Perspective

[ZA Dater]

23 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

@ZA Dater Nobody is going mock you for your past trauma. Most of us suspected you’ve had a tough go of life when you were younger. It explains a lot of your beliefs and worldview. However despite your experiences, your worldview and beliefs when it comes to love and relationships is wrong. 
 

I was diagnosed with a severe social anxiety disorder as well as agoraphobia in my mid-30s. Approaching a woman at a party, bar, club or broadly any social gathering was never going to happen.
 

All my romantic encounters were through people I knew (social circle, school, work etc.) and through online dating. I met my wife through an online dating site. As I stated before, I never consciously thought about whether they were “in my level”. If they met some minimum attractiveness level for me, they were an option. My dates and relationships ranged from people that would be considered conventionally attractive, to women that probably wouldn’t turn many heads, but were still attractive to me. Obviously most of those relationships didn’t last and many dates were one and done. Which is why those of us with experience downplay superficial traits. Mutual attraction is really not that meaningful in the long run. 
 

I certainly have hung out with the types of guys that could walk into a bar or pub and could go home with an attractive woman at the end of the night just by being themselves. They were as you might guess good looking, always smiling (with great teeth), athletic, and outgoing. But I never thought “I can’t do that.” At least not since maybe high school.
 

And the reason is that the women that like those guys aren’t going to be interested in a guy like me. Women that were into me liked guys that were smart and funny. And I knew that. I’m short and have never been particularly ambitious career wise. I’m not athletic, and as mentioned before struggle with social anxiety so also shy and introverted. But also smart and funny. And confident about being smart and funny. I knew dates would be good most of the time because I was a pretty good conversationalist and if she had a similar sense of humor as me, there would be some laughs. Even if we weren’t a match, which was most of the time. 
 

And that’s what I mean by adjusting your mindset. Your ex was interested in dating a guy like you. There are more women that will be too. They won’t be the same women that are interested in your player lifestyle friends, and that’s okay. But they don’t wear a sign, so the only way you’ll really be able to know is by asking them on a date. 

I can relate to quite a bit of what you shared, I find it difficult to interact with people I find attractive, I really need to force myself and like you I need to be confident in something I know I am good at, even then its very challenging.

For me not all attraction is based on looks, in fact most of the time its how someone communicates with me that grabs me. Yes, there needs to be some physical attraction too. If someone has poor eye contact and does not really engage in a conversation, their physical appearance is irrelevant to me.

Inherently the problem I have had is OLD and that simply does not work for me at all, irrespective of the fact I met my ex on Bumble but one success in 10 years cannot be defined as success. 

What is interesting is 'miss three weeks to reply" is now communicating with me more consistently and by this these are not short superficial text msgs which is nice. In fact she would have joined me at an event had she not been travelling so there is some positive on the face of it. You are right I need to perhaps be more bold but that is challenging because there is so much negative baggage I carry around, I do not really need another rejection to add to that. The risk is I ask her out and then I land up with nothing, much like what happened when I tried to ask the single mother on a date, that imploded badly.

I highly doubt she is still single so that is another inherent problem.

 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

one success in 10 years cannot be defined as success. 

In the 10 years since then, how many women have you been attracted to AND asked out on a proper date?  

[ZA Dater]

On 5/6/2024 at 12:07 AM, basil67 said:

In the 10 years since then, how many women have you been attracted to AND asked out on a proper date?  

Well a few but most of them have not been single and those who were showed zero interest whatsoever. So yes its a loaded question.

Besides awkwardness kicks in and when I do ask it truly is one of those cringe worthy scenes from a movie best forgotten. Better to just be me, give attention and be as outgoing as I can. That's about the best I can do, even that is the limit of the confidence I have. Sad but true.

At least there are people around me in loving relationships and they are happy so I guess I can take solace in that.

[basil67]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Well a few but most of them have not been single and those who were showed zero interest whatsoever. So yes its a loaded question.

It's not a loaded question.  You frequently talk of being rejected, so I want to know just how many times you've actively asked a woman out and been rejected.  What is a few?  2?  7?  20?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 7 by basil67

[Weezy1973]

55 minutes ago, basil67 said:

It's not a loaded question.  You frequently talk of being rejected, so I want to know just how many times you've actively asked a woman out and been rejected.  What is a few?  2?  7?  20?

And not including the girl from when you were in high school…

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

And not including the girl from when you were in high school…

Not enough is the answer, there is never any real interest and obviously I cant date people who are not single and I hardly ever meet single people which perhaps is not too unsurprising as by late 30's most people are paired up. 

Barring OLD its very difficult to actually meet single people so that is another fundamental problem. Have spent some time thinking as to what I actually want in terms of a relationship versus what is actually gettable and the two are frankly miles apart. 

My problem is there is no obvious interest from people I find attractive, there has never been any interest. Like this latest person, I really enjoy her company but its made quite clear to me by a mutual friend that I am not good enough and she'd never be interested (she is probably dating someone else anyway) so this does nothing for someone who already has low confidence. I'll see what I can make out of this but flat out asking her on a date is probably not going to happen unfortunately, getting her to meet for a simple coffee has proven to be pretty much impossible.

One thing I know to be true, its near impossible to create interest where there is none. Unfortunately.

[Weezy1973]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Not enough is the answer…

Right, so a lot of us having been saying that you have to challenge your own narratives / beliefs if you want to start moving forward. Here’s two narratives that you repeat consistently that you should be challenging and acknowledge are wrong:

 

1. That you’ve experienced a lot of rejections through the years. By your own admission you’ve very rarely actually asked a woman that you’re attracted to out on a date, so by definition there can’t have been that many rejections. You use this wrong narrative to defend your position to never ask out any women moving forward because the pain from all those (non-existent) rejections is just too intense. If you acknowledge your fear of rejection doesn’t in fact come from your experiences, it may actually help you figure out where it actually comes from. And then challenge yourself.

 

2. That you have no relationship experience and are a virgin. Neither of these things are true, so even if you believe that no woman would be interested in a man with no experience (even that’s not true, but anyways), since you have relationship experience, that doesn’t apply to you anyways. 

[NuevoYorko]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Not enough is the answer,

Why won't you simply answer the question?   The poster asked for a ballpark figure; HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU ACTUALLY ASKED A WOMAN OUT AND BEEN REJECTED? .  

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Right, so a lot of us having been saying that you have to challenge your own narratives / beliefs if you want to start moving forward. Here’s two narratives that you repeat consistently that you should be challenging and acknowledge are wrong:

 

1. That you’ve experienced a lot of rejections through the years. By your own admission you’ve very rarely actually asked a woman that you’re attracted to out on a date, so by definition there can’t have been that many rejections. You use this wrong narrative to defend your position to never ask out any women moving forward because the pain from all those (non-existent) rejections is just too intense. If you acknowledge your fear of rejection doesn’t in fact come from your experiences, it may actually help you figure out where it actually comes from. And then challenge yourself.

 

2. That you have no relationship experience and are a virgin. Neither of these things are true, so even if you believe that no woman would be interested in a man with no experience (even that’s not true, but anyways), since you have relationship experience, that doesn’t apply to you anyways. 

End of the day I cannot even find anyone single I am interested in so it's all pretty irrelevant, never mind the fact when I do they never show any degree of interest again I rarely find anyone.

I'll just get on with life, if by some miracle someone I find attractive shows some actual obvious interest I'll ask her out but I wont be holding my breath seeing as it's never happened before. (Dating site date's are irrelevant). If that doesn't happen well so be it, many others get it right so I'll take cold comfort in that.

I am poor at relationships, hence I have only had one in nearly forty years on this planet. Could I realistically be good enough for another one, lack of confidence would suggest not.

The choices that are workable for me, every single day tell myself I have no interest in dating, this has been affective for a while and it's why it's been easier to get off OLD apps for good. Tell myself I am unattractive and undesirable, again this sort of works because it's backed up by a lack of any physically attractive matches.

Go to some contrived singles evening, I'd rather stay home and do anything else, most probably work.

Find people I find attractive and interesting and just try do some form of friendzone. 

Bury myself in some project or other to distract myself. Works fairly well some of the time.

Friend of mine got engaged, very happy for him so there is other people's positive relationships around me. Live vicariously I suppose.

 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

Why won't you simply answer the question?   The poster asked for a ballpark figure; HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU ACTUALLY ASKED A WOMAN OUT AND BEEN REJECTED? .  

Ten odd times. Considering how rarely I find anyone of interest that's a fair number. 

[basil67]

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

but its made quite clear to me by a mutual friend that I am not good enough and she'd never be interested

I know you speak this way about women who you're not interested in, but I don't believe for one moment that this you are quoting her words verbatim.  Instead, I believe you're dramatising her words as part of your own pity party. 

The fact that you don't find many people attractive does not make asking women out ten odd times a fair number.  It's a very small number and doesn't deserve to be spoken of in terms of always being rejected.   Besides that, the fact that you're trying to punch so far above does mean that you have a much higher chance of being rejected...and this is what you choose for yourself.

If a person was unemployed and only applied for rare jobs which were above their qualifications, would you take them seriously when they say they are "always rejected" when they can't even get an interview?   It's really no different

 

[NuevoYorko]

18 minutes ago, basil67 said:

 

The fact that you don't find many people attractive does not make asking women out ten odd times a fair number.  It's a very small number and doesn't deserve to be spoken of in terms of always being rejected.  

 

No kidding.   OP's first post here was April of 2015.   He was talking (actually, whining) about a woman he'd met a year prior and actually had asked out.   So, assuming that she was the first woman he ever asked out - he's managed about 1 try per year for the past nine years.   And he's managed to translate that into 7,569 posts about how unfair life has been to him!   

 

OP - how about dropping the pity party.   You DO NOT try.  You do little to nothing except snivel about not having a supermodel girlfriend. 

If you actually start trying to date, trying to get to know somebody, trying to learn or grow, by all means keep on posting and asking for help.  

But if you just want to feel sorry for yourself in public - well, let me tell you that there is probably zero supermodels or even average women on the planet who would give the time of day to any man who would carry on like this for NINE FREAKING YEARS.   

Read the thread.  It's like groundhog day.   

[basil67]

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

Read the thread.  It's like groundhog day.   

Indeed.  @ZA Dater have you ever looked back at your 7000 odd posts and recognised that it's all the same stuff, over and over and over again?   At what point will you realise that the answers aren't here?

[ZA Dater]

12 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

No kidding.   OP's first post here was April of 2015.   He was talking (actually, whining) about a woman he'd met a year prior and actually had asked out.   So, assuming that she was the first woman he ever asked out - he's managed about 1 try per year for the past nine years.   And he's managed to translate that into 7,569 posts about how unfair life has been to him!   

 

OP - how about dropping the pity party.   You DO NOT try.  You do little to nothing except snivel about not having a supermodel girlfriend. 

If you actually start trying to date, trying to get to know somebody, trying to learn or grow, by all means keep on posting and asking for help.  

But if you just want to feel sorry for yourself in public - well, let me tell you that there is probably zero supermodels or even average women on the planet who would give the time of day to any man who would carry on like this for NINE FREAKING YEARS.   

Read the thread.  It's like groundhog day.   

Number sounds about right. Rejection is rejection however you choose to frame it. Does not matter if its once or 20 times a negative outcome is a negative outcome. Nor do I want a supermodel GF either, someone who looks after themselves and has an active lifestyle would be fine.

Its laughable, trying to get to know somebody, who tries to get to know me? Nobody is the answer which I guess is their choice much like its mine to not be interested in people who I do not find interesting. 

By the way that person was not the first I asked out but that is irrelevant.

[ZA Dater]

13 hours ago, basil67 said:

I know you speak this way about women who you're not interested in, but I don't believe for one moment that this you are quoting her words verbatim.  Instead, I believe you're dramatising her words as part of your own pity party. 

The fact that you don't find many people attractive does not make asking women out ten odd times a fair number.  It's a very small number and doesn't deserve to be spoken of in terms of always being rejected.   Besides that, the fact that you're trying to punch so far above does mean that you have a much higher chance of being rejected...and this is what you choose for yourself.

If a person was unemployed and only applied for rare jobs which were above their qualifications, would you take them seriously when they say they are "always rejected" when they can't even get an interview?   It's really no different

Actually that was made very clear to me and this person is a very close confidant of mine, probably more like an older sister. I think it is a fair number because you would expect statistically to actually have some degree of success.  I love how suddenly dating is equated to in terms of qualifications, which actually backs up my point, why should I bother with people who lack intellectual ability and are apathetic, I am neither of those so why would I consider someone who is? Oh yea because they find me attractive I should fall over my feet in excitement.

Frankly I have decided I'd rather not date at all than force myself to date people I am not interested in. Likewise I'd rather not even ask someone on a date where I can see there is zero interest, there is greater value by simply as my friend says "just be her friend",  its all I  am good for anyway.

Thanks.

[FredEire]

9 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Number sounds about right. Rejection is rejection however you choose to frame it. Does not matter if its once or 20 times a negative outcome is a negative outcome. Nor do I want a supermodel GF either, someone who looks after themselves and has an active lifestyle would be fine.

Its laughable, trying to get to know somebody, who tries to get to know me? Nobody is the answer which I guess is their choice much like its mine to not be interested in people who I do not find interesting. 

By the way that person was not the first I asked out but that is irrelevant.

You know how many times I've been rejected? Hundreds probably, I've lost count. And you know what? When I was a teenager I cared deeply, but now I couldn't give a toss. If that person has no interest in me, oh well I tried my best, next!

It has no bearing on my relationship with myself any more, because I've been through it and learned it really has no impact on my life whatsoever if I didn't even get to the stage of knowing a person. It's just your extremely fragile ego that keeps you from even trying. Rejection is only failure if you view it that way. I view it as success because I tried and if the girl I fancied wasn't into me well hey that's life, what can I do.

This is a great scene from one of my favourite movies, I'd suggest watching it.

A loser is someone who never tries. I have a lot more admiration for people who try and fail over and over again than those who don't and moan about it.

 

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, FredEire said:

You know how many times I've been rejected? Hundreds probably, I've lost count. And you know what? When I was a teenager I cared deeply, but now I couldn't give a toss. If that person has no interest in me, oh well I tried my best, next!

It has no bearing on my relationship with myself any more, because I've been through it and learned it really has no impact on my life whatsoever if I didn't even get to the stage of knowing a person. It's just your extremely fragile ego that keeps you from even trying. Rejection is only failure if you view it that way. I view it as success because I tried and if the girl I fancied wasn't into me well hey that's life, what can I do.

This is a great scene from one of my favourite movies, I'd suggest watching it.

A loser is someone who never tries. I have a lot more admiration for people who try and fail over and over again than those who don't and moan about it.

 

Well if did something over and over and never got a positive result I'd actually stop doing that and simply move on. I've tried enough and as one poster recently put it "its your fault for wanting to punch above your weight" and maybe there is some truth to that. I sat down, decided what I want in life versus what I need in life and frankly I do not need a partner and I especially do not need one I am not attracted to and only dating because she is the only person who expressed some interest. 

I look around me, the people who have success with the sort of people I am attracted to are vastly different to me in every single way so in essence I was doomed to fail before I even started, I went on OLD with the hope I could attract someone with a modicum of intelligence, class, attractive looks and intellect but that is not the case quite clearly. 

The only viable option for me is to focus on other things. There are those who are beyond help and I am one of those, thanks to everyone for their advice and trying to assist, it is appreciated. I watched  a really great video where confidence is tied to dating success and some dating success will give some confidence and so the cycle goes, for me I have never had that confidence so there has never been anything to work with.

Perhaps the greatest lesson I have learnt is its impossible to change someones mind, if you are not attractive to them, you will never ever ever be attractive no matter what you do and ALWAYS I have been in that position. All it gets me is the pity party "oh shame nobody likes him let me talk to him to make him feel better". 

I'll fight another day that is the war of life, I'll take whatever positive and can and live vicariously though others who have the relationship success I so badly wanted but will simply never ever find. When I meet people I really like, I will not get carried away instead like I have done for years simply tell myself "no way will she choose me over any of her other choices" and enjoy the conversation for what it is. Wish I'd been told I was ugly as kid, it'd have saved me a lot of time and money trying to "punch above my weight"

Thanks again.

Edited May 9 by ZA Dater

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Wish I'd been told I was ugly as kid, it'd have saved me a lot of time and money trying to "punch above my weight"

Ugly people find love, sex and relationships all the time. They’re not relegated to the island of misfit toys. But only punching above your weight will guarantee failure, and subconsciously I suspect this is by design. Also being a disciple of Groucho Marx,  who wouldn’t want to belong to a club that accepted people like himself as a member, doesn’t help. 
 

And yay, you get to stay in your comfort zone. Alone and complaining. 

[OKtoday]

You can create any life you want, but you really need to stop telling this life story. You are hanging on to it for dear life.

Let it go… stop repeating it. 

This has all become a handicap and a blanket you have safely wrapped yourself in. 

Create a new life, find a new way, write a brand new story! 
 

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Well if did something over and over and never got a positive result I'd actually stop doing that and simply move on. I've tried enough and as one poster recently put it "its your fault for wanting to punch above your weight" and maybe there is some truth to that. I sat down, decided what I want in life versus what I need in life and frankly I do not need a partner and I especially do not need one I am not attracted to and only dating because she is the only person who expressed some interest. 

I look around me, the people who have success with the sort of people I am attracted to are vastly different to me in every single way so in essence I was doomed to fail before I even started, I went on OLD with the hope I could attract someone with a modicum of intelligence, class, attractive looks and intellect but that is not the case quite clearly. 

The only viable option for me is to focus on other things. There are those who are beyond help and I am one of those, thanks to everyone for their advice and trying to assist, it is appreciated. I watched  a really great video where confidence is tied to dating success and some dating success will give some confidence and so the cycle goes, for me I have never had that confidence so there has never been anything to work with.

Perhaps the greatest lesson I have learnt is its impossible to change someones mind, if you are not attractive to them, you will never ever ever be attractive no matter what you do and ALWAYS I have been in that position. All it gets me is the pity party "oh shame nobody likes him let me talk to him to make him feel better". 

I'll fight another day that is the war of life, I'll take whatever positive and can and live vicariously though others who have the relationship success I so badly wanted but will simply never ever find. When I meet people I really like, I will not get carried away instead like I have done for years simply tell myself "no way will she choose me over any of her other choices" and enjoy the conversation for what it is. Wish I'd been told I was ugly as kid, it'd have saved me a lot of time and money trying to "punch above my weight"

Thanks again.

No, in the thread the conclusion was you tried 20 times in almost 40 years of life, that's not even close to enough.

Success will come when you've failed enough times to not give a s*** about failure any more, have a laugh and just enjoy the ride. But you say you've decided to just roll over and die so good luck with that.

Edited May 9 by FredEire

[ZA Dater]

38 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Ugly people find love, sex and relationships all the time. They’re not relegated to the island of misfit toys. But only punching above your weight will guarantee failure, and subconsciously I suspect this is by design. Also being a disciple of Groucho Marx,  who wouldn’t want to belong to a club that accepted people like himself as a member, doesn’t help. 
 

And yay, you get to stay in your comfort zone. Alone and complaining. 

Unfortunately for me life is fundamentally about punching above my weight, looking for the most difficult challenge I can find and yes taking some losses but also making some progress. I'd rather fail at taking on the seemingly impossible than succeed at something easy. I have absolutely no desire to date someone for the sake of doing so, if that works for others good for them but it will never ever work for me. Much like I could never date someone apathetic either. 

If I have to never get anywhere at dating for wanting to date people who I find attractive, who have some degree of wow about them then so be it, I'd rather fail wanting something I want then succeed at something I do not.

 

[ZA Dater]

30 minutes ago, FredEire said:

No, in the thread the conclusion was you tried 20 times in almost 40 years of life, that's not even close to enough.

Success will come when you've failed enough times to not give a s*** about failure any more, have a laugh and just enjoy the ride. But you say you've decided to just roll over and die so good luck with that.

More than enough to determine a pattern of no success and further than that no interest ever from people I am interested in and frankly no I am not going to date people for the sake of it because well they might like me and then I must bend over backward and compromise, for what? What would be the purpose in that? 

There is nothing i have enjoyed about dating, absolutely nothing at all simply because I can never date people I am interested in to begin with, there is nothing to laugh about but then again my humour is dry so its lost on most people. I'll never be good enough for the people I find attractive, people who have endless options but again such is life. 

By the logic here,  ask anyone out irrespective if they show any interest. Sure way to build confidence that. Sure is a good way to get endlessly rejected. 

In short I simply do not care anymore. I'll do what can get me a modicum of what I actually want because sure as heck as some people have taken great pains to explain "well you know yo should date at your level" which is like telling a street kid he should never aspire to anything more and frankly is straight out of thinking which would do Karl Marx proud.

For me I guess I can consider dating a success in the sense I have met people I would happily date, people who made the time I spent with them amazing, people who made me think how nice it would be to spend more time with them, people who I found interesting, people who communicated well, people I would have slept with, people I would have wanted to experience life with, people who showed warmth toward me and people who have interesting lives and people I would want to share with and support.  In short these people made me realise how nice it could be. 

 

 

Edited May 9 by ZA Dater

[ZA Dater]

35 minutes ago, OKtoday said:

You can create any life you want, but you really need to stop telling this life story. You are hanging on to it for dear life.

Let it go… stop repeating it. 

This has all become a handicap and a blanket you have safely wrapped yourself in. 

Create a new life, find a new way, write a brand new story! 
 

Am done with dating, nothing I can do will ever get me anywhere near dating the people I find attractive, this latest wallop of disappointment is enough. Once again proof I am not good enough. 

The novel I am writing is my opportunity to live vicariously through words and that is enough. My only handicap is being severely unattractive in seemingly every single aspect, well at least to the people I find attractive. 

Such is life, the choice is to either care or to not care, I spent too long doing the former.

[basil67]

 

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Actually that was made very clear to me and this person is a very close confidant of mine, probably more like an older sister.

If your close confident did quote the previous woman verbatim, then she is not your friend.  She's a mean girl who doesn't even have the respect for you to use some tact. 

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I think it is a fair number because you would expect statistically to actually have some degree of success.  I love how suddenly dating is equated to in terms of qualifications, which actually backs up my point, why should I bother with people who lack intellectual ability and are apathetic, I am neither of those so why would I consider someone who is? Oh yea because they find me attractive I should fall over my feet in excitement.

If you believing this is a fair number, I guess you can carry on with whatever help you sleep at night.  

Why do you say "suddenly" dating is about terms of qualifications.  It's exactly what we mean when we talk of in our 7000 pages of explaining leagues and punching above. Throughout history, people have been marrying those who are of the same level.  You think a gentleman was going to marry a kitchen girl?  And why would a lady look at the gardener?  Sure, both may find the other attractive for some forbidden sex, but there'd never be a relationship.  

Why would ZA Dater consider dating someone who was not pretty enough, not slim enough, can't hold a conversation, not smart enough?  And why would the women who are gorgeous, eloquent, social and smart consider dating you?  From what you say, the only thing you can match them on is intellect, and even then you're book-smart, not socially smart.   

Of course it's about qualifications.

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Frankly I have decided I'd rather not date at all than force myself to date people I am not interested in. Likewise I'd rather not even ask someone on a date where I can see there is zero interest, there is greater value by simply as my friend says "just be her friend",  its all I  am good for anyway.

No, you're not actually good for being a friend, because your "friendship" is about you basking in the glow of a woman who you can't have.  Real friendships don't discriminate by looks or weight.  Real friendships also exist even when one party can't talk on one of your favourite topics.....you just find other things in common to talk about.  And save that specific topic for the ones who can meet you on it. 

For what it's worth, my interests are not terribly popular things and I get little interest.  So I connect with my friends over things we do have in common and I find targeted FB groups or MeetUp meetings to share my interests with those who get it.    

When you start becoming friends with men and women [who you're not physically attracted to] and you can enjoy them even though they don't want to talk politics and world affairs then I will reconsider my view.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

some people have taken great pains to explain "well you know yo should date at your level"

I don't remember anybody telling you that you should date at your level.  We've simply said that you'll have no success dating above.

And then you will reply "ah, it's back to the leagues again".  And we'll say "Of course it's about leagues"

And then you'll say "but I don't want to date at my level"   

Rinse and repeat.

For 7000 pages