How many of us spent christmas without the love of our life?

[scarletletter]

Well Owl,

I have given this so much more thought than you can imagine. I would love nothing more than to leave my husband. I have wanted to for a couple of years. Actually, we were separated 3 years ago and I let him come back when he lost his job. BIG MISTAKE. It was his decision to leave the first time and he treated me like crap. Now that he is back, he is the most miserable human being I have ever known. He still does not have a job and does not even try to find one. We have talked until I am blue in the face about this. I have tried everything I know to get him to shape up. He verbally and emotionally tears me apart. We havent' had sex in over a year nor do we want to. I haven't left him for several reasons. In my state, because I have a good income and he does not work, I would have to pay him alimony or what is called maintenence. I absolutey refuse to do that. So if he is miserable enough, he can get a job and leave. His feelings don't matter a whole lot to me because of the history that we have and the damage that has been done. I also haven't left because of our 8 year old daughter who adores her dad. I know I am going to have to be strong and do something soon, I just have not had the energy. It is one of my goals for the next year. If he was a good person, I would feel really bad about what I am doing, but you just have no idea what I have been through. I know 2 wrongs don't make a right, but I am doing what I am doing for my own sanity right now.

[scarletletter]

I think that is the smartest thing she has said on this forum so far....it is best that she go away.

[Art_Critic]

I think that is the smartest thing she has said on this forum so far....it is best that she go away.

 

Stop it.. we are not children

[scarletletter]

No, we are certainly not children. This is a grown-up situation and she has no idea what she is talking about when she critisizes me. It's best that she go to a forum for saints...since apparently she is one.

[Art_Critic]

No, we are certainly not children. This is a grown-up situation and she has no idea what she is talking about when she critisizes me. It's best that she go to a forum for saints...since apparently she is one.

 

I was refering to you.. your statement was that of a childs

[scarletletter]

and this is also one of a childs.....I started this tread and if you don't like what you read, move on...

[sparticuss]

Lonely huh?

How lonely?

Lonely enough perhaps to suicide? Because Christmas is the biggest single day of the year, by a long way, for suicides.

 

It's not people seperated from the man or woman they love.

 

It's actually almost exclusivley divorced or seperated dads who can't be with the people that they love most of all. Their children.

 

Drives em to suicide. That real loneliness. Thats real pain.

[Lishy]

and this is also one of a childs.....I started this tread and if you don't like what you read, move on...

 

Enough said!

 

Maybe I know exactly what your situation is and MAYBE you need to get a back bone and get our of your lousy situation for the sake of your child?

 

This IS your thread and you are welcome to it Scarlet, you sound like the kind of person who likes wallowing, so go ahead and wallow!!!!

 

Ps .... Didn't you spend christmas day with the love of your life? YOUR DAUGHTER!!

[Owl]

Scarlet-

 

Take it from someone who's been there...not divorcing because your 8y.o daugther loves he dad isn't the way to go.

 

If you detest him this much, it's all the more reason to divorce instead of staying together. So you pay him 'maintenance'...that has GOT to be better than staying in the situation you've described.

 

Something to think about tho too...and realize that I know that I don't know YOUR case well at all...and admit that up front.

 

But...almost EVERYONE involved in an affair begins a mental process called "re-writing marital history". Basically, they're looking back at their marriage through the lens of the affair...it's a mental self-defense mechanism that helps them to justify the affair in their mind. It's not something that they consciously or intentionally do...again, it's more of a response than anything else.

 

I'm certain that you too are doing so...at least to some degree. My wife did too...she'd claimed (and truly felt) that she hadn't been happy for YEARS...when the kids and I could only see where she'd been unhappy for about that last year leading up to and including the affair. Even looking back, we weren't able to see it. And when we ALL asked her for specifics (the kids, me, the marriage counselor), the ONLY details she could give were in that last year. As we stayed together and sorted things out, the time she could remember feeling unhappy diminished...from several years to a few years...to a few years down to that last year or so.

 

Again, I don't know your situation...but I would honestly think that right now, there is no way you can look 'objectively' at your marriage given your relationship with MM/OM.

 

But, that's neither here nor there. If you TRULY feel there is no love at all in your marriage, and that this marriage is doing nothing buy hurting you and him, then you should take the steps to end it...BEFORE getting involved with someone else. Given that you're already involved, I'd say end your M now...so that you can truly get ready for the next relationship.

 

Will it be hard? Yes. Will your daughter be hurt? Yes. But think about which way she'll be MORE able to understand...that you and her dad don't love each other anymore (but both love her) and need to end the marriage...or that you've been cheating on dad and have decided to go live with OM? (remember, my kids were older than yours and faced this last scenario...and they were NOT understanding about that AT ALL). Which sets the better example for her to follow when SHE's grown up?

 

Believe it or not, I'm one of the most pro-marriage men you'll EVER meet...my wife and I have been married now for 18 years. I do NOT suggest ending a marriage lightly. But from my perspective, the only way to do what's best for EVERYONE in your situation is to get things out in the open, and take the steps needed.

 

Again, no bashes here friend...just my viewpoint.

[Lishy]

That is fantastic advice Owl but I am afraid she does not want to hear that. She only wants to hear from people who also spent christmas without the love of their lives!

 

She doesnt want advice she wants a pity party!

[newbby]

i am in agreement with what some people from both sides of this argument have said. what is not agreeable is the amount of judgementalness going on. do you really believe that without a forum like this there would be less ow in the world? i mean what is the reasoning? do you think that "cheering each other on" makes affairs last longer or more common?

i dont believe that any of the women here deserve these attacks, because they seem like genuine people. some of the most awful, sneaky, devious and cold people i have met think they have high morals. no they would never get involved with a mm, they definetly would not. are they nice people? no they are not. they are devious and cold, they would never get involved with a mm, because that destroys the self perception they hold.

some of the ow in here are genuinely warm people, and so they may be making a mistake, but i doubt that some of you are fit to judge them.

[Touche]

no they would never get involved with a mm, they definetly would not. are they nice people? no they are not. they are devious and cold, they would never get involved with a mm, because that destroys the self perception they hold.

 

Uh....maybe they just recognize that it's wrong and not in their best interests?

[newbby]

i am not talking about EVERY person who is not involved with a mm, touche'. i am pointing out that not all that do are bad people and not all that dont are nice, despite being "moral".

[scarletletter]

Owl...

I totally understand what you are trying to say and you make so much sense. No, it will not be an easy thing to do but I know that it has to be done. I am going to do something about it asap. The relationship that I am in with MM really has no influence on any decision that I have to make. We really don't interfere in each other's lives, as weird as that sounds. We make time for each other when we can. My daughter is the most important thing in my life and always will be. So I really need to focus my attention on how I am going to deal with the divorce and her. I am really not even thinking about what's going to be or not going to be with MM. That is not even important when it comes to how I am going to deal with the divorce. I can tell you that it will be the ugliest divorce around and I need to be in the right frame of mind....I am getting there.

[Owl]

The relationship that I am in with MM really has no influence on any decision that I have to make.

 

Sadly, that's not possible SL.

 

Anytime someone is 'deeply in love' with someone else, that relationship tinges EVERYTHING that they do. It impacts EVERY other relationship they're in.

 

It's how most BS's (betrayed spouses) first begin suspecting an affair. It creates that 'gut feeling' that something is wrong. When you begin investing emotionally into someone else, you stop or greatly reduce the amount you invest in others...especially your spouse if you're involved in an affair. Honestly, this is very very real. That's what creates the 'distance' that most BS's sense...and they don't understand it...until they find out about the affair.

 

Now...there may have been SOME kind of distance between you and your H before this, but it was doomed to grow from the moment you became interested in OM/MM. And I can garauntee that the exact same thing happened in HIS marriage as well. It's unavoidable. Other than extremely shallow people who never learned to invest in anyone very deeply, it's almost impossible for one person to truly devote their love towards two 'lovers'. (This love I'm talking about is NOT what you feel for children, family, friends, etc...). Since you don't strike me as that kind of shallow person, I'd pretty much bet that the same thing had to happen in your marriage as well.

 

And as far as changing your view on your marriage...again, I say it's pretty much inevitable. It's not something done by choice...it's a mental/emotional self-defense mechanism...it's simply something that your psyche does. The longer the affair goes on, the less you invest in your marriage. Additionally, the less VALUE you place on the positives in your marriage. A WS will literally reach a point where they cannot believe that they were ever happy in their marriage...which is often completely contrary to ANY evidence that friends, spouses, family, etc... can ever see. It's not that they hid their feelings from all of these people...it's that they no longer allow themselves to believe that there is anything worth saving in the marriage any longer...it mentally/emotionally frees them from that marriage and allows them to pursue the affair relationship without forcing them to look back on the past.

 

Typically, this 'revised history' will last about two years, or until the affair relationship settles down into a more normal relationship...the time frame when the 'in love' (feelings) phase of the relationship starts to morph into a 'long love' (history) relationship. And this is why most marriages that start with one or the other spouse having been involved as an affair partner will end up divorcing their second spouse (affair partner). Again, not all, but it's one of the reasons why you see so few marriages founded from an affair that last for an extended length of time...very few last longer than the 2-5 year mark. For that matter...it's why you see such a large percentage of NORMAL marriages that fail in this time period as well...because that transition in the marital relationship can be very difficult for people to maintain.

 

Take a look at the book "The Five Love Languages" and read the second chapter on what being "in love" is. Good insights there.

 

Honestly, I'm urging you to consider starting the divorce precess for two reasons. One is exactly what I've been saying...that if you truly cannot stand the person you're married to now, you shouldn't remain there if there's no chance of anything getting better. The other reason is that when most BS's become AWARE of the affair and see that they truly stand to lose the person that they love, it's amazing how hard they'll work to change their behaviors that made them unattractive to the WS (wayward spouse) to begin with. And these changes DO tend to be permanent...even if the WS does not reconcile with them. This would provide your H with a 'wake up call' of extreme measure...it very well could be the catalyst that would turn him back into the man you fell in love with all those years ago.

 

Regardless, I wish you all well. It's a rough road no matter which fork you take...keep posting here. It helps to have disinterested 3rd parties to listen to you sometimes.

[newbby]

owl, if i remember rightly, sl, is with an abusive partner. i may be wrong, but i think this is the case. with this information, would you alter your advice somewhat?

[Owl]

If there truly was abuse in the marriage...if she or her daughter could be potentially placed in danger of physical harm...yes.

 

In that case...if the abuse is real and still remains a possibility, then yes, I would recommend that she leave immediately for a women's shelter or a safe place with a relative, and THEN pursue divorce. And I would suggest that she leave immediately.

 

If the abuse was purely emotional and completely directed at SL and not at her daugther...she might see what happens as a result of her filing for divorce. It's POSSIBLE that her spouse might agree to treatment in order to save the marriage...and again, it's entirely up to her to decide if she'll accept that or not.

 

But...if the abuse is emotional...remember what I said about the 're-writing of marital history? It could be that her view of the abuse is based on this revised history too. My wife was convinced that I was trying to 'take over the house' when she was in the midst of her affair. I had completely taken over all of the household chores or assigned them to the kids, I was completely and totally siding with them on every possible issue, I was totally against her in all things and working to undermine any authority or choice in the house she ever had.

 

The reality in our situation? She'd STOPPED doing all of those household chores. And they still needed to be done. And I had thought that perhaps she'd be happier (remember I didn't know of the affair yet) if I did something to help lighten her load a little bit. So, I assigned chores to the kids and/or did them myself. I began making decisions myself instead of asking her...because anytime I was asking her, I was "bothering her!" and she truly didn't care about those choices anymore. As far as siding with the kids...well, she was so engrossed in her online time with OM that she would ignore anything that was going on and basically lose her temper with ANYONE who interrupted it...and so when she had to deal with the kids, she was doing so ANGRILY...all the time. So yes, I was trying to mitigate her ANGRY punishments with things that fit the crime instead. See the difference? Interestingly enough, once most people either end the relationship or end the affair, they eventually do get to the point where they look back and say "What was I thinking?!?!" But often by that time it's too late for them to choose a new path.

 

My wife reached that "What was I thinking" point about a year after she decided to stay and reconcile...she literally looks back now and wonders if she wasn't a little nuts during that timeframe.

 

I don't know SL's situation well enough to know how much is perception, and how much is reality. None of us here on LS could tell that...and SL really isn't in a position to objectively do so either. It's too bad that she can't seek a nuetral 3rd party like a marriage counselor to help guide her and her family through this stuff.

 

So, does that sort of answer your question and concern Newbby?

[newbby]

yes thanks owl. you werent to know, (and i could still be wrong), and

as with all these situations, it is very hard to judge them or give advice without full facts. of course sometimes a poster does not want to give away too much personal info, which makes things difficult. in these cases perhaps they can ask somebody whose opinion they respect by pm.

[scarletletter]

I really do thank you Owl and Newby for your insight and advice. I do understand what you are saying. My husband is not physically abusive but verbally. I have not been in love with him for at least 5 years. I am going to get out...soon. I agree with everything that you have said except for me staying with him because A: he will never change and B: Even if he did, too much damage has been done. Probably in my subconscious somewhere I am taking it out on him because I can't be with MM all the time. I don't know...really, I think I have been more tolerant of his behavior and eased up on him a bit. Could this be out of guilt? Probably.

[newbby]

i was of the impression he was physically abusive and you were afraid of him. sorry, i must have confused you with somebody else.

it does really seem though, that there is nothing to save here. however, you need to be prepared to be alone completely, and as for the relationship with mm, that may also go, the balance will be completely tipped if you are a single woman.

[scarletletter]

I am afraid of what he will do when I tell him I want a divorce. He has an incredibly violent temper although he has never struck me, he has knocked a few doors down and broken things. Its not going to be as easy as I would like it to be but I do know that it needs to be done whether or not I continue my other relationship or not.

[mslovely97]

I was in the same situation that you were in this Christmas. I was not with the man that I love because he was with his wife and kids. Like you, I knew that this would happen to me as well. I knew that he would be with his kids and his wife, but I felt jealous and lost. I could not help but to cry and feel unhappy and all alone. I just wanted to be with the man I love. We talked that night on the phone and I told him the way that I truly feel. He said it just take time that one day we will be together. Its just not happening quick enough. See its hard me because I work with him. He is a doctor and I am the clerk in the er that he works in. so its very hard for me to see him go or to tell him goodbye. Plus there is an age differnce between the two of us he is 41 and i am 28 so thats an issue as well. but I don't care I love him. It very hard not to be with the one you love on holidays because thats what the holidays are all about. I know how you feel and it feel like **** knowing that it will always be a barrier between the two of us no matter how far we get. And even though we have not ever had sex with each other I still feel a connection between the two of us. The chemistry is just overwhelming. we have kissed and its just totaly magical. All I know is that I love him and I don't want to let him go.

[jen_jen_heartbroken]

I have never thought that this forum belonged here. I think it's gross that people in affairs cheer each other on in what they're doing.

Outcast, hey look...we actually agree on something! Wooo hooo !!!

 

Why don't they change "The Other Man /Woman" forum to "The Homewreckers" forum?

[9Lives]

Outcast, hey look...we actually agree on something! Wooo hooo !!!

 

Why don't they change "The Other Man /Woman" forum to "The Homewreckers" forum?

 

 

That is hilarious!!!!

[9Lives]

I was in the same situation that you were in this Christmas. I was not with the man that I love because he was with his wife and kids. Like you, I knew that this would happen to me as well. I knew that he would be with his kids and his wife, but I felt jealous and lost. I could not help but to cry and feel unhappy and all alone. I just wanted to be with the man I love. We talked that night on the phone and I told him the way that I truly feel. He said it just take time that one day we will be together. Its just not happening quick enough. See its hard me because I work with him. He is a doctor and I am the clerk in the er that he works in. so its very hard for me to see him go or to tell him goodbye. Plus there is an age differnce between the two of us he is 41 and i am 28 so thats an issue as well. but I don't care I love him. It very hard not to be with the one you love on holidays because thats what the holidays are all about. I know how you feel and it feel like **** knowing that it will always be a barrier between the two of us no matter how far we get. And even though we have not ever had sex with each other I still feel a connection between the two of us. The chemistry is just overwhelming. we have kissed and its just totaly magical. All I know is that I love him and I don't want to let him go.

 

I thought I was in big trouble. You are in real big trouble. You need to get a grip...I dont mean that in a negative way. I am with a mm too so I am not judging you but You sound totally gone. Get your feeling in order so you dont get hurt.