The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

[Admiral Thrawn]

The God of the Old Testament, is the same God of the New Testament.

The 'love' Gospel, that is going around is simply incorrect.

Sure, God loves everyone, and desires that everyone will be 'saved', but that is one side of the coin. The fact is, there is another side of God, that He is a God of Holiness and Justice. If you fail to obey the Holy Spirit, and/or if you choose your own way of salvation, apart from what God prescribes, then you are doomed. Yet, people still think that God is loving and will accept people anyway, no matter if they flaunt God's prescribed way...

 

When you read the book of Numbers, you begin to understand about God's dealing with the Jews in the wilderness once they have left Egypt. It is a good book to read, because you understand that God means business, and is not some sort of pushover or puppet God. People got killed in the book of Numbers who messed with the Lord, or the Lord's annointed.

 

In Numbers 16 - The Levites were appointed to conduct service. However, the Korah tribe wanted to usurp this order, and challenged Moses's authority.

The result? Korah, and his followers were killed instantly in an earthquake the Lord had caused.

 

Numbers 21:4 - 'Fiery serpents' are let loose in the tribe of Israel for their murmurings and complaints. Each time a serpent bit anyone, they died.

Moses put up a bronze serpent. If anyone looked at that statue they lived. If they refused to look at it, they died. It was simple as that.

 

Everyone who murmered and complained in the wilderness, at the time they had their first opportunity to invade Canaan, died. (Numbers 13)

 

The reference of these 'Fiery serprents' is used in the New Testament to portray Jesus. If you look to Jesus, you will be saved. If you look elsewhere, you will die and go to hell. It is as simple as that now.

 

People tend to think that God is somehow 'different', or 'softer, more loving and less judging' in the Christian New Testament, as opposed to the harsh Jewish Old Testament, where people were dying left, right, and centre for murmuring, complaining and challenging Moses' and even God's authority to lead Israel in the wilderness. There is such a thing as the power and presence of God in the annointing, but if you are on the wrong side, then it is very dangerous.

 

In the Early Church, people in the church died too who messed with God.

(Acts 5). Someone lied to the Holy Spirit about how much money they had.

They died immediately after they lied by some sort of shock.

 

Despite people were persecuting Christians during that time, God still disciplined (killed) followers, under the annointing of the Holy Spirit, when they 'lied' against the Holy Spirit. Again, illustrating the 'unforgivable sin'.

 

If the Holy Spirit is dealing with you. It is communicating with you to do something, or not to do something. Then, you better listen to that voice and do not play around. Maybe it is a conviction to get right with God, or perhaps it is something else the Lord has layed upon your heart.

 

My mother had told me stories of people's misfortunes after they had told her, that they did not want to receive Christ now, but wanted to party and enjoy the world first, and receive Him later. Later never came for some of them. Now is the accepted time of salvation, tommorow may be too late.

Do not take the voice of the Holy Spirit lightly. There is no soft-patsy type of God - the God of the 'love' Gospel - it is a God to be reckoned with.

 

May I be the first to testify first hand, that disobeying the voice of the Lord my God has caused me untold financial misery, even up to this day. I disobeyed the word of the Lord, NOT to play the stock market with $ 15 000 in credit card money. I played it anyway, thinking I was smarter than God. Up until today, I'm financially still a mess as a result of disobeying that voice. It is a dead-serious matter to listen to God.

[Yamaha]

YOU presume to know God's will. Do you know who he will forgive and who he will damn? You must be JC incarnate if you have it like that. God does want you to fear him to a degree but not above all else. He does not want you to feel like he is big brother watching your every slip up. He was sent here to save the sinners not the saints. He spent his time walking among the sinners not the saints. He didn't condemn the women at the well so neither should you condemn others as you are not GOD.

[Moose]

I think the Admiral did a very good job explaining his views. And I personally agree with what he has said. Our view match. Others may think what they will.

 

BUT, for you, Yamaha to say this in one breath:

YOU presume to know God's will.

Then in the next, you claim to know God's will:

God does want you to fear him to a degree but not above all else. He does not want you to feel like he is big brother watching your every slip up

I didn't see anywhere where Admiral said anything like that. I did read where he mentioned the Holy Spirit speaking to you.....and convicting you of what is right and what is wrong. All he has said is to listen to that voice, or pay the consequence.

 

I think it may do you service to understand what he wrote, not just read over it and twist it around.

 

Good Job Admiral.

[witabix]

1. Yet, people still think that God is loving and will accept people anyway, no matter if they flaunt God's prescribed way...

 

2........People got killed in the book of Numbers who messed with the Lord, or the Lord's annointed.

 

3.........Moses put up a bronze serpent. If anyone looked at that statue they lived. If they refused to look at it, they died. It was simple as that.

 

4.............If you look to Jesus, you will be saved. If you look elsewhere, you will die and go to hell. It is as simple as that now.

 

5.........Moses' and even God's authority to lead Israel in the wilderness. There is such a thing as the power and presence of God in the annointing, but if you are on the wrong side, then it is very dangerous.

 

6.In the Early Church, people in the church died too who messed with God.

(Acts 5). Someone lied to the Holy Spirit about how much money they had.

They died immediately after they lied by some sort of shock.

 

 

7.May I be the first to testify first hand, that disobeying the voice of the Lord my God has caused me untold financial misery, even up to this day. I disobeyed the word of the Lord, NOT to play the stock market with $ 15 000 in credit card money. I played it anyway, thinking I was smarter than God. Up until today, I'm financially still a mess as a result of disobeying that voice. It is a dead-serious matter to listen to God.

 

 

1. You must be pretty sure then.

 

2.People get killed everyday when they mess with electricity.

 

3 Then you call Moses an idolator.

 

4. Illogical, implication - looking to your Jesus means you do not die.

 

5. Interesting, last time I looked Ha'eretz was a Jewish State, maybe they are born again christian Jews?

 

6. Lied to the holy spirit? Now you are just being silly. The HS is part of the trinity, how do you lie to your own god?

 

7. You believe in a god, and you think you are smarter than him? Hardly need to spend fifteen grand to learn that that is not so smart at all. On this basis, whose god told Bill Gates about windows? He has a few dollars in the bank I hear.

[Moose]

Good one witabix.....you all are becoming masters of twisting people around....especially when it comes to personal views of religion.

 

Can't anyone come on here, and express their views, and give a little testimony of their, "place and purpose in the universe" without everyone ripping their opinions apart??

 

Let's grow up people......

 

Admiral is fairly new here, and probably should state he is sharing his views, and what he says is what he believes is right.

 

I should be allowed to agree with him. You should be allowed to disagree with him.

 

BUT, if you disagree with him, state why. Share with us your views, don't tear his views down word for word, after all, you should be bright enough to understand where he's coming from.....

 

There's no need to call him silly, or tell him he's wrong either. You haven't that right........they are HIS views......impossible to own.

[Admiral Thrawn]

YOU presume to know God's will. Do you know who he will forgive and who he will damn? You must be JC incarnate if you have it like that. God does want you to fear him to a degree but not above all else. He does not want you to feel like he is big brother watching your every slip up. He was sent here to save the sinners not the saints. He spent his time walking among the sinners not the saints. He didn't condemn the women at the well so neither should you condemn others as you are not GOD.

 

God's will is clearly in the Word of God for everyone to see.

 

God wants everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Thus, God wants everyone to accept Jesus as their Savior and be born-again.

 

However, the ultimate decisions of all this rests on people. God gave people power on the earth, and free-wills. That's why, because of disobedience, His primary will may not be fulfilled in many cases and people die without Christ.

 

Christians are expected to pray for, evangelise, and/or support Ministires that go out and reach the lost. People who have heard the Gospel under the 'annointing' are expected to obey the voice and receive Christ. That is how God's primary will for humanity is fulfilled. God will not force everyone to be saved, or do it without using people to carry out His mission.

 

So, you see, it is not as simple as you would like to make this out to be.

If you are truely a born-again Christian, then your time is best spent trying to pray for, and reach out to lost souls, or at least support Ministires that do so, rather than rationalize and argue that people will be fine if they dont hear the Gospel, and God will accept anyone apart from them receing Jesus into their hearts.

 

As for the rest of your post, I believe Moose has addressed your points.

You have responded essentially to a post, that you have twisted up, what I reply to here is what I believe is a hint of genuinity in your reply that I want to address.

[HokeyReligions]

That's similar to how I was raised. Just as a parent loves his child he (or she) must also teach right from wrong, including discipline for mis-behavior, God loves His children and also teach them. I can't count the number of times I have heard "put the fear of God in you" in my life!

 

It does seem that whenever anyone expresses "old fashioned" ideas about God they are bashed because so many people don't want to hear it. They want to bend God's words to suit their lifestyle and what they consider a good 'punishment' or 'reward' -- much like a child may be told to choose his own punishment for mis-behavior---they choose something they can live with and won't be too hard on them and then they feel good about themselves and convince themselves that the punishment - or reward - is justified.

 

*IF* there is some kind of God or Supreme Being I don't think He has changed at all --- only mankind's interpretations and behaviors and societies have changed.

[Moai]

Interesting post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I would like to add some of my own.

 

The God of the Old Testament, is the same God of the New Testament.

I think it was Zwingli who asserted that there are two different gods as a way to explain their different attitudes as described in the Bible. None of the early church fathers agreed with him. I didn't know that anyone had tried to bring that back. Interesting.

 

The 'love' Gospel, that is going around is simply incorrect.

I agree.

 

Sure, God loves everyone, and desires that everyone will be 'saved', but that is one side of the coin. The fact is, there is another side of God, that He is a God of Holiness and Justice.

I disagree. The god described in the bible is not just, nor is he particularly holy. There is a passage in Exodus, I believe, where god commands that the Jews (not called that yet, though) go into a valley and kill everyone, including all the women and children--except the virgin women, who were to be taken as slaves. Also, there are several instances where someone will disobey God and then God punishes someone else. Noah gets drunk once the flood is over, and he passes out with his genitals exposed. His sons see his exposed manhood, so God kills their families. I don't think that is just, or even rational.

 

If you fail to obey the Holy Spirit, and/or if you choose your own way of salvation, apart from what God prescribes, then you are doomed. Yet, people still think that God is loving and will accept people anyway, no matter if they flaunt God's prescribed way...

Paul--who wrote most of the New Testement--says that women should not speak in church. If women speak in church are they disobeying the Holy Spirit?

 

When you read the book of Numbers, you begin to understand about God's dealing with the Jews in the wilderness once they have left Egypt. It is a good book to read, because you understand that God means business, and is not some sort of pushover or puppet God. People got killed in the book of Numbers who messed with the Lord, or the Lord's annointed.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever in Egypt. Even if there were, His dealings with the Jews are bizarre and unjust. Read the passages regarding freeing thew Jews. Pharoh repeatedly agrees to free them, but then God "hardens Pharoh's heart" and they are kept in bondage. He then kills all the first born sons at one point, gives everyone boils, etc. and each time Pharoh gives in, only to have God harden his heart once more. Does he do that to inflict more pain on the Egyptians for sport, or what? The infants killed were certainly innocent of any crime against the Jews, yet they were killed, too. That is not just.

 

In Numbers 16 - The Levites were appointed to conduct service. However, the Korah tribe wanted to usurp this order, and challenged Moses's authority.

The result? Korah, and his followers were killed instantly in an earthquake the Lord had caused.

Interesting that God doesn't do this anymore. Natural disasters seem to kill indescriminately now.

 

Numbers 21:4 - 'Fiery serpents' are let loose in the tribe of Israel for their murmurings and complaints. Each time a serpent bit anyone, they died.

Moses put up a bronze serpent. If anyone looked at that statue they lived. If they refused to look at it, they died. It was simple as that.

Do you believe that looking at a statue will make you immune to a snake's venom? I remember a particular passage where Isaac or Jonah or somebody makes a deal to buy all of the spotted calves from someone. He thows colored sticks on the ground, and all the cows who see the sticks have spotted calves. Do you believe that looking at an object will effect the coloring of an animal? If God did that before, why isnt He doing that now for believers? Also, does that sound just for the man who had to give up his calves?

 

Everyone who murmered and complained in the wilderness, at the time they had their first opportunity to invade Canaan, died. (Numbers 13)

If I had been wandering the desert for 40 years waiting to go to the Promised Land I probably would have complianed, too. So I guess I would have died. It isd interesting that we have free will, but are punished when we excercise it.

 

The reference of these 'Fiery serprents' is used in the New Testament to portray Jesus. If you look to Jesus, you will be saved. If you look elsewhere, you will die and go to hell. It is as simple as that now.

That is unjust. What possible crime could I commit that would justify eterenal torment? Simply because I use the very brain God gave me and get an answer He doesn't like? Further, I did not eat the Forbidden Fruit, so why am I "cursed" with a sinful nature? Is it fair to punish the son for the sins of the father? Humans have determined that to be unjust.

 

People tend to think that God is somehow 'different', or 'softer, more loving and less judging' in the Christian New Testament, as opposed to the harsh Jewish Old Testament, where people were dying left, right, and centre for murmuring, complaining and challenging Moses' and even God's authority to lead Israel in the wilderness. There is such a thing as the power and presence of God in the annointing, but if you are on the wrong side, then it is very dangerous.

I agree, but it seems that most believers haven't actually read the Bible. Again, after 40 years, some grumbling is to be expecteed, no?

 

In the Early Church, people in the church died too who messed with God.

(Acts 5). Someone lied to the Holy Spirit about how much money they had.

They died immediately after they lied by some sort of shock.

How come lying isn't fatal now? Believers lie all the time. Jimmy Swaggart, for one, has lied repeatedly and he is still on television--and believers are still sending him money.

 

Despite people were persecuting Christians during that time, God still disciplined (killed) followers, under the annointing of the Holy Spirit, when they 'lied' against the Holy Spirit. Again, illustrating the 'unforgivable sin'.

Fine if He wants to kill people who "lie" against the Holy Spirit, but why allow those on the "straight and narrow" to be killed also? If staying true to the Holy Spirit engeners no benefit, why adhere to it?

 

If the Holy Spirit is dealing with you. It is communicating with you to do something, or not to do something. Then, you better listen to that voice and do not play around. Maybe it is a conviction to get right with God, or perhaps it is something else the Lord has layed upon your heart.

I can't say that I have "felt" the Holy Spirit dealing with me at all.

 

My mother had told me stories of people's misfortunes after they had told her, that they did not want to receive Christ now, but wanted to party and enjoy the world first, and receive Him later. Later never came for some of them. Now is the accepted time of salvation, tommorow may be too late.

Do not take the voice of the Holy Spirit lightly. There is no soft-patsy type of God - the God of the 'love' Gospel - it is a God to be reckoned with.

I agree. The God described in the Bible is horrible and terrifying.

 

May I be the first to testify first hand, that disobeying the voice of the Lord my God has caused me untold financial misery, even up to this day. I disobeyed the word of the Lord, NOT to play the stock market with $ 15 000 in credit card money. I played it anyway, thinking I was smarter than God. Up until today, I'm financially still a mess as a result of disobeying that voice. It is a dead-serious matter to listen to God.

I am sorry to hear about your financial difficulties, that is a drag. I don't believe in God, and I would never play the stock market on credit. I have made and probably will make other mistakes, though. I think that even people who listen to the Holy Spirit in everything still make mistakes, don't they?

 

I hope that your financial situtation improves in the New Year, and that your family is healthy and happy.

[Yamaha]

As for the rest of your post, I believe Moose has addressed your points.

You have responded essentially to a post, that you have twisted up, what I reply to here is what I believe is a hint of genuinity in your reply that I want to address.

 

I was responding to your previous post that we are damned if we don't fear GOD. It is never my intention to twist the word of GOD. I am a believer and because my views do not always match yours does not discount either view. We are here to learn, study and debate. Peace, my brother.

[slubberdegullion]

In the Lord's house there are many rooms.

 

I think it's safe to say that there are rooms for all of us, whether we give credence to the fire-and-brimstone angry God of the OT, or God as reflected in the love of Jesus in the NT.

[Outcast]

It does seem that whenever anyone expresses "old fashioned" ideas about God they are bashed because so many people don't want to hear it. They want to bend God's words to suit their lifestyle and what they consider a good 'punishment' or 'reward

 

Not the case, Hokey. Jesus said that His way was the new way and, if you read the New Testament, it's filled with references right from Jesus' lips about loving and forgiving. People who are against the 'old fashioned' ideas are following the New Testament teachings. When Jesus was angry, he was angry with pretentiousness, liars, holier-than-thou types, and he warned against pride, judgement - all the traits that the so-called 'christians' employ. Jesus never said 'browbeat people and threaten them with eternal damnation unless they listen to you'.

 

In two passages in Matthew, He told us all we need:

 

'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

22: 32

 

Here He says that it's Him you're supposed to be paying attention to.

 

Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

22: 37-40

 

In short, EVERYTHING in the Bible about human conduct and behaviour rests on those two dictates. And they are not about hate or judgement or condemnation. They are about love.

[Moai]

Not the case, Hokey. Jesus said that His way was the new way and, if you read the New Testament, it's filled with references right from Jesus' lips about loving and forgiving. People who are against the 'old fashioned' ideas are following the New Testament teachings. When Jesus was angry, he was angry with pretentiousness, liars, holier-than-thou types, and he warned against pride, judgement - all the traits that the so-called 'christians' employ. Jesus never said 'browbeat people and threaten them with eternal damnation unless they listen to you'.

 

In two passages in Matthew, He told us all we need:

 

'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

22: 32

 

Here He says that it's Him you're supposed to be paying attention to.

 

Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

22: 37-40

 

In short, EVERYTHING in the Bible about human conduct and behaviour rests on those two dictates. And they are not about hate or judgement or condemnation. They are about love.

 

That is not so. In Leviticus, we are instructed to "not suffer a witch to live". In Deuteronomy we are instructed to kill people who don't follow Jehovah, and burn their churches. He also says not to show mercy to strangers. The Old Testement is rife with stories of innocents being slaughtered.

 

The entire New Testement is a description of non-believers being burned, purged, and otherwise destroyed. Also, believers are to shun and persecute those who disagree. That is certainly human conduct and behavior, isn't it?

[Outcast]

The entire New Testement is a description of non-believers being burned, purged, and otherwise destroyed. Also, believers are to shun and persecute those who disagree.

 

No it's not!!!!!

[Moai]

No it's not!!!!!

 

Sure it is. Read it for yourself. The message of the New Testement is "believe me or die."

[Tangerina]

In my humble opinion, fear is never the beginning of wisdom.

 

PS didn't you learn anything from Star Wars, of which I assume you are a fan from the name, "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering." I know it is stupid because a computer animated puppet said it, but that doesn't make it less true.

[Outcast]

Sure it is. Read it for yourself.

 

Dude, I've done it. Plenty of times. Gone to studies on it. Also gone through the entire Bible. If you pay attention while you read, the theme throughout the Bible is that God destroyed places where either people were disobeying Great Commandment 1 or Great Commandment 2. Yep, that's right. Often places were destroyed because the inhabitants were being inhospitable to visitors or others - that's what happened in the Sodom & Gomorrah tale.

 

I'm thinking you maybe want to read it again.

[Admiral Thrawn]

I disagree. The god described in the bible is not just, nor is he particularly holy. There is a passage in Exodus, I believe, where god commands that the Jews (not called that yet, though) go into a valley and kill everyone, including all the women and children--except the virgin women, who were to be taken as slaves. Also, there are several instances where someone will disobey God and then God punishes someone else. Noah gets drunk once the flood is over, and he passes out with his genitals exposed. His sons see his exposed manhood, so God kills their families. I don't think that is just, or even rational.

 

I believe you are referring to the civil war that occurred at the end of the book of Judges, where eleven tribes of Israel were fighting Benjamin tribe.

The reason for this? A couple of rogues, took a concubine of a Levite priest, and raped and sodomized her all night long until she died. The rogues who did this were from the tribe of Benjamin.

 

The Priest, dismembered his dead wife, chopped her up, and sent them to the leaders of the eleven tribes and demanded justice. They asked the Benjamites to deliver the rogues to face justice, but the tribe of Benjamin protected them and refused to do so.

 

This started a civil war. Ultimately, the tribe of Israel won the war, but virtually almost decimated the Benjamin tribe. In order to repopulate, they snatched the surviviing virgin women and married them.

 

These idiots who ruled the tribe of Benjamin should have just delivered the rogues instead of instigate a civil war that almost resulted in their annihiliation. They asked for what they got.

 

Paul--who wrote most of the New Testement--says that women should not speak in church. If women speak in church are they disobeying the Holy Spirit?

 

If most of the women were prostitutes or uneducated, then in that context, it would be unappropriate for them to speak. Now-a-days things are different and most women may not be prostitutes or uneducated, and people may actually "listen" to them. What is the point of having someone preach, that the congregation will not take seriously?

 

Paul writes allot of things that are really like guidelines (or 'spiritual advice' to the Christian who genuinely wants to grow spiritually and mature) rather than moral law, unless something is expressly forbidden. The Holy Spirit deals with each individual differently. A woman may be, or may not be called to preach. I do know that Joyce Myers, is an 'annointed' woman preacher, and I know she has the annointing ('spiritual authority') to preach. I'm sure there are more examples that I am not aware of.

 

Therefore, in answer to your question, woman preachers can and are indeed called by God.

 

There is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever in Egypt. Even if there were, His dealings with the Jews are bizarre and unjust. Read the passages regarding freeing thew Jews. Pharoh repeatedly agrees to free them, but then God "hardens Pharoh's heart" and they are kept in bondage. He then kills all the first born sons at one point, gives everyone boils, etc. and each time Pharoh gives in, only to have God harden his heart once more. Does he do that to inflict more pain on the Egyptians for sport, or what? The infants killed were certainly innocent of any crime against the Jews, yet they were killed, too. That is not just.

 

The idea here is not to debate on history. As far as I am concerned, I know the Jews have been in Egypt, because the Bible says so, and that is all the evidence I need. Furthermore, Egypt's grandeous past has been compromised by something, like a curse hung over that land. I believe it had something to do with it's relationship to Israel at some point in history.

 

There are dynamics of free-will here that we are not going to understand on a summary glance. Let's take this bit by bit.

 

Pharoah's heart was wicked, and he wanted the Jews to remain there as slaves. The Bible says, God does not actually tempt anyone to do wrong, but may allow the devil to do that, since anything the devil does, God has to grant permission, or it is within God's parameters. Pharoah's lust for power and desire to control the Jews, and thought of pushing the God of the Jews, just a little further to see if he could win, is all coming from him. You really have to appreciate the dynamics of this.

 

The Plagues, were actually in defiance of all the Egyptian dieties. Each plague mocked an Egyptian god. The Egyptians trusted in their gods, while the true God, knocked them one by one. They worshipped the frogs, they got more frogs then they could handle, etc.... I do not have the details or particulars of all the Egyptian dieties, but that is the rationale behind the plagues. That the God of the Jews, (and my God too) is superior to all the Egyptian gods, or any gods on this earth.

 

The First-born Passover plague is a typology of Christ. The Blood of Jesus protects the believer from death, or judgement. Like the blood on the Lamposts protected the Jews from the Angel of death. Jesus had no sin, the Passover bread is unleaven, leaven represents sin, therefore, even the Jewish Matzza reflects Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah, even though they do not know it, or recognize Jesus as fulfillment of the Passover

 

 

Interesting that God doesn't do this anymore. Natural disasters seem to kill indescriminately now.

 

I've heard a testimony from a survivor of the Tsunami, who said, he saw Jesus when a wave was about to crush him, and he called upon Him, and was delivered.

 

Where did the Tsunami occur, in a place where there had sex-tours, brothels, places of sin, and idolatry. Other disasters are happening on places where there is plenty of sin. December months, are high time that most western sex tourists would go to have sex with underage boys, girls, or go on a wild sex spree. You think that a place that is infested with underage sex, whoredom, sodomy, and every sin under the sun, is going to be ok?

 

The problem is, we only see the disasters, but not the sin on the land where these disasters hit. But people are also saved or survive these disasters when they do hit. Those who are right with God, go to a better place anyway if they die. Mansions in heaven would be waiting for them.

 

Are disasters all Divine punishments on humanity? Not necessarily so, but we can not disqualify the possibility that it is. I leave this point open for discussion on this board.

 

[quote="moaj"

Do you believe that looking at a statue will make you immune to a snake's venom? I remember a particular passage where Isaac or Jonah or somebody makes a deal to buy all of the spotted calves from someone. He thows colored sticks on the ground, and all the cows who see the sticks have spotted calves. Do you believe that looking at an object will effect the coloring of an animal? If God did that before, why isnt He doing that now for believers? Also, does that sound just for the man who had to give up his calves?

 

I'd rather look at the statue then die if I were there and wouldn't take a chance on debating if it could cure me or not! If you would like to argue, and you were in that camp, good luck!!!

 

I'm not familiar with that passage, about the cows, I'll look into it later.

I believe that God has the power to do anything that He wants to do.

If God choose to operate that way, with a statue, or make a donkey talk, in the case of Balaam, then He is going to do it. Since God can do anything He wants because He is God, then that validates everything, because God choose to do it that way.

 

If I had been wandering the desert for 40 years waiting to go to the Promised Land I probably would have complianed, too. So I guess I would have died. It isd interesting that we have free will, but are punished when we excercise it.

 

Well, they did more than just complain. They wanted to kill and stone Moses to death. They were constantly trying to usurp Moses' authority.

Only one person in that whole camp, named Joshua, had any positive thoughts. If he was able to believe in God, and in his chosen Annointed, Moses, why couldn't everyone else? That is why it says that broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, while narrow is the way that leadeth to life. I do not know why it works that way, and wish it didn't. I wish all of Israel thought as Joshua did, and I'm sure God would wish so too.

 

God will not force someone to serve Him. Although I said God can do anything He chooses to do, he will choose not to contradict Himself and His own Word. He said humans have power over the earth, and thus have a free-will. That free-wil will be respected, even if it means that 99% excercise that free-will wrongfully, and 1% exercise it right.

 

That is unjust. What possible crime could I commit that would justify eterenal torment? Simply because I use the very brain God gave me and get an answer He doesn't like? Further, I did not eat the Forbidden Fruit, so why am I "cursed" with a sinful nature? Is it fair to punish the son for the sins of the father? Humans have determined that to be unjust.

 

Rejecting Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died for your sin.

 

God gave His only Son to die for our sin. Why would He do that?

The point is, there is a way to defeat the 'sin' problem, so you can choose to use it. If there is a problem, you deal with it.

 

If my car was broken, I would not argue that it should not have been broken in the first place, I'd take it to a mechanic and fix it.

 

People are genetically born with a 'sin-chip', this 'sin-chip' causes a limited life-expectancy, and the propensity break God's commandments, and do all sorts of evil things. If Adam did not eat the fruit, we would need a few planets to contain all the immortal human's, which no doubt God would have made. We are 'spiritually dead' to the things of God, and need to fix the chip, by being born-again and accepting Christ.

 

While, repairing this 'chip' may not cause us to live forever physically, we will have a much better body, a glorified body, and live an infinately better existance than we are living now. On the converse, if you die with this defective 'chip', with all the sins you have done as a result of this 'chip', you will have an infinately worst existance then you are having now.

 

Why? God can not allow anything unholy into heaven. Hell is prepared for the devil and his angels in the first rebellion. It is too bad that Adam sold out the human race, but Jesus bought back the race. But, there are only two eternal destinations. If you are denied entrance into heaven, the only place is that is left is hell.

 

There are varying degrees of damnation, in order to make the process fair. So people who committed more sin, may suffer under a hotter flame. Other people may suffer with no flame, but may just be in darkness and feel alone forever. Who knows? I'm sure Hitler and Stalin are probably in some of the worst damnation spots.

 

I agree, but it seems that most believers haven't actually read the Bible. Again, after 40 years, some grumbling is to be expecteed, no?

 

Spies were sent to check on the land of Canaan, and they saw giants, and believed they could not conquer them. They charged God sent them to go into the wilderness and die at the hands of these giants, and incited a rebellion against Moses.

 

The 40 years were as a result of a rebellion of the Jews on negative reports of spies who said they could not conquer the land of Canaan. They got punished for that unnecessary rebellion. They should have all listened to Joshua, and they would have been ok.

 

Just like today, people should listen to Jesus, and they too will be ok.

 

How come lying isn't fatal now? Believers lie all the time. Jimmy Swaggart, for one, has lied repeatedly and he is still on television--and believers are still sending him money.

 

Under a strong annointing of the Spirit, like what the early Apostles had, or anything similar to that today, it is still possible.

 

Jimmy Swaggart lied about what?

 

Fine if He wants to kill people who "lie" against the Holy Spirit, but why allow those on the "straight and narrow" to be killed also? If staying true to the Holy Spirit engeners no benefit, why adhere to it?

 

Eternal life in heaven to those who die in the Lord.

 

For those who were killed by the Holy Spirit, they went to hell, because Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, can not be forgiven. They have to pay for that sin.

 

I can't say that I have "felt" the Holy Spirit dealing with me at all.

 

That is because you are dead to the things of God by virtue of the sin nature. The Lord has to deal with your heart.

 

I will pray for you: Father, I ask that you make Jesus real to moaj, and manifest yourself to Him, in Jesus' name I pray, Amen.

 

Do you feel something now? Let us know if you do.

 

I agree. The God described in the Bible is horrible and terrifying.

 

But, John 3:16 "God so LOVES moaj, that He GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that if moaj believes in Him, He will not go to hell, but will enjoy everlasting life in heaven for all eternity".

 

You are alive and well. You have the opportunity to receive everlasting life.

God is good to you, and will manifest Himself to you, so you can look to Him.

God wants you to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, and is not out to condemn people, but offer hope.

 

I would suggest to pick up a obtain a Bible, and study the Book of John, and learn about Jesus Christ. Try to get to know Jesus day by day.

 

I am sorry to hear about your financial difficulties, that is a drag. I don't believe in God, and I would never play the stock market on credit. I have made and probably will make other mistakes, though. I think that even people who listen to the Holy Spirit in everything still make mistakes, don't they?

 

I hope that your financial situtation improves in the New Year, and that your family is healthy and happy.

 

Thank-you. Since you blessed me, so shall you also be blessed in this New Year!

 

I really enjoy reading your post, and am very, very pleased to see that some members of this board are mature enough to engage in a fruitful discussion.

 

People on this board, who disagree with my views, should learn from moaj.

Nobody is being insulted here, and we also have a fruitful discussion.

Doesn't mean, someone has to win or lose an arguement, but ideas are discussed in an open and non-judgemental manner. This is what it is all about.

[Admiral Thrawn]

I was responding to your previous post that we are damned if we don't fear GOD. It is never my intention to twist the word of GOD. I am a believer and because my views do not always match yours does not discount either view. We are here to learn, study and debate. Peace, my brother.

 

On another thread? Where I was talking about Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

You have to fear God to the extent of not Blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

 

You know the scripture says that all sins can be forgiven except that one.

People should not play with it.

[Art_Critic]

You know the scripture says that all sins can be forgiven except that one.

People should not play with it.

 

Is this your opinion or are you warning us ?

[Admiral Thrawn]

In short, EVERYTHING in the Bible about human conduct and behaviour rests on those two dictates. And they are not about hate or judgement or condemnation. They are about love.

 

Jesus also talked about hell in the Gospel too, probably said it more times then referenced anywhere in the Bible.

 

Denying a hell exists, or down-playing it like it was a bad word, is not being totally honest.

[witabix]

Good one witabix.....you all are becoming masters of twisting people around....especially when it comes to personal views of religion.

 

Can't anyone come on here, and express their views, and give a little testimony of their, "place and purpose in the universe" without everyone ripping their opinions apart??

 

Let's grow up people......

 

Admiral is fairly new here, and probably should state he is sharing his views, and what he says is what he believes is right.

 

I should be allowed to agree with him. You should be allowed to disagree with him.

 

BUT, if you disagree with him, state why. Share with us your views, don't tear his views down word for word, after all, you should be bright enough to understand where he's coming from.....

 

There's no need to call him silly, or tell him he's wrong either. You haven't that right........they are HIS views......impossible to own.

 

Ok Moose. I take your point. Well made.

 

I do not intend to twist peoples words. I simply wished to hold them up to him. I believe he is twisting words taken from a book, and twisting them to suit his own world view.

 

He did not appear to be stating opinions. He was telling people that they should fear his god or be lost to eternal damnation. Dress it up anyway you want , that IS what he was saying.

 

That is why I disagree with him.

 

"Can't anyone come on here, and express their views, and give a little testimony of their, "place and purpose in the universe" without everyone ripping their opinions apart??"

 

Indeed thay can.

 

I testify this.

 

There is, was, and never will be a god. In the beginning man made god. Not the other way around. All deity driven religion is about is controlling the masses for the personal ends of the organisation that is currently inventing/interpreting the book/scroll/runes.

 

I do not believe in good or evil as seperate discreet entities or states of being. There is no heaven/hell/nirvana.

 

There is nothing after death except for the effects of your actions during life.

 

I do not murder, steal nor covet. Not because a book tells me not to, but because I can see the value to my society for behaving that way.

 

I do not require to be a member of club that stands for somethong that is clearly incorrect.

 

I hold this view of all religions.

 

I would rather the see the money and effort put into building places of worship used to actually help someone who really needs it. Not so that someone may visit once a week and make themselves feel good about it.

 

How is that so few people can see the difficulty that the enormous wealth of religious institutions poses in the light of their messages of afterlife and salvation.

 

As for place and purpose in the universe. that would be an interesting thing to answer.

 

My place is wherever I am. My purpose? There is none.

 

I am not egocentric enough to think I have purpose, certainly not a pre ordained purpose.

 

We are animals living on a planet. Nothing more nothing less.

[Admiral Thrawn]

The entire New Testement is a description of non-believers being burned, purged, and otherwise destroyed. Also, believers are to shun and persecute those who disagree. That is certainly human conduct and behavior, isn't it?

 

Requesting that you verify Scripture, chapter and verse.

 

This is unfounded.

 

The believers were the ones being burned, purged and killed, both by the religious classes who rejected Christ, and from the Imperial Rome, who demanded everyone worship Cesar as god. So, it is simply not true what you are saying.

 

If you did not worship Cesar, you died.

If you did not stick with the Jews in their rejection with Christ, you lost your job, your family, you were shunned by the community.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Is this your opinion or are you warning us ?

 

That is what Jesus said. All sins can be forgiven, even Blasphemies against God, and the Son of man can be forgiven. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can not be forgiven.

 

I'm leaving this to discussion of what Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit means. Anyone would like to comment?

[HokeyReligions]

 

I would rather the see the money and effort put into building places of worship used to actually help someone who really needs it. Not so that someone may visit once a week and make themselves feel good about it.

 

I am agnostic but I have seen, and continue to witness first-hand, the good that institutions of faith have done for people. Not only providing necessities of physical life, but emotional support and teaching to be self-reliant. There are going to be 'scams' in any organization, but overall I continue to see the good that comes from people of faith donating to the churches of their choice. I've worked in a few myself. Volunteered I should say. There are many, many individuals, families, and groups who would not be able to care for themselves if it were not for those of faith who tithe to their church or give of their time in their God's name. I don't believe in God, but I see the good that comes of other's faith. If all churches were disolved and the money that they garner from their followers were toted up and added to a tax base spread across the masses, it would have more of a negative impact on all of us.

[Moai]

Dude, I've done it. Plenty of times. Gone to studies on it. Also gone through the entire Bible. If you pay attention while you read, the theme throughout the Bible is that God destroyed places where either people were disobeying Great Commandment 1 or Great Commandment 2. Yep, that's right. Often places were destroyed because the inhabitants were being inhospitable to visitors or others - that's what happened in the Sodom & Gomorrah tale.

 

I'm thinking you maybe want to read it again.

 

No, thanks, I have read it more than enough to suit me, but I do often refer to it. God also destroys places who had no idea that Great Commandment 1 or Great Commandment 2 even existed. And neither of those is one of the Ten Commandments. Why would God leave those out of the Top Ten?

 

And I am not aware of an example of God destroying a city for being inhospitable to visitors. Do you have a refernce for me? I know that there was at least one city was destroyed because they were inhospitable to Jesus.