Off-time Betrayal

[johan]

I know a few married couples including my sister who got back together after a break up and things turned out better, even though her now husband had "cheated" (dated others) while they were broken up. In fact they broke up many times and now have the strongest marriage of anyone I know of. Usually, the more you break up and then come back together, the stronger the feelings become.

 

As far as the original question, although I am all for honesty, in this scenerio I would do a "don't ask, don't tell" thing. I would not want to know if he dated other women while we were apart. It would be justified since we were broken up and theoretically there were no plans of us having a future together, but I would choose not to know about it. Like wise, I would prefer for him not to ask me about it either, even if he suspected I dated others during the time apart, it would naturally be hurtful to many to hear about it. Some are indifferent and wouldn't care, but most people get hurt by these things.

 

I agree with everything you said, Fun2BMe. I dated a girl very briefly while my ex and I have been apart. I was intimate with that girl, due to my own need to be loved by someone and due to alcohol. I had no feelings for her, and I backed off when I realized what it meant to her.

 

My ex contacted me. She asked if I dated anyone. I confessed and answered her unwise question about how far we went by telling her it was just a kiss. Her love for me is still there. But the kiss feels like a betrayal to her, and she's at a distance again. We even argued about it, which is not a great way to go about reconciling.

 

On the other hand, it seems like our feelings are still all there. Mine are strong. She's very reticent. She says her heart and body are willing, but her mind is stuck. This was always our problem, though. Her mind was always like that, lining up against me. It's compulsion, I think, because I'm not that bad a guy, and I'd willingly kill or die for her.

 

I love her madly. I would reconcile with her in an instant, even foolishly, knowing that it's really her who needs to make the effort to make things work.

[Outcast]

Augh!

 

It's so hard to see people insist on craving things which are bad for them, whether it be drugs, married men/women, or hopeless relationships

[johan]

Augh!

 

It's so hard to see people insist on craving things which are bad for them, whether it be drugs, married men/women, or hopeless relationships

 

How is this bad for me, Outcast? How can you be so sure it's hopeless?

 

I know you've covered some of this ground before, but I need help thinking things through.

[Outcast]

Because throughout your long history, she has been unable to overcome her own issues. This means they are deep-seated and not curable without help - which she refuses. Like the couple of fellows in my life with deep issues, no matter how much you love her, you cannot bring about the healing she needs.

 

It's like a person trying to run a marathon with a broken leg. She'll never overcome it - EVER - and change without help, which she refuses to get. It's a Gordian knot.

 

Some people fall prey to the belief that enough love can repair these people - it's just not the case. People do not make drastic changes unless they get a lot of help. There is no possibility of a miraculous overnight cure. You keep thinking that all she has to do is trust you, but it seems that for her that's as impossible as building the Great Wall all over again singlehandedly in a week.

 

So the expectation that you cling to that she can and will change so that you can have a relationship is exceedingly unrealistic. She perpetually seeks reasons to push you away - something inside her causes that and it's something big and badly broken. Until/unless she receives intensive therapy, it will ever be thus.

 

Being rational seems easy to the rational person; it's a pretty big leap to be able to understand how/why some people just cannot employ rationality. Kind of like my artist friend who can't figure out for the life of her why I can't draw worth a damn - it comes so easy to her but I simply lack the ability. Right now your gf utterly lacks the ability to relate in a healthy way.

[johan]

Thanks, Outcast. It seems to be my nature to gamble on women I love down to the point where the last molecule of possibility blows away.

 

How would you feel about my kissing another girl? Is it cheating? How would you react?

 

Anyone?

[Outcast]

I wouldn't have ditched you in the first place.

 

I guess I would need to hear the reasons. Funny, there was a Friends episode about this thing exactly LOL. I guess at the bottom of my mind would be 'if he misses me so much, how could he want to kiss someone new so soon?'. But I suppose if your story were that kissing her made you realize how unsatisfying it was and how much better I was in contrast, it would be forgivable.

It seems to be my nature to gamble on women I love down to the point where the last molecule of possibility blows away.

 

I think you, like me, have trouble believing that people can be as seriously broken as they actually are. And if you have always believed in love's power to heal, it can be difficult to deal with the fact that that actually ain't so. It can heal some folks who aren't too badly off, but if someone's got major troubles, then it's simply not enough. I was made to face these facts. They were hard to swallow, but until I did I never really understood exactly how sad the state of some humans actually is.

[johan]

I wouldn't have ditched you in the first place.

 

Is that a compliment?

 

I guess I would need to hear the reasons. Funny, there was a Friends episode about this thing exactly LOL. I guess at the bottom of my mind would be 'if he misses me so much, how could he want to kiss someone new so soon?'. But I suppose if your story were that kissing her made you realize how unsatisfying it was and how much better I was in contrast, it would be forgivable.

 

That's exactly what she said. How could I replace her so fast? I told her it wasn't replacing her. It was just a semi-desperate act out of loneliness and convenience. I told her I was drinking. I told her that all it did was bring my feelings for her to the surface. All truth, except it was more than a kiss.

 

I think you, like me, have trouble believing that people can be as seriously broken as they actually are. And if you have always believed in love's power to heal, it can be difficult to deal with the fact that that actually ain't so. It can heal some folks who aren't too badly off, but if someone's got major troubles, then it's simply not enough. I was made to face these facts. They were hard to swallow, but until I did I never really understood exactly how sad the state of some humans actually is.

 

It's complex for me as to why I keep thinking "love will conquer all" for us. It bothers me that her "bad" emotions and thoughts drive her to undermine our relationship. I trust that her love for me is real. I keep believing that allowing us to fail would be one of my life's greatest tragedies. I know she appears "broken". She cannot either forget or forgive. Where other women overlook things and let go, she can't. She just cannot trust me or let things go. And maybe that's smart of her, because she's protecting herself. So you can see what this kiss must be doing to her and me.

 

On the other hand, I know that there are other things she would keep alive and between us.

[Art_Critic]

I'm of the belief that there is no such thing as off time betrayal..

 

Broken up means broken up.

 

There has to be a line drawn as to when your life is your life and you have to go live it.. If you get back together then she should just understand that you saw someone else.

 

If she didn't want you guys to see other people then she should've done whatever she could to make she you guys stayed together

[FreeMe]

Because throughout your long history, she has been unable to overcome her own issues. This means they are deep-seated and not curable without help - which she refuses. Like the couple of fellows in my life with deep issues, no matter how much you love her, you cannot bring about the healing she needs.

 

It's like a person trying to run a marathon with a broken leg. She'll never overcome it - EVER - and change without help, which she refuses to get. It's a Gordian knot.

 

Some people fall prey to the belief that enough love can repair these people - it's just not the case. People do not make drastic changes unless they get a lot of help. There is no possibility of a miraculous overnight cure. You keep thinking that all she has to do is trust you, but it seems that for her that's as impossible as building the Great Wall all over again singlehandedly in a week.

 

So the expectation that you cling to that she can and will change so that you can have a relationship is exceedingly unrealistic. She perpetually seeks reasons to push you away - something inside her causes that and it's something big and badly broken. Until/unless she receives intensive therapy, it will ever be thus.

 

Being rational seems easy to the rational person; it's a pretty big leap to be able to understand how/why some people just cannot employ rationality. Kind of like my artist friend who can't figure out for the life of her why I can't draw worth a damn - it comes so easy to her but I simply lack the ability. Right now your gf utterly lacks the ability to relate in a healthy way.

 

Outcast, that was beautifully said and I couldn't agree more (and I'm one of the damaged ilk).

 

Sorry Johan, Outcast really nailed it.

[Outcast]

Is that a compliment?

 

Yep.

 

I keep believing that allowing us to fail would be one of my life's greatest tragedies.

 

It's not yours to control. You are trying to force life to give you the only outcome you want to affect. Life doesn't work that way. You have to accept that you are powerless to fix this. Pay attention, Johan: IT IS NOT YOURS TO CONTROL. There is no possible way you can alter this situation.

 

I know she appears "broken". She cannot either forget or forgive. Where other women overlook things and let go, she can't. She just cannot trust me or let things go.

 

If you read Dr. Amen's stuff about how the brain works, these are all anterior cingulate gyrus things. My last ex was like that. You do NOT want to live with someone like that. It's hell. And it's one of the harder issues to fix in people.

 

On the other hand, I know that there are other things she would keep alive and between us.

 

Not good enough. This is almost as bad as the woman who stays with the abuser or the OM because it's good some of the time. It's not good enough of the time for you to live with the rest of the time.

[johan]

From your perspective, Outcast, FreeMe, and others, it looks very clear. It is easy from the outside to say the relationship or the girl has no value.

 

I broke up with her four months ago. I gave up and set her free in the belief that she needs to take responsibility. I have had a hard time since then to not second-guess myself or to remember the good things and forget the bad.

 

It is so hard to be strong sometimes, and the key part that continually breaks me down is thinking about my own failures. I forgive her. I don't forgive me. I want her to forgive me. I want her to love me. I need the secret to maintain love and forgiveness for myself so that I can live without hers.

 

Without a heart much more like stone than I have, I am going to continue to suffer.

[Outcast]

the relationship or the girl has no value.

 

Stop misinterpreting. It's not that the girl has no value. It's that she's a Jekyll and Hyde and all the good Jekyll things cannot make up for the Hyde things. The reason some of us can speak to this is that we were in the same sorts of situations and have learned the hard way.

 

to remember the good things and forget the bad.

 

You actually should be doing the opposite. It's pointless to 'forget the bad' when the bad will just keep on happening.

 

It is so hard to be strong sometimes, and the key part that continually breaks me down is thinking about my own failures.

 

Your failure is in your refusing to accept the reality of your situation.

 

I want her to forgive me. I want her to love me.

 

And I want seventeen million dollars and to be a movie star and model. Come ON Johan. You don't get things in life just because you want them.

 

I need the secret to maintain love and forgiveness for myself so that I can live without hers.

 

Please say you don't mean you would want to live with her without love

 

Look, Johan, the hardest thing for me was thinking it was my fault that I couldn't heal him. I was at a conference earlier this year where these sorts of situations were discussed. A shrink who was leading the seminar and who helps people in such situations confessed she still felt like a failure for the same reason. You have to force yourself to accept objective truth: it is not your fault that you cannot achieve the impossible. What you have to do is quit stubbornly refusing to accept that it is in fact impossible.

[pearlsasinger]

I broke up with her four months ago. I gave up and set her free in the belief that she needs to take responsibility. I have had a hard time since then to not second-guess myself or to remember the good things and forget the bad.

 

It is so hard to be strong sometimes, and the key part that continually breaks me down is thinking about my own failures. I forgive her. I don't forgive me. I want her to forgive me. I want her to love me. I need the secret to maintain love and forgiveness for myself so that I can live without hers.

 

Without a heart much more like stone than I have, I am going to continue to suffer.

 

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself. You did not cheat on her. You were broken up. You did something you're not proud of---but you regret it, have apologized for it and have told her this, repeatedly I'm sure.

 

So if you're genuinely sorry and have shown her this--shown her how much you want a second chance---then you are already doing all you can. You cannot take back the past. Furthermore, as bad as the memories might be, you have learned something from it. Learned how much you want to be with her.

 

Tell her you are there to talk about any issues that are holding her back from continuing this relationship. The rest is up to her.

 

If she does decide to give you a second chance, she cannot hold this over your head. She must learn forgiveness, not just for you but for herself.

[FreeMe]

Stop misinterpreting. It's not that the girl has no value. It's that she's a Jekyll and Hyde and all the good Jekyll things cannot make up for the Hyde things. The reason some of us can speak to this is that we were in the same sorts of situations and have learned the hard way.

 

You actually should be doing the opposite. It's pointless to 'forget the bad' when the bad will just keep on happening.

 

Your failure is in your refusing to accept the reality of your situation.

 

And I want seventeen million dollars and to be a movie star and model. Come ON Johan. You don't get things in life just because you want them.

 

Johan,

 

Outcast is right again. You're misinterpreting. She's probably a good person, but she may never be able to have a normal, happy and healthy relationship. She had this problem before she met you and she'll continue to have it if she has other relationships. It has nothing to do with you. She can't trust any man that she's emotionally involved with. It has nothing to do with YOU and therefore YOU cannot fix it or make it right. You're displaying a kind of codependent (although I don't like jargon, it's useful sometimes) personality. You're taking responsibility for someone else's faults and internalizing it and trying to control it and meanwhile, you're not living your life or taking care of yourself. And by taking care of yourself I mean that you're not getting your need for real love and committment fulfilled.

[FreeMe]

Outcast is right again. You're misinterpreting. She's probably a good person, but she may never be able to have a normal, happy and healthy relationship.

Er..."She" refers to your Ex, not Outcast.

[seachange]

Johan - I totally identify with your situation, and having been in a similar position, I want to say that I don't think you betrayed her.

 

My recent ex had similar issues and I've been struggling for months (five or so months now) not to blame myself for not being able to do whatever it was I could have done to help him be well, to save our relationship, etc. etc.

 

A month or so after he broke up with me, he discovered I was looking at online profiles. I didn't really want to date anyone yet, but yeah, I was experiencing profound loneliness and sadness and I was in so much pain. So I looked online (and that's all I did).

 

At one point, when one of us broke NC (it went back and forth) he gave me s*** about the online thing, saying that he thought it was strange, considering how I'd said I felt about him, that I would even be looking around again so soon. With the implication that I must not have felt as deeply, or profoundly, as I had sworn I did.

 

Sigh. Of course, in my state of mind at the time, I had been reading these profiles and thinking how they couldn't compare to him...but it didn't matter. I had to realize that it didn't matter what I said or did; he wasn't interested in building bridges and I couldn't do it by myself.

So what Outcast said really resonates; IMO, realizing that certain things are just not yours to control is by far the hardest lesson in any relationship.

 

But anyway. It's painful to hear you take onto yourself the responsibility for potentially ruining a second chance, when she is the one who is keeping you apart. I understand the impulse to take it on yourself, as the "stronger" and more "able" partner. But it isn't your responsibility to hold everything together by yourself, and you do deserve to get back what you give. Least that's what I tell myself.

 

Art said it succinctly:

 

If she didn't want you guys to see other people then she should've done whatever she could to make she you guys stayed together

[johan]

Johan - I totally identify with your situation, and having been in a similar position, I want to say that I don't think you betrayed her.

 

My recent ex had similar issues and I've been struggling for months (five or so months now) not to blame myself for not being able to do whatever it was I could have done to help him be well, to save our relationship, etc. etc.

 

A month or so after he broke up with me, he discovered I was looking at online profiles. I didn't really want to date anyone yet, but yeah, I was experiencing profound loneliness and sadness and I was in so much pain. So I looked online (and that's all I did).

 

At one point, when one of us broke NC (it went back and forth) he gave me s*** about the online thing, saying that he thought it was strange, considering how I'd said I felt about him, that I would even be looking around again so soon. With the implication that I must not have felt as deeply, or profoundly, as I had sworn I did.

 

Sigh. Of course, in my state of mind at the time, I had been reading these profiles and thinking how they couldn't compare to him...but it didn't matter. I had to realize that it didn't matter what I said or did; he wasn't interested in building bridges and I couldn't do it by myself.

So what Outcast said really resonates; IMO, realizing that certain things are just not yours to control is by far the hardest lesson in any relationship.

 

But anyway. It's painful to hear you take onto yourself the responsibility for potentially ruining a second chance, when she is the one who is keeping you apart. I understand the impulse to take it on yourself, as the "stronger" and more "able" partner. But it isn't your responsibility to hold everything together by yourself, and you do deserve to get back what you give. Least that's what I tell myself.

 

Thanks, seachange. It sounds like your situation was a lot like mine. Maybe I'll have a look at some of your threads.

 

I think that I maybe should have just kept all my activities during the breakup to myself. It's better that she wonder than have actual facts to obsess about. But I think she would be holding the breakup itself in between us. Or something else. I tried to be honest, I did my best. I can't ask for more from myself.

 

I'd like to believe that those who say she is too broken to be with are wrong. But I think it's on her shoulders to prove it. I've done what I can, short of kidnapping her. She and I were partners in so many ways though. We had fun all the time and felt at home together. The feelings are all present. We feel all the love and attraction we had from before.

 

The fact is that during the breakup I was also lonely and I was just looking to be with someone I enjoyed. The problem is that it took a short time for me to realize that that other girl was not the one for me. It made me very anxious about my ex and all my feelings came rushing back in. The other girl made me realize my heart was still hooked on the ex. But the ex can't let go of the other girl. She says I was interested and must have had some attraction and that I was probably trying to date the girl. Well, it's another trap to try to address all that. And again, if she wanted to be with me, she'd work to get past it.

 

But she doesn't want to try to see it from my point of view. She feels betrayed and it doesn't matter what I do or say. I'm an idiot for telling her. But except for one question, I have to tell her the truth when she asks. She's stupid enough to ask. I'm stupid enough to answer. The fact is you end up talking about what you did anyway, while you're catching up. So she'd have to deal with this stuff. If she really wanted to be with me, she'd do what it takes physically, mentally, and emotionally.

[seachange]

Yeah, I think that's the thing - you could have hid it, or you could have told her everything. But in the end, it doesn't actually matter. No matter what you told her, she'd have to want to resolve things enough to meet you halfway. And it's so hard not to second-guess yourself, wondering: what if I had said this, or that, or told her only this part, but not this - but in the end, you're doing yourself a disservice. Because you didn't do anything wrong, and by allowing yourself to be cast as a guilty party when you don't deserve it, you aren't helping the relationship either. That isn't what a healthy relationship is about.

 

Which I'm sure you know, but it's damn hard to see when you're smack in the middle of the emotional storm. All you want to do is keep fighting for the thing you've been fighting for so long. But she isn't fighting, and that's what needs to happen.

 

If only it were possible to show another person what it looks like from your own eyes. (See? It's so simple! Now we can be together!!) But then, that might get boring and too predictable.

[slowlearner]

I can relate so much with this girl .. A misunderstanding caused my beau to go to someone else twice ... and now he is back again... with all the love in the world we had I feel so so very broken ... and I don't think I'll ever be the same.. I sort of feel scared that he'll hurt me again. My baby has lost the best thing he ever had in his life ..... I did nothing to deserve the pain that he caused when he knew I loved him so.

 

Regarding your situation,.. in my mind it's like .. Are you just going to jump in bed with anyone at the sign of any problem or make out with anybody???. It was just too fast and impulsive. It is a character issue. I don't care if you were broken up. Where was the trust to fix your situation instead of getting a fix with someone else...???

 

With all the Love in her heart .. sometimes it is just too much to handle for some .. Sorry.. we are sometimes products of our past .. and so it goes ..

[JS17]

You have to force yourself to accept objective truth: it is not your fault that you cannot achieve the impossible.

You have no control over her feelings or actions, you can not change her. Start believing that things will not change.

[johan]

I can relate so much with this girl .. A misunderstanding caused my beau to go to someone else twice ... and now he is back again... with all the love in the world we had I feel so so very broken ... and I don't think I'll ever be the same.. I sort of feel scared that he'll hurt me again. My baby has lost the best thing he ever had in his life ..... I did nothing to deserve the pain that he caused when he knew I loved him so.

 

She also wonders how I can go to someone else. She swears that this girl and I were dating. She feels very betrayed by it. She said she had chances with guys, but she could never do anything with them because of her feelings for me.

 

After the breakup, it took two months for me to do anything with this other girl. I acknowledge that 1) my feelings were still there for my ex, and 2) I didn't have strong feelings for the new girl. I realized that I would not be able to move on that quickly, so I backed off, but the new girl was still my friend.

 

Regarding your situation,.. in my mind it's like .. Are you just going to jump in bed with anyone at the sign of any problem or make out with anybody???. It was just too fast and impulsive. It is a character issue. I don't care if you were broken up. Where was the trust to fix your situation instead of getting a fix with someone else...???

 

I believed that things were completely over with the ex, and I wasn't allowing myself to think anything else. Is dating wrong? My ex also went on dates, but she claims no touching, kissing, etc. How long is long enough to wait? I mean what if it was a year and I dated the girl after 8 months? Would my ex feel any different about it?

 

If I had any idea that we would be back together, I would have waited. The signals I got were final. As far as I was concerned, my time was my own, and I attempted to move on and failed. I didn't owe her anything. And she could just as easily have called me.

 

With all the Love in her heart .. sometimes it is just too much to handle for some .. Sorry.. we are sometimes products of our past .. and so it goes ..

 

I know. I can't criticize her for her feelings and her fear. I can't go back and fix anything. She keeps saying she wishes we could go back in time and fix it all. So do I.

[seachange]

If I had any idea that we would be back together, I would have waited. The signals I got were final. As far as I was concerned, my time was my own, and I attempted to move on and failed. I didn't owe her anything. And she could just as easily have called me.

 

I feel/felt the same way. The signals are final. He has told me recently (as he told me when we first broke up) to go off and find the right love for me because he couldn't be that man. But he was also incredibly hurt that I might even consider doing just that. To me, that said he wasn't done with the relationship after all (because I wanted to read it that way) - but on the other hand, holding on hasn't helped us get back together either, and it's making me miserable. So, what to do???

 

Basically, if you choose your actions based on your ex, you CANNOT win. She will be upset either way - she doesn't want the guilt and pressure of you waiting for her while she figures herself out, and doesn't want you to move on either.

 

It's not fair to you. Deep down, despite her anger and sense of (unreasonable) betrayal - she probably knows this too. I'm sure that's fueling her emotions. She knows perfectly well she pushed you away. She didn't ask for a "break", she ended it. She wanted to be free, and the only way to do that was to free you, too.

 

I am sure she knows this, Johan, despite her anger.

The time to move on - have new relationships - will be when you feel ready. Regardless of her reaction.

[johan]

I just really hate what has happened. It seems like I can't make any good choices at all. When it comes to relationships, no matter what I do, I find I'm letting myself down somehow.

 

I broke up with her, by the way.

[seachange]

Yeah, sorry, I realized that after I posted and it was too late to edit my post.

[Outcast]

But he was also incredibly hurt that I might even consider doing just that. To me, that said he wasn't done with the relationship after all (because I wanted to read it that way) - but on the other hand, holding on hasn't helped us get back together either, and it's making me miserable.

 

There is something perverse about humans - even though we break up with someone who is not good for us, we are like a dog with a bone - we want them to still want us anyway and it bothers us when they move on. We know we should not be together and that they'll just cause us grief, but still we want them to want us. It's an ego thing, I think, rather than any sort of sign of undying love. Don't mistake the two.