Perspective

[ZA Dater]

49 minutes ago, FredEire said:

You said it yourself it's subjective, you could find a woman drop dead gorgeous and her personality irresistible, your friend might say "meh".

That's because you have very different histories which affect the people you are attracted to. You seem to only be attracted to people who have no interest in you, and on top of that you rarely try because you are so convinced of failure. It's not going to just drop into your lap.

Also because you have zero confidence the amount of women who will be interested in you is quite low, so I agree the girls who see someone who is so down on themselves and still say "ok I'm going for this guy" are not likely to be all that attractive themselves.

If you went out there and tried to speak to as many women as possible and make connections, a strange thing would happen. Your confidence would rise, and the shackles of caring about rejection would fall off. But you're already so convinced that it's terrible and awful that you don't want to even try.

I am attracted in people I find interesting and attractive, the fact they have no interest in me is not too surprising even though I start off hoping they might in fact possibly be interested in me, there is always that hope.

You actually do not know how I present so the bold is not particularly relevant or true, I have worked out to try and get rid of awkwardness and to some degree shyness but both will arrive fairly quickly if the conversation does not flow. The truth is when i have been on dates, even the handful where I did sort of like the person I had no idea what I should be doing, I had to wing it and use whatever judgement I could find at the time.

With respect I am out in public pretty often and the odd time I have seen this its truly cringe worthy at best and creepy at worst. I would never ever invade someone's space like that unless I was spoken to first. Again I have no flirting ability so it would not go anywhere either so I might as well sit and talk to a co worker. Its also probably why its a lot of easier to be useful than date worthy.

I'll see if she reaches out in July, if so great, I will try build some sort of friendship. That is at least better than nothing.

Ultimately nobody is owed anything.

 

Edited June 1 by ZA Dater

[basil67]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I'll see if she reaches out in July, if so great, I will try build some sort of friendship. That is at least better than nothing.

You said yourself that you've been "trying to meet up for months".  If she was interested in romance or even friendship, she would have found time to meet with you.

 

 

[basil67]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I am not looking for unicorns, how can they be when I have met many people I find interesting and attractive, hardly unicorns. Its really subjective attractive to one can be unattractive to others, though I suppose the problem is when you find those who are seemingly universally attractive, attractive. People with options will always select the best one for them, which apparently not, no problem with that, does not mean I should simply throw up my arms and force myself to be attracted to someone I am not simply because they find me attractive.

Using your own theories.......

The women you're attracted to have many options.  So following your theory, they will select the best one for themselves.   But you want the unicorn who's prepared to settle for you.

Seriously, if you won't accept less than perfect, why should they?

[FredEire]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I am attracted in people I find interesting and attractive, the fact they have no interest in me is not too surprising even though I start off hoping they might in fact possibly be interested in me, there is always that hope.

You actually do not know how I present so the bold is not particularly relevant or true, I have worked out to try and get rid of awkwardness and to some degree shyness but both will arrive fairly quickly if the conversation does not flow. The truth is when i have been on dates, even the handful where I did sort of like the person I had no idea what I should be doing, I had to wing it and use whatever judgement I could find at the time.

With respect I am out in public pretty often and the odd time I have seen this its truly cringe worthy at best and creepy at worst. I would never ever invade someone's space like that unless I was spoken to first. Again I have no flirting ability so it would not go anywhere either so I might as well sit and talk to a co worker. Its also probably why its a lot of easier to be useful than date worthy.

I'll see if she reaches out in July, if so great, I will try build some sort of friendship. That is at least better than nothing.

Ultimately nobody is owed anything.

 

What you post on here is enough to know you present with a very negative, self-defeating mindset.

And I'm not necessarily talking about cold approaching in the street. You can go to events and nights out and go up to a woman who is out with you and introduce yourself. As long as you are not inappropriately touching her etc it may be awkward at first but it certainly doesn't have to be creepy, it's how people often meet eachother.

[NuevoYorko]

11 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Hang on a second here. What hint of romance would there be if I can't find mutual attraction?

It's because you're going at it completely backwards.   You get to know NO ONE and you're very isolated from other people.  You have no understanding of people.  That's because you "can't be bothered" to get to know anyone unless you are  bowled over by the blasting spark.

Of course you should not go into romantic relationships with people you are not attracted to.  You don't need to "try" to be attracted.  What you would need to do is to have some openness to get to know people and learn what they are about.   It's possible that you might find something worth sparking.  More likely, you will expand your horizons where people are concerned and may meet other people through those.  

 

[basil67]

2 hours ago, FredEire said:

And I'm not necessarily talking about cold approaching in the street. You can go to events and nights out and go up to a woman who is out with you and introduce yourself. As long as you are not inappropriately touching her etc it may be awkward at first but it certainly doesn't have to be creepy, it's how people often meet eachother.

The easiest way to do this is to strike up a conversation when you're both getting drinks in the kitchen.  Or both grazing the food platters.  Basically, any kind of situation where you're side by side and there's nobody else talking with them

[Gebidozo]

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Perhaps I should not find this amusing but I absolutely do. No attraction= no date. Not sure what is so unreasonable about that. 

Dude, are you pretending to be dumb on purpose? Is this some kind of refined trolling technique?😡

For the 29347475th time: your stupid “requirements” are NOT attraction! Attraction is a natural thing. You meet a person, you talk, and at some point you become attracted. You have it all upside down, you’ve drawn a list with silly preferences and are walking around waving that list in people’s faces, hoping to find someone that ticks all the boxes in it. And when someone does, of course that someone does not like you, because any normal woman would find this approach of yours unromantic and childish at best, creepy and repulsive at worst.

The other poster is right, you live in your own fake world, you don’t want to know how real world works, you’re basically scared of love, and when people tell you that you must change that you get all defensive and mumble your usual idiotic mantras about how you are unlovable but you’ll never change anything about yourself.

Dude, you’re just infuriating. I feel like I’ve wasted way too much time and effort on trying to help you. You’re stubborn and inflexible beyond belief, you don’t listen that all to what people tell you, you distort what people tell you, which is, frankly, insulting.

 

Edited June 2 by Gebidozo

[basil67]

15 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok that's very interesting and to me it show's you have an attraction to him which is great and you didn't merely settle. It's actually a lovely story thanks for sharing.

I didn't have an attraction to him when I first saw him.  But as I got to know him, the attraction grew and grew.  

Had I dated like you do and refused to give him a chance because there wasn't struck with immediate attraction, we wouldn't have gotten our relationship off the ground

[Gebidozo]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

I didn't have an attraction to him when I first saw him.  But as I got to know him, the attraction grew and grew.  

Had I dated like you do and refused to give him a chance because there wasn't struck with immediate attraction, we wouldn't have gotten our relationship off the ground

The problem is that what the OP calls “attraction” is not attraction at all, but an on-paper correspondence to items on his list, possession of traits he’s declared to be “attractive” (such as a certain height, etc.). The OP acts like a computer that scans objects for compatibility, not like a man willing to open his heart to feelings and be vulnerable. Hence the extreme rigidity of his demands, and the appalling lack of anything resembling natural development of interpersonal chemistry.

I’m afraid that the time he’s spent on OLD has turned him into something like an emotionless, calculating dating app😔

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, basil67 said:

The easiest way to do this is to strike up a conversation when you're both getting drinks in the kitchen.  Or both grazing the food platters.  Basically, any kind of situation where you're side by side and there's nobody else talking with them

How do you determine they are single? 

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, basil67 said:

I didn't have an attraction to him when I first saw him.  But as I got to know him, the attraction grew and grew.  

Had I dated like you do and refused to give him a chance because there wasn't struck with immediate attraction, we wouldn't have gotten our relationship off the ground

I accept this. However I cannot recall anyone I've found attractive ever giving me a chance.

 

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, FredEire said:

What you post on here is enough to know you present with a very negative, self-defeating mindset.

And I'm not necessarily talking about cold approaching in the street. You can go to events and nights out and go up to a woman who is out with you and introduce yourself. As long as you are not inappropriately touching her etc it may be awkward at first but it certainly doesn't have to be creepy, it's how people often meet eachother.

I don't do nights out anymore, all the people I know are married mostly and for me going out on my own is an experience best avoided. Hence why I spent years on dating app's.

Which was actually helpful in a small way. Also go out and logically I know anyone I find superficially attractive will almost certainly have a boyfriend.

[FredEire]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

How do you determine they are single? 

Ask them, in a roundabout way.

If something about a new restaurant comes up for example respond with "oh I'd love to go but I'm single so I've nobody to go with at the moment haha".

She might respond with "Oh yeah I actually went there last week with my husband!" or if she's single she might say something like "Oh me too, so sad!". In addition if she's interested you've put your cards on the table and it opens up the possibility of you inviting her yourself.

Believe it or not people are aware of this so they'll often tell you in some way, but knowing that it sounds a bit off to just bluntly say they're single or taken.

There's been many times I've been talking to a woman, showing interest and she drops something casually into the conversation about a holiday she went on with her bf etc, to let me know she's off the market. Most of the time this isn't an accident.

I get the feeling you're not all that comfortable expressing and finding out things in this roundabout way, but it's a big part of social skills and how people conduct themselves and build relationships.

Edited June 2 by FredEire

[FredEire]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I don't do nights out anymore, all the people I know are married mostly and for me going out on my own is an experience best avoided. Hence why I spent years on dating app's.

Which was actually helpful in a small way. Also go out and logically I know anyone I find superficially attractive will almost certainly have a boyfriend.

So start doing nights out again, find social event on Meetup etc and go to them if your current friends are all married, get out there and get active. Start learning a new language and go to a language exchange, there's lots of options.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

Ask them, in a roundabout way.

If something about a new restaurant comes up for example respond with "oh I'd love to go but I'm single so I've nobody to go with at the moment haha".

She might respond with "Oh yeah I actually went there last week with my husband!" or if she's single she might say something like "Oh me too, so sad!". In addition if she's interested you've put your cards on the table and it opens up the possibility of you inviting her yourself.

Believe it or not people are aware of this so they'll often tell you in some way, but knowing that it sounds a bit off to just bluntly say they're single or taken.

There's been many times I've been talking to a woman, showing interest and she drops something casually into the conversation about a holiday she went on with her bf etc, to let me know she's off the market. Most of the time this isn't an accident.

I get the feeling you're not all that comfortable expressing and finding out things in this roundabout way, but it's a big part of social skills and how people conduct themselves and build relationships.

This sort of fishing has real allure for me at all, besides as I mentioned many times, everyone I am around is not single so this scenario is highly unlikely to ever happen. I will say that the first coffee meeting I had with this lady this sort of banter did take place and I could just about pull it off and I did actually pretty much do what you suggested in bold, though I did this as we were leaving. She just smiled laughed and the idea was to meet up again. Of course we know how well that worked out.

You would be right, I do not particularly enjoy it but again I have little reason to do this, especially with zero confidence.

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

So start doing nights out again, find social event on Meetup etc and go to them if your current friends are all married, get out there and get active. Start learning a new language and go to a language exchange, there's lots of options.

I'd rather simply sit at home and work on my novel. Going out just makes me realise I basically have nothing whereas if I sit and and work on anything I can at least chase the sense of accomplishment. Meetup is not for me, my experience is its highly contrived . Add being a non drinker and I cannot really see any upside to going out, looking at all these people coupled up while I sit on my own, trust me its as unpleasant as it sounds. OLD was my method to try and date and unfortunately it has not worked for me. 

Yesterday I went for a sunset walk and no surprise what did I see, lots couples, I kept walking, kept enjoying the last rays of sunshine but the empty feeling was there and I really had to fight it back. Weights helped a bit but not completely. 

I am still not convinced my in person success rate would be any better than it was on OLD. 

Maybe I'll get some sort of coffee meet up with this lady in July, that is all I have to hang onto at the moment because every single in person interaction I have enjoyed hugely.

[NuevoYorko]

43 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I'd rather simply sit at home and work on my novel.

Are there human characters in your novel?  If you have any aspirations of it being readable by people, you might want to go out and about just an information gathering mission.  Since you are completely off base about how humans function,  except for your own perception of yourself, you won't be able to create any fleshed out fictional characters if you don't have anything to work with.

If there are female humans in your novel, you have even more to gain by connecting with people.

Even if it's science fiction, historical fiction or an "action / adventure" novel, I guarantee that readers need something to connect with in the characters.  

I guess the exception would be if you're writing for an audience of small children.

[ZA Dater]

26 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

Are there human characters in your novel?  If you have any aspirations of it being readable by people, you might want to go out and about just an information gathering mission.  Since you are completely off base about how humans function,  except for your own perception of yourself, you won't be able to create any fleshed out fictional characters if you don't have anything to work with.

If there are female humans in your novel, you have even more to gain by connecting with people.

Even if it's science fiction, historical fiction or an "action / adventure" novel, I guarantee that readers need something to connect with in the characters.  

I guess the exception would be if you're writing for an audience of small children.

I went out and about for many years specifically for research purposes.

[BaileyB]

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I went out and about for many years specifically for research purposes.

But you haven’t learned very much, evidenced by your most recent post which repeats the same diatribe that you plan to withdraw from the social world because you can’t figure out how to form the relationship you want with a woman…

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be harsh but the repetitive story line of these posts is difficult to read. If that’s your “research,” that is not a good omen.

Edited June 2 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

Just now, BaileyB said:

But you haven’t learned very much, evidenced by your most recent post which repeats the same diatribe that you plan to withdraw from the world because you can’t figure out how to form the relationship you want with a woman…

I have learnt a lack of superficial attraction cannot be overcome. Which is fine, everyone has to be attracted to their partner so it's to be expected.

How to form, yeah well that's pretty impossible if I am not attractive to those I want to form relationships with.

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I'd rather simply sit at home and work on my novel. Going out just makes me realise I basically have nothing whereas if I sit and and work on anything I can at least chase the sense of accomplishment. Meetup is not for me, my experience is its highly contrived . Add being a non drinker and I cannot really see any upside to going out, looking at all these people coupled up while I sit on my own, trust me its as unpleasant as it sounds. OLD was my method to try and date and unfortunately it has not worked for me. 

Yesterday I went for a sunset walk and no surprise what did I see, lots couples, I kept walking, kept enjoying the last rays of sunshine but the empty feeling was there and I really had to fight it back. Weights helped a bit but not completely. 

I am still not convinced my in person success rate would be any better than it was on OLD. 

Maybe I'll get some sort of coffee meet up with this lady in July, that is all I have to hang onto at the moment because every single in person interaction I have enjoyed hugely.

Well you don't meet anyone it's really not possibly for anything romantic to develop... it's pretty simple. So up to you.

[BaileyB]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I have learnt a lack of superficial attraction cannot be overcome. Which is fine, everyone has to be attracted to their partner so it's to be expected.

How to form, yeah well that's pretty impossible if I am not attractive to those I want to form relationships with.

The same diatribe… I can’t continue to have this conversation with you. I’m out - again.

[Weezy1973]

@ZA Dater Again the one thing everybody can agree on is that what you do isn’t working. And by working I don’t mean magically finding mutual attraction. I mean your life in general. What you’re doing isn’t working. It hasn’t been working for, well I’m guessing your whole adult life. 
 

But you fight and argue and debate vociferously to keep doing things the same way. You refuse to listen to people who are in long term relationships. We can all see with clarity that doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is indeed the definition of insanity. Here’s what I would do if I were you and wanting things to change in my life:

1. Go see a professional and see if I’m autistic or somewhere on the spectrum. 
 

2. Go to a CBT therapist to deal with your fear of rejection. 
 

3. Go to a talk therapist to deal with your childhood / teenage trauma. 
 

Now of course you’re going to refuse to do all of that, so in that case you should:

4. Move and reboot your life. 
 

Or, be alone forever. On your deathbed will you be happy you just stayed in your comfort zone and stayed alone forever? 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

@ZA Dater Again the one thing everybody can agree on is that what you do isn’t working. And by working I don’t mean magically finding mutual attraction. I mean your life in general. What you’re doing isn’t working. It hasn’t been working for, well I’m guessing your whole adult life. 
 

But you fight and argue and debate vociferously to keep doing things the same way. You refuse to listen to people who are in long term relationships. We can all see with clarity that doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is indeed the definition of insanity. Here’s what I would do if I were you and wanting things to change in my life:

1. Go see a professional and see if I’m autistic or somewhere on the spectrum. 
 

2. Go to a CBT therapist to deal with your fear of rejection. 
 

3. Go to a talk therapist to deal with your childhood / teenage trauma. 
 

Now of course you’re going to refuse to do all of that, so in that case you should:

4. Move and reboot your life. 
 

Or, be alone forever. On your deathbed will you be happy you just stayed in your comfort zone and stayed alone forever? 

No thanks. I can see why therapy is such a lucrative industry, apparently its the fix all even when my experience its a total of waste of time. I am however glad it works for some. The mere fact I cannot find mutual attraction is the very reason none of this works. There is no fear of rejection, I simply do not wish to have more of it but again you cannot relate to the because "people who are in long term relationships", you simply cannot relate and that is fine and understandable. 

As for your last point, I've been haunted by that for a long time but I am making peace with it slowly in the knowledge there are millions like me and I am far from unique despite the fact you and other keep telling me dating is so easy and everyone lands up with the love of their life. Quite clearly that is not true.

So long as I can wake up each day and say I have not sold out on my beliefs, I have not purposefully hurt anyone, I have been kind to those around me, I did the best I could the day before. I can take some degree of comfort in that. Sure I am chronically lonely but that is just tough for me, ultimately I am inconsequential, people I walk past, they could not care about me.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, FredEire said:

Well you don't meet anyone it's really not possibly for anything romantic to develop... it's pretty simple. So up to you.

I tried to meet many people in 10 years on OLD, why would it be any different standing in bar with a glass of water in my hand? Ask yourself why as society we need contrived things like Meetup if everything apparently works so well?

I ask you to sit back and question a lot of this. If the world worked so well why do we have dating apps? My one "relationship" I never argued once but I did disagree at the end "we need to go official", frankly what rubbish, if I am dating you for 7 months clearly we are official, why does society prescribe such arcane nonsense, again ask yourself why?

Guys are expected to make the first move and thus feel the full force of rejection, again why? You talked earlier about having to find things out in a round about way, again why? Why cant people simply be transparent. 

Each time I found someone I liked, I made it quite obvious I was interested and you know what, the minute I did that I suddenly was ignored as has happened now. 

Ask yourself how many things we go along with for no other reason than everyone else simple does it, heck I know people who hate drinking but do it to simply fit it, likewise going to bars, clubs and music festivals. 

Ultimately I think I am simply not a very romantic person so add that to the long list of reasons why I am unattractive.