was apparently going to amount to nothing mixes with interesting people, commands respect of these people, can stand up and speak in front of said people with confidence and in my hobby I am considered to be an expert. Not bad for someone who was apparently going to amount to nothing. For what its worth I do not crow about any of this when I go on dates, if anything I hate talking about myself and prefer to take an interest in whoever I am talking to.

For what its worth my current interest is also older (less so). I am risk adverse when there is no apparent upside and yes I am prepared to metaphorically fall on my face but there needs to be some sort of upside which does not exist with dating, there is never this upside, my dating confidence has been beaten up over years, for years I have the see the apparent ease others have, the choice they have, the way people are attracted to them, the interactions, the social and I have never ever been able to garner that sort of interest irrespective what I did. 

My question to you is this: Have you been to a party and been drawn to a particular person, perhaps the way they speak, do you end up evaluating if they are on your level before deciding if you are interested? Have you then seen the sort of people talking to here, seeing the body language and then thinking "well I cant do that". For year I tried balance out the bad with what I know I am good at, the problem what I am good at falls so down the value chain its mostly useless. You tell me how you would feel after years of this, just imagine it for a minute.

Giving up is not really in my nature, perhaps you can understand why but I also will absolutely not settle either.

 

[Weezy1973]

@ZA Dater Nobody is going mock you for your past trauma. Most of us suspected you’ve had a tough go of life when you were younger. It explains a lot of your beliefs and worldview. However despite your experiences, your worldview and beliefs when it comes to love and relationships is wrong. 
 

55 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

My question to you is this: Have you been to a party and been drawn to a particular person, perhaps the way they speak, do you end up evaluating if they are on your level before deciding if you are interested?

I was diagnosed with a severe social anxiety disorder as well as agoraphobia in my mid-30s. Approaching a woman at a party, bar, club or broadly any social gathering was never going to happen.
 

All my romantic encounters were through people I knew (social circle, school, work etc.) and through online dating. I met my wife through an online dating site. As I stated before, I never consciously thought about whether they were “in my level”. If they met some minimum attractiveness level for me, they were an option. My dates and relationships ranged from people that would be considered conventionally attractive, to women that probably wouldn’t turn many heads, but were still attractive to me. Obviously most of those relationships didn’t last and many dates were one and done. Which is why those of us with experience downplay superficial traits. Mutual attraction is really not that meaningful in the long run. 
 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Have you then seen the sort of people talking to here, seeing the body language and then thinking "well I cant do that".

I certainly have hung out with the types of guys that could walk into a bar or pub and could go home with an attractive woman at the end of the night just by being themselves. They were as you might guess good looking, always smiling (with great teeth), athletic, and outgoing. But I never thought “I can’t do that.” At least not since maybe high school.
 

And the reason is that the women that like those guys aren’t going to be interested in a guy like me. Women that were into me liked guys that were smart and funny. And I knew that. I’m short and have never been particularly ambitious career wise. I’m not athletic, and as mentioned before struggle with social anxiety so also shy and introverted. But also smart and funny. And confident about being smart and funny. I knew dates would be good most of the time because I was a pretty good conversationalist and if she had a similar sense of humor as me, there would be some laughs. Even if we weren’t a match, which was most of the time. 
 

And that’s what I mean by adjusting your mindset. Your ex was interested in dating a guy like you. There are more women that will be too. They won’t be the same women that are interested in your player lifestyle friends, and that’s okay. But they don’t wear a sign, so the only way you’ll really be able to know is by asking them on a date. 

[NuevoYorko]

No, no one is here to mock you for your past trauma.   It might behoove you to realize that you're talking to a vast number of folks here you know NOTHING about.  I guarantee that there are many who have significant traumas of their own that they've been dealing with.   

Heck.  Among the gorgeous women you idolize and the non-beauties who you don't acknowledge are people who have experienced devastating events in their lives as well.

Maybe there is some value in looking beyond the surface.

[basil67]

My multi quote is a bit glitchy (or I'm doing it wrong!) so I'm going to do my best

>>my ex was wonderfully engaging but as much as I tried to force myself I could never really find her that physically attractive"<<

If someone is not beautiful, no matter how much we try, they will not become beautiful - so this is quite normal. However, all the other traits come to the forefront and we fall in love and are sexually attracted to the person, not the skin.   I ask you this: If you found a beautiful woman who ticks all the boxes and then she gets old and loses her looks...or heaven forbid her face or body was severely ruined in an accident are you going to stop wanting to be with her?  This isn't a rhetorical question - you're so hung up on looks that I feel you'd not be able to love them anymore.

 

>>Have you been to a party and been drawn to a particular person, perhaps the way they speak, do you end up evaluating if they are on your level before deciding if you are interested?<<

Absolutely.   But the 'level' thing is so instinctive that it's barely a blip in my mind.  I can see the why they draw in the people who are around them and it's really interesting to watch, but I'm more likely to go for his mate who may not be as vibrant and good looking, but is there having a laugh, has a good smile and clearly gets on well with others.   At the same time, I'm not going to be attracted to the guy who's looking like a misfit on the edge of the crowd.

 

>>Giving up is not really in my nature, perhaps you can understand why but I also will absolutely not settle either.<<

This is absolutely your prerogative.  But for the love of god, will you stop complaining about not being able to achieve an impossible task

Edited May 4 by basil67

[NuevoYorko]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Giving up is not really in my nature, perhaps you can understand why but I also will absolutely not settle either.

Unfortunately, since you absolutely will not grow or learn either, you are pretty much stuck exactly where you are now for another few decades.  Unless something moves you to expand your narrow mind along the way.   It could happen.  But those types of things are more and more difficult to come by as we grow older.  Unfortunately we become more ensconced in the primitive form we've been inhabiting for so many years.  Often we even become virtual caricatures of ourselves, with emphasis on our  most ridiculous and pathetic features.