Perspective

[NuevoYorko]

What really works for good relationships is if the people involved are looking for someone to share life with, where each person enhances the other's experience.

OP is not alone in viewing a potential romantic partner as a "thing" to "obtain."   I believe that he, along with every other person who looks at relationships this way are completely missing the boat to a pathetic degree.   Even the ultra rich and / or beautiful who can "get" "something" they WANT at the drop of a hat.   I believe that all of those people are probably living lives that I would find miserably superficial.

But, I do tend to project.   Folks like the OP might be as happy as they can be once they "get" their human thing.

From my perspective, it is actually amusing that the OP keeps harping about how "settling" would be worse than anything.  From where I am viewing, it appears that he would "settle" for just about anything as long as the presentation was on point, with all the superficial bells and whistles in place.

Truly a doll or robot would be ideal.

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

What really works for good relationships is if the people involved are looking for someone to share life with, where each person enhances the other's experience.

OP is not alone in viewing a potential romantic partner as a "thing" to "obtain."   I believe that he, along with every other person who looks at relationships this way are completely missing the boat to a pathetic degree.   Even the ultra rich and / or beautiful who can "get" "something" they WANT at the drop of a hat.   I believe that all of those people are probably living lives that I would find miserably superficial.

But, I do tend to project.   Folks like the OP might be as happy as they can be once they "get" their human thing.

From my perspective, it is actually amusing that the OP keeps harping about how "settling" would be worse than anything.  From where I am viewing, it appears that he would "settle" for just about anything as long as the presentation was on point, with all the superficial bells and whistles in place.

Truly a doll or robot would be ideal.

There was a poster on here Versacehottie who doesn't seem to be around much anymore who talked a lot about the ego in relationships.

This seems relevant in the case of OP as they aren't seeking a life partner but someone to validate their entire existence.

Unfortunately as he sees himself as a piece of dog doo-doo in human form, no woman is going to change this as much as he thinks she will.

The doubts are already there and are all to do with his dislike of himself, no external influence will make this go away and until it's addressed they would continue to eat away at him even if he was to meet this ideal woman. The answers never come from without but within. A relationship can enhance your life but it sure ain't going to fix it.

[BaileyB]

59 minutes ago, FredEire said:

This seems relevant in the case of OP as they aren't seeking a life partner but someone to validate their entire existence.

I remember feeling this way when I was younger and still single as many of my friends started to pair off. I thought that finding a partner would provide validation among my friends and family - 

And then, when I found my first relationship I realized how very little anyone cared. The fact that I brought someone to a social gathering mattered little to others because their relationship was with me - and they already respected and loved me. While they were happy for me, they all have their own lives and they didn’t actually care about my relationship status…

[FredEire]

5 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I remember feeling this way when I was younger and still single as many of my friends started to pair off. I thought that finding a partner would provide validation among my friends and family - 

And then, when I found my first relationship I realized how very little anyone cared. The fact that I brought someone to a social gathering mattered little to others because their relationship was with me - and they already respected and loved me. While they were happy for me, they all have their own lives and they didn’t actually care about my relationship status…

Yep, even if you were going out with Scarlett Johannsen OP you would continue to be you. The ego boost would only last a matter of weeks or months, sex would become routine and you'd be faced with the reality that you're in a relationship with a woman that, beauty aside, is a lot like any other woman.

At that point the question would be if you were emotionally mature and capable of continuing to grow and develop with her and on the evidence of this thread the answer is a clear no. That's why people aren't attracted to people who are emotionally immature and pity themselves, they don't want to get into that mess.

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, FredEire said:

What does it work for? Having sex with multiple women? Apparently you don't want that so I'm not sure why you consider it success. A PUA lifestyle doesn't work as well for having a healthy stable relationship, isn't that what you want? Or maybe what you really want is to be a playboy but you don't want to admit it?

It works in the sense they have options they actually want to pursue versus having to make the best of whoever will like them. I generally try to not regret very little but I do regret not making more of a move on someone when I had the chance, the very reason I did not was in my judgement I wanted to build a connection over time, which once again proved incorrect.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Did you read the study on “aspirational dating”? It’s basically explains why many people don’t succeed at online dating. Most people are aspiring to date someone out of their league, and because the options seem endless, they just keep searching. It explains pretty much every frustration both women and men have with online dating. 
 

Sure, but that would require you working on yourself to rise to the level of the women you want to date. Which you refuse to do. You can’t lament being “ugly”, socially awkward, no confidence etc. and also think beautiful women with lots of options would want to date you. Why would they want to date below their level? You sure don’t. 

There is nothing to work on, I wont ever have any confidence because as one highly regarded dating coach mentions confidence is only attained from success and if you have none there is no chance of success and it becomes a never ending circle. I am great deal smarter than many of these charismatic guys but it counts for zero and I am better spoken than many and again it counts for zero. 

I'll just carry on being who I am, if people like that, if not I simply do not care but I am not going to go out of my way to be someone I am not in the hope it might attract someone.

[NuevoYorko]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

no woman is going to change this as much as he thinks she will.

No woman is going to change it AT ALL.  One reason, of course, is that he is not going to have that opportunity as he will not ask anyone out that meets his criteria.

The other reason, sadly, is that he won't be able to function in a real relationship where a person with all of their facets will be expecting to get personal needs met with him.   

Hi just sees the one dimension, and thinks that if he "GETS" one of those "THINGS" he will be "HAPPY."   He has no idea what it looks like to share the ups and downs of life with another human being, regardless of what they look like or how bubbly of a personality they have with virtual strangers.

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, Foxhall said:

the novel perhaps could be what might open doors for you,

Did you share this novel with any of the ladies that you got somewhat close to,

If you meet someone you sense even a remote connection with dont be shy about sharing your thoughts on this novel, ask them are they interested in reading it,

I dont believe I could write a novel- maybe a short story,

the lady the one Ive seen twice in the last ten years- I asked her to marry me last month- 

I thought that might at least give me closure- but a direct answer is not forthcoming.

I took it as a gain she has not rejected it out of hand- more along the lines of is she going to change her life again at this point,

but Im writing short stories and sharing them with her- she is my only audience- I dont know if Ill achieve the dream but all I can do is find a way to keep it possible,

we have to adapt find a way to give oneself a chance. things are unlikely to go to plan.

The novel does not really do much in terms of getting people attracted to me, again because it would seem reading is a dying past time among many people, much like any sort of interest in world affairs is. There are some fundamental examples of absolute apathy in the world and these seemingly are deemed to be normal. I have shared these this novel with some and sure some take a superficial interest of sorts.

My advice to you is sit down and just write, write anything, for me its been one of the best way to feel better and in some ways it can cleanse the mind. 

The bold is profound and true, sadly it would seem according to mos its preferable to just throw up ones hand's and simply just take whoever will date/marry/sleep. 

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

There was a poster on here Versacehottie who doesn't seem to be around much anymore who talked a lot about the ego in relationships.

This seems relevant in the case of OP as they aren't seeking a life partner but someone to validate their entire existence.

Unfortunately as he sees himself as a piece of dog doo-doo in human form, no woman is going to change this as much as he thinks she will.

The doubts are already there and are all to do with his dislike of himself, no external influence will make this go away and until it's addressed they would continue to eat away at him even if he was to meet this ideal woman. The answers never come from without but within. A relationship can enhance your life but it sure ain't going to fix it.

Not at all, I do not need to validate my entire existence, I know my worth and equally I know what I can and cannot do, I am very realistic about that, I have been on dates where I have been very forthcoming about that, never saw any of those people again which was frankly no loss. My last relationship, one without mutual attraction did enhance my life significantly so I have a fair idea of what is possible and likewise I have a fair idea of the downsides too but one thing having the difficult life I have had has given me is phenomenal strength, I've taken a barrage of criticism here and for the most part its been water of a ducks back, everyday I deal with very difficult people, impossible situation and I weather the storm.

As a partner I'd walk next to that person till the end of the earth and do everything I could for them. I've seen the absolute worst of life and I have seen the absolute best of life so while you may think I sit in some tomb I've seen a lot, experienced a lot, met a lot of people. I am positive I could enhance someones life because if i am ever going to do the relationship thing again I am going to commit fully to it.

[ZA Dater]

26 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Yep, even if you were going out with Scarlett Johannsen OP you would continue to be you. The ego boost would only last a matter of weeks or months, sex would become routine and you'd be faced with the reality that you're in a relationship with a woman that, beauty aside, is a lot like any other woman.

At that point the question would be if you were emotionally mature and capable of continuing to grow and develop with her and on the evidence of this thread the answer is a clear no. That's why people aren't attracted to people who are emotionally immature and pity themselves, they don't want to get into that mess.

And I am not attracted to apathetic poor spoken people who cannot have a conversation and I am not attracted to people who live their life as if stuck at some level without aspiring to be more. Guess what attracted me about this latest person, yes she is tall but she is smart, communicates supremely well, has diverse interests, has an interest in the world around her and actually has created a life. Nobody is perfect and I am certainly not by any measure.

Ego does not feature here, I have seen the disaster that results when ego drives decisions, I have seen the mess created when decisions are made on emotions rather than facts. 

[ZA Dater]

41 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I remember feeling this way when I was younger and still single as many of my friends started to pair off. I thought that finding a partner would provide validation among my friends and family - 

And then, when I found my first relationship I realized how very little anyone cared. The fact that I brought someone to a social gathering mattered little to others because their relationship was with me - and they already respected and loved me. While they were happy for me, they all have their own lives and they didn’t actually care about my relationship status…

You were indeed very fortunate , try turning up at events solo for twenty odd years and see the questions which get asked. When I was dating, people at social events really liked her and it was great to bring someone into this rather strange world I live and she fitted in perfectly with people who would intimidate many. 

Me, I liked it because it was nice to share events with someone, that was all that actually mattered to me and yes there was not much physical attraction it was still great to share experiences. A lot of why I wanted to date in the first place was to simply share and not do everything on my own.

 

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

What really works for good relationships is if the people involved are looking for someone to share life with, where each person enhances the other's experience.

OP is not alone in viewing a potential romantic partner as a "thing" to "obtain."   I believe that he, along with every other person who looks at relationships this way are completely missing the boat to a pathetic degree.   Even the ultra rich and / or beautiful who can "get" "something" they WANT at the drop of a hat.   I believe that all of those people are probably living lives that I would find miserably superficial.

But, I do tend to project.   Folks like the OP might be as happy as they can be once they "get" their human thing.

From my perspective, it is actually amusing that the OP keeps harping about how "settling" would be worse than anything.  From where I am viewing, it appears that he would "settle" for just about anything as long as the presentation was on point, with all the superficial bells and whistles in place.

Truly a doll or robot would be ideal.

Yes and dating people I do not find attractive adds nothing my life or experience that is the bottom line and when I say attractive I mean overall not just physically. What you believe about those people is untrue but you can keep believing that if you makes you feel better.

I wish it were as easy as finding "presentation".....alas it is not. What is quite easy actually is see someone attractive and think "she'd never date me/she is not single" and I walk on by, my life not impacted, what is much much harder is to chat to someone, really find them engaging, really like their company and then the mind starts to think "what if " and the idea of possibility take root and false positive beliefs arrive which of course end up in massive disappointment when reality of not being good enough kicks in. But for a moment for the time spent with that person, it feels really good, in that moment everything works but reality and pragmatism go right out the door. 

[Weezy1973]

32 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

There is nothing to work on,

So then aspirational dating is not for you right? Because to aspire to something better, you actually have to put the work in. You’re not interested in putting in any work so what you’re really hoping for is the equivalent of winning the lottery. Getting a windfall without having to earn it. As someone that works in finance, I’m sure you realize how terrible a retirement plan hoping to win the lottery is.

[Alpacalia]

Maybe instead of talking about yourself religiously, you could help others?

[ZA Dater]

15 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

So then aspirational dating is not for you right? Because to aspire to something better, you actually have to put the work in. You’re not interested in putting in any work so what you’re really hoping for is the equivalent of winning the lottery. Getting a windfall without having to earn it. As someone that works in finance, I’m sure you realize how terrible a retirement plan hoping to win the lottery is.

I've done the work. Its painful going on dates and having to tailor myself to the person sitting in front of me rather than being myself. This last person was the last roll of the dice because I told myself if considering how good the interaction was, how much common ground there is, if all of this considered it did not work then I'd simply just give up because its so rare I find good interaction and common ground but alas the old lack of attraction clearly scuppered the idea. 

Its a pretty much inevitable conclusion, the only person I was fooling was myself to believe it would end in any other way when there are no other positive outcomes to really look back for inspiration and confidence. 

Mate, I have sat around people who cheat on ladies, date two at the same time, gossip about who sleeps with who in frankly unflattering way, look at ladies as merely an end to get sex, these people date with ease, connect with ease and this behaviour is apparently OK. If I walk away from dating having stuck to my own moral standards, not done anything I regret which has hurt others then I can walk away with a fairly clear mind. 

In know what I can do, I know the person I am, I know what I am good at but the reality is none of this matters to anyone but me. I know how good it feels to spend time around someone I really like and just be me, I'll never know how good it must be date someone with there being real physical attraction, I'll never know how it feels to be loved and to love. 

I've got value in my own eyes just none in the eyes of those I find attractive. That is life.

[FredEire]

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I've done the work. Its painful going on dates and having to tailor myself to the person sitting in front of me rather than being myself. This last person was the last roll of the dice because I told myself if considering how good the interaction was, how much common ground there is, if all of this considered it did not work then I'd simply just give up because its so rare I find good interaction and common ground but alas the old lack of attraction clearly scuppered the idea. 

Its a pretty much inevitable conclusion, the only person I was fooling was myself to believe it would end in any other way when there are no other positive outcomes to really look back for inspiration and confidence. 

Mate, I have sat around people who cheat on ladies, date two at the same time, gossip about who sleeps with who in frankly unflattering way, look at ladies as merely an end to get sex, these people date with ease, connect with ease and this behaviour is apparently OK. If I walk away from dating having stuck to my own moral standards, not done anything I regret which has hurt others then I can walk away with a fairly clear mind. 

In know what I can do, I know the person I am, I know what I am good at but the reality is none of this matters to anyone but me. I know how good it feels to spend time around someone I really like and just be me, I'll never know how good it must be date someone with there being real physical attraction, I'll never know how it feels to be loved and to love. 

I've got value in my own eyes just none in the eyes of those I find attractive. That is life.

Two things here.

You have very, very clearly not put in the work.

You seem to equate success as in getting laid with the behaviour being ok. Which says a lot.

[ZA Dater]

44 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Two things here.

You have very, very clearly not put in the work.

You seem to equate success as in getting laid with the behaviour being ok. Which says a lot.

Experiencing mutual attraction I'd say is success. Having someone express some interest must be quite nice especially when it's actually someone you want to spend time with. 

As I say it's fine.

[FredEire]

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Experiencing mutual attraction I'd say is success. Having someone express some interest must be quite nice especially when it's actually someone you want to spend time with. 

As I say it's fine.

As I've said earlier in the thread that's just a fantasy idea. If you experienced mutual attraction and it ended there you wouldn't walk away happy, your heart would be shattered into a million pieces because you'd be so invested in it.

Which might be a positive in the positive in the long run, but you live in a fantasy world where you think you and this desirable woman like eachother and then you can walk away and die a happy man. Life isn't like that, but you don't know until you actually experience it.

I think you'd much rather live in blissful bitter ignorance.

[basil67]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

but one thing having the difficult life I have had has given me is phenomenal strength, I've taken a barrage of criticism here and for the most part its been water of a ducks back,

Hmm..."water off a ducks back".   This explains why in all the years of posting you've done here, you've learned absolutely nothing from our advice.  You've learned so little that you constantly misquote and misinterpret so many things we've written.

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

if all of this considered it did not work then I'd simply just give up because its so rare I find good interaction and common ground but alas the old lack of attraction clearly scuppered the idea. 

It's not just about attraction.  Have you ever considered that she may have been tailoring the conversation to you and your interests out of courtesy?   As you've discovered yourself, this is what one has to do when they are with another and the conversation doesn't flow so easily.  

I daresay that some of the women who've been interested in dating you further weren't aware that you were tailoring conversations to their interests just to keep the conversation going. 

Edited May 10 by basil67

[NuevoYorko]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Me, I liked it because it was nice to share events with someone, that was all that actually mattered to me and yes there was not much physical attraction it was still great to share experiences. A lot of why I wanted to date in the first place was to simply share and not do everything on my own.

Why did you break your rule and "settle" this one time for a woman that you did not feel attracted to?    You've waffled quite a bit between whether this was a good or a dismal experience for you. We all know how you despise the concept of "settling."  

 If it was weighted towards the "good," even though she was not worthy of you as far as her appearance goes, I'm wondering why you might not experiment with dating less than modelesque women again sometime.  

[BaileyB]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I know my worth

Have you read this thread?

You clearly don’t or you would be be posting the kind of nonsense that you post…

[NuevoYorko]

4 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

You’re not interested in putting in any work so what you’re really hoping for is the equivalent of winning the lottery. 

Even more ridiculous:  Winning the lottery without even buying a ticket.   

Whining for a decade and going on 8000 posts  about how egregious he finds this state of affairs and soliciting for pity.   

And ... still refuses to buy the ticket.

[basil67]

5 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

Maybe instead of talking about yourself religiously, you could help others?

Without projecting your own issues into the advice

[basil67]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

because it would seem reading is a dying past time among many people, much like any sort of interest in world affairs is.

And yet, I know so many people who are buying Kindles.  And I meet so many people who are browsing my little street library...and why are so many street libraries popping up locally if people aren't interested in reading? 

If there was no interest in world affairs, my FB feed would not be filled with opinions on various wars and elections.  I'm nearly 20 years older than you and I would argue that social media is allowing people to discuss this more than ever before.  But when hanging out with friends, it's not a topic most will gravitate to.  Sure, some issue may get discussed briefly, but many people who socialise don't want to get bogged down in things which are either very dry or very distressing.  Prior to that, there was a social rule of "don't discuss religion, politics or money in company".  

You are hankering for a time which never existed

 

[basil67]

23 minutes ago, basil67 said:

And yet, I know so many people who are buying Kindles.  And I meet so many people who are browsing my little street library...and why are so many street libraries popping up locally if people aren't interested in reading? 

If there was no interest in world affairs, my FB feed would not be filled with opinions on various wars and elections.  I'm nearly 20 years older than you and I would argue that social media is allowing people to discuss this more than ever before.  But when hanging out with friends, it's not a topic most will gravitate to.  Sure, some issue may get discussed briefly, but many people who socialise don't want to get bogged down in things which are either very dry or very distressing.  Prior to that, there was a social rule of "don't discuss religion, politics or money in company".  

You are hankering for a time which never existed

Further, why is it so important that a partner can talk in depth on world affairs?  Could you not share discussions on daily life?  Such as friends, family, gym, sports, cars, things of local interest, planning holidays, sharing stories, domestic policy, animal welfare, climate change, trying new foods, going to restaurants, history, future....the list of topics is endless.  And if you can't do this and are really only happy talking on one topic, then the problem is you.  Not society

My partner and I have a number of different interests which don't intersect, so we discuss those interests online and with friends who share the interest.  I'm never going to be interested in soccer and guitars and he's never going to be interested in domestic arts.  But we've still got plenty of random things still to talk about.