Can't Get Over the Hatred

[tzorno]

Was married for 30 years.  She cheated and left.  During the process, she was downright evil and burnt every bridge there was to burn.  I have two adult children and a granddaughter.  She told the kids in the kitchen one night that she didn't care about them and that she just needed out.  She drank to the extent that she was drunk for an entire two month period.  The guy she was cheating on me with is a piece of garbage.  We knew each other, but not well.  He has been in prison, beat women before, hurt people in one way or another his entire life, but he has money.  His dad left him with a business and so forth.  The guy has never worked or earned anything on his own except his reputation for being one of the most disliked people in the area.

Anyways, it's been over two years now and I can't stop hating either of them.  I seriously wish both of them nothing but the worst for the remainders of their lives.  My son is 27 and hasen't talked to his mother in over two years.  He has blocked her from any kind of communications.  If a letter or card is sent, they go directly into the garbage without being opened.  He's getting married in two weeks and she isn't invited.  He also will not allow her any access to the granddaughter.  My problem is that i'm happy about all of that.  My daughter is 26 and is very religious so she does have interactions with her mother, but it's strained.  She's convinced that she can reach the person that she thought her mother was before everything happened.  

I've been told by a million people to forgive her and let it go, but I can't.  I realize it's a lot of wasted energy, but I don't know how to get over it.  I believe i'll hate her and be bitter until my last breath.  The mental and financial loss just won't let me drop it.  I live in a small town, but have managed to avoid her or talk to her since the divorce.  I doubt my son will ever speak to her again or allow her to see her granddaughter or any future grandkids he might have.  

How do some of you do it?

 

 

[Gebidozo]

Sorry this is happening to you.

You need more time.

You don’t just forgive and let go because it’s the right thing to do. You’re hurt and you must process that hurt and fully heal. Don’t pressure yourself. You’ll forgive her when you’re ready. You aren’t ready yet. Rather than forcing yourself to forgive her, try not to think about her for a while. Focus on your happiness with your children and other bright aspects of your life. 

[mark clemson]

I agree, I've had some people do things I strongly, strongly resented/hated them for. When it's really that bad and truly hatred, processing that to the point of forgiveness takes me a lot more than 2 years. For me I think it's more like 10.

It's possible, due to the length of time you were together viz what she did you may never forgive her fully. (IMO) that's ok - you'll forgive her to the extent your brain allows you to.

Be sure you're "moving on" by doing other things with your life, so ruminating on her actions doesn't become more of a habit than it probably naturally will need to be for you to "process" the situation.

GL!

Edited April 5 by mark clemson

[Lotsgoingon]

You probably need some therapy, so you can systematically process what happened to you and your ex. You can't just snap your fingers and forgive her without first (or also) making sense of what happened in the 30 years you were together. 

Two years after her leaving, seems to me you should have some insight into her and why she fled (why in her mind she fled). Having some insight can help even if you don't excuse her actions. 

Any chance your ex had some late-breaking mental illness? Or mental illness that she was able to function with for a long time until something changed and she fell into the n abyss? You mention she drank herself drunk. So was she an alcoholic? Something happened at the 30-year mark. She didn't just wake up one day and become a bad person. It would help you (especially if you want to forgive) to figure out what might have happened.

Also, you want to figure out your role in this relationship. This is not to blame you--not at all. But I'm someone who grew up in a household full of mental illness. That led me to overlook signs of illness and instability in some people I dated. I wonder if there is some way you just ignored her behavior before she left. Was she really an ideal person before she fled? I tend to doubt it. I'm guessing you overlooked bad behavior long before she fled. 

So no, you can't forgive unless you go deeper in figuring out what happened. 

[basil67]

On 4/5/2024 at 5:16 AM, tzorno said:

I've been told by a million people to forgive her and let it go, but I can't.

How is it that quite a number of people know what's in your mind and tell you what to do?  Are you venting about her to them or asking their advice about your feelings?  If it's the former, they are probably either/both tired of hearing about it and concerned for your mental health.  If it's the latter, they probably believe that you asking for advice is a cry for help and they are doing their best to answer your question.

I agree that it's only two years ago and it's too soon to be able to let go of the hatred and anger.  There's someone who's estranged from our family who we all hate, but it's now been 15 years or so since we've heard from them and they've actively caused harm and so the active hatred, anger and fear have very much faded. We'll all breath a quiet sigh of relief if we hear they've died, but time really does help fade the feelings. 

Give it time.  Try to not feed it, but don't worry about the fact that your feelings are so raw.  It's normal

Edited April 5 by basil67

[Will am I]

The first thought that comes to mind is this:

you already won (on the moral level and the family relationship level). Why stay mad if you’re victorious?

[tzorno]

Thanks for all the responses.  A little more background.  Yes, she has some bi-polar tendencies as her father was mentally challenged (pc for being half nuts).  She always yelled and complained a lot, but I just thought that was her personality.  We never had friends for long as she would run them off or say something that offended them.  In the 30 year period, we never had that best friends, other couple that hung out or got together.  

I do take account that my job wasn't the easiest on the marriage.  I worked 12 hour midnight shifts and only had every other weekend off and had to work many holidays so I missed out on a lot and thats on me.  I was providing for the family, but wasn't around a lot.

Going forward - she was a nurse and opened up her own business with a friend and two hired doctors.  ten years went by and the place got shut down by the feds stating the doctors were selling drugs outside of business hours and she was an accomplish.  The doctors and business partner went to prison.  I borrowed 30k from my mother to hire the best lawyer I could and kept her out of prison, but she lost her nursing license and we lost her income.  She jumped around to a few different low paying jobs and then settled in at a bank as a teller in town.  At this point she became an alcoholic.  I wasnt aware of how much she was drinking as she hid it fairly well.  Anyways, a couple girls she worked with were bad news and were always cheating on their husbands and chasing cash.  She fell into the trap and started hanging out with them.  The guy she is with now pursued her nonstop and gave her money, presents, and so forth.  Pretty much the end of the story.

I tried to save the marriage for 6 months doing everything I could, but I knew she was never going to stop.  My mother passed right before she left, so not only did she get the 30k for the lawyer out of her, but she also took my inheritance which was about 100k.  The kicker is she gets half of the gas royalty checks I receive for the rest of her life or until they stop due to my mother taking bad legal advice and naming all the spouses of the siblings as beneficiaries on the land deeds.  I was stuck with my daughters school loan and a couple other outstanding loans she took out that equate to about 40k, so its been tough.

No, i'll probably will never forgive her.

 

 

[OldManThinking]

2 hours ago, tzorno said:

Thanks for all the responses.  A little more background.  Yes, she has some bi-polar tendencies as her father was mentally challenged (pc for being half nuts).  She always yelled and complained a lot, but I just thought that was her personality.  We never had friends for long as she would run them off or say something that offended them.  In the 30 year period, we never had that best friends, other couple that hung out or got together.  

I do take account that my job wasn't the easiest on the marriage.  I worked 12 hour midnight shifts and only had every other weekend off and had to work many holidays so I missed out on a lot and thats on me.  I was providing for the family, but wasn't around a lot.

Going forward - she was a nurse and opened up her own business with a friend and two hired doctors.  ten years went by and the place got shut down by the feds stating the doctors were selling drugs outside of business hours and she was an accomplish.  The doctors and business partner went to prison.  I borrowed 30k from my mother to hire the best lawyer I could and kept her out of prison, but she lost her nursing license and we lost her income.  She jumped around to a few different low paying jobs and then settled in at a bank as a teller in town.  At this point she became an alcoholic.  I wasnt aware of how much she was drinking as she hid it fairly well.  Anyways, a couple girls she worked with were bad news and were always cheating on their husbands and chasing cash.  She fell into the trap and started hanging out with them.  The guy she is with now pursued her nonstop and gave her money, presents, and so forth.  Pretty much the end of the story.

I tried to save the marriage for 6 months doing everything I could, but I knew she was never going to stop.  My mother passed right before she left, so not only did she get the 30k for the lawyer out of her, but she also took my inheritance which was about 100k.  The kicker is she gets half of the gas royalty checks I receive for the rest of her life or until they stop due to my mother taking bad legal advice and naming all the spouses of the siblings as beneficiaries on the land deeds.  I was stuck with my daughters school loan and a couple other outstanding loans she took out that equate to about 40k, so its been tough.

No, i'll probably will never forgive her.

 

 

Reading your posts, and the rest of the thread, I'm struck by a thought - what is forgiveness to you?

My guess - a complete assumption on my part - is that the issue you have is that you continue to ruminate on what happened.  You're angry at her, upset.  And, taking you at your word, that is completely understandable.  She betrayed you and the family, she committed a heinous act and has shown no remorse.  She stuck the knife into you, and she didn't pull it out, it stayed there in your belly, and it continues to hurt.

What occurs to me is - what is the need for forgiveness?  She doesn't deserve forgiveness.  Forgiveness, in this case, can help you, but won't have any impact on her.  That's why I ask the question - what is forgiveness for you?  Stopping the rumination?  Stopping thinking of her and what she did? 

Are all the legal issues sorted?  If not, press on with those.  If yes, then mostly it's done, and it's time for you to draw a line and throw that part of your past behind you.  I appreciate that is easier said than done.  However, you appear to have a large family, with grand kids.  All the time you spend hating on your wife is taking time and thoughts from them.  Go give the grand kids a hug and take them out for some fast food.  Start again with an eye to the future, not with one foot in the past.

[basil67]

The way your opening post is written, I thought she'd flipped a switch.  But apparently she's been unstable and making bad decisions for the duration of your marriage...and possibly before.  

Perhaps the problem is that you're angry at yourself for choosing to marry and have children with her.  Or for not leaving and applying for full custody of the children due to her instability. I wonder if you have to make peace with yourself before you can let this go

[Lotsgoingon]

OK, hold on. Your wife showed consistent TERRIBLE judgment and behavior. Not here and there. Consistent and persistent instability and wow, seeming criminality. 

Why do you even want her to stay? She cannot be a good partner. That's clear. 

So being angry at her is a bit strange--in that she never was consistent and loving, it seems to me. She scared away all friends. Dude, why did you stay married to someone like this? Part of your anger is really anger at yourself. It was there all along.

There is a term in investment called "unrealized losses." You got a stock worth $100 a share. It goes down to $10 a share. As long as you don't sell, the loss is on paper right. You can hold onto the hope that the stock price will rise. People get caught all the time because a stock goes from $100 to $50, and they don't sell--because they don't want to fully admit and accept the loss. And the stock keeps going down and down. When finally the stock goes so low, to like $10, they sell and it's at that point that the real pain and hurt and sense of loss and failure truly sinks in. 

It strikes me that your wife was always trouble--but as long as you were with her, she was an unrealized loss. You could still maintain hope that all your hard work and covering for her and pretending everything is normal would turn things around. Well, she left and now you are facing real losses. The hope for her turnaround is gone. And you feel defeated. Well yes, I get it---I had a mentally ill spouse and put all kinds of term and energy and patience and things still did not work out. 

I don't mean to blame you except to say that your ex always behaved badly. You absolutely cannot say her bad behavior is a surprise. Logically you should be no angrier now than you were at her chasing away friends and getting into criminal trouble or becoming alcoholic. 

If I hang out with bank robbers and muggers, it makes no sense for me to get angry when they rob banks and mug people. You had power to leave her. Why didn’t you leave her? You're complaining that she left you when all indications are that you should have left her--LONG time ago! 

Why would you be disappointed in the slightest that she has left? I think you have finally faced the losses. Your hopes for her fixing herself with all your patience—those were delusions. At least now, you can live in reality without all her problems.

 

Edited April 9 by Lotsgoingon

[tzorno]

Good points from all of you and before I answer a couple of questions, I should explain myself.  I truly did love her.  I took her bad side with the good and was happy enough.  I thought it would be me and her against the world until the end.  Nobody saw it coming and nobody believed it could ever happen.  We were inseparable.  The perfect couple.  I suppose that's one of my biggest issues,,,i'm still in disbelief that she could do that to me.  I never would have thought in a million years it would happen.  I loved her.  I don't want her back, but I loved her.

Forgiveness to me is losing the weight that resides in my chest.  Its always there and its exhausting.  I just want the feeling that she's indifferent to me.  Somebody I don't care about, but when somebody talks about her or I think of her, the anger takes over.  I believe a big problem is there are too many triggers right now.  Every month i'm sending checks to pay off her car, motorcycle, and whatever else.  My daughters school loan that i'm responsible for although the ex promised to pay and bailed on that.  And then theres the small town gossip I can never escape.  I'm hoping it'll ease up some when the bills are finally paid off and I can start rebuilding.  Might not though.

I guess my biggest issue is that i'm still in denial that she actually did what she did after 30 years being together.  It still hurts and if it can't be love, it's got to be hate.   

[Will am I]

I think you got stuck in your grief recovery process.

It happens, many people find themselves unable to move on after grieving a lost one (and a lost relationship is similar to a deceased person close to you, at least in the sense that both require a grieving process).

There are counselors who treat this and they are successful. Don’t live the rest of your life stufk like this.

[Lotsgoingon]

6 hours ago, tzorno said:

 I truly did love her.  I took her bad side with the good and was happy enough.  I thought it would be me and her against the world until the end.  Nobody saw it coming and nobody believed it could ever happen.  

OK, you loved her. Well yes, we can pick foolish people to love. "Love" doesn't solve anything if the other person's life is creating havoc and chaos. You're speaking of "love" with a young teenager. Nobody saw her bad behavior coming? According to your initial post, her bad behavior was there from the beginning. A spouse chases away all possible friends---you can't a good relationship with that happening. Sorry, you were just lost in some fantasy. We need friends. They are essential to thriving, not some unimportant add-on.

Why weren't you furious with her about chasing away possible friends? That was the time to be angry. 

[tzorno]

I think I really am stuck in the grieving process.  Its like I dont know any other way to act or feel.  Strange.  I never looked at it like that.  Thanks for that insight.  

As for her being the person she is and why I put up with it,,,,,,,,I don't know.  After she left, it was overwhelming how many old friends and people came out of the woodwork saying they were sorry they never came around, but they all hated her.  Unfortunately, I think I was married to a narcissist for 30 years and wasn't aware of it.  Everybody else saw it, but I guess I was blinded by love.  So many told me not to be mad at the guy who she's with now and to send him a thank you card instead.  

Honestly, this has been a real eye opener.  So much good advice and insight.  I'm glad I found this place and spoke up.  Thanks to everybody.  This definitely helped.  I'm looking at things differently at the moment.

[Lotsgoingon]

OP, I hear you.

I used to get deeply involved with people who had serious problems and I would almost automatically make excuses for them. 

In my case, I grew up around a lot of mentally ill people in my family ... and the family dynamics just had lots of problems. I basically didn't know I could break up with people. Didn't know I had a right to stay with my own feelings. And I was used to a lot of crazy behavior, so when I encountered odd behavior with a partner, my instinct was to contort myself around the person. 

So back to your anger. OK, let yourself be angry, but let that anger expand to lots of her behavior, not just that she left you (which should turn into a gift.)

BTW: make sure you aren't giving her all kinds of support because you're being "nice." Are you legally required to support her? Did you check with your own divorce attorney? Something tells me that just as you overlooked her bad behavior, you might be overlooking that you don't have to be "nice" her to right now. You should be paying NOTHING for any of her legal expenses, for example. But other expenses.

I recommend you go check with a divorce attorney just to see if you have to keep supporting her in ANY way. 

[tzorno]

I'm not being nice and supporting her in any way by choice.  I was ordered to pay everything that I am.  It could have been worse.

Honestly, divorce laws need to change.  Women always win.  It's why women initiate divorce 80% of the time.  They know they are going to win.  It's not the 50's anymore.  The laws need to change.

 

[Will am I]

I partially agree about the divorce laws. 
 

In traditional marriages there is a certain trade off between one partner providing financially and the other one doing most of the “care tasks”. That includes anything from cooking and cleaning to keeping the social agenda alive and maintaining family relationships. If yoj divorce out of such a relationship, you will find that the financial providing goes on for a long time in the form of spousal support payments, whereas the care tasks  do not. I understand how that would feel unfair and unbalanced.

I do not support the more general statement that “women always win” in family court because a lot of these stories have a very different narrative if you look from a different perspective. 
 

much of the hurt that divorced men experience from family court decisions doesn’t trace back to female-biased courts but rather to the choices that were made during the marriage.

[tzorno]

If the laws don't favor the woman, why is it that they initiate 80% of all divorces?  It's because they know it's a big payday.  Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree.  There are rare cases where the woman was the bread winner and pays or she may have been an addict or something and lost custody of the kids, but like I said, it's rare.  The divorce laws are set up so that a woman can cheat or do whatever and she's going to take the man to the cleaners everytime.  The court doesn't care if the woman is Satan, she's still going to take half of everything and make out like a bandit.  Most of the times they shack up with another guy thats going to provide for them anyways.  They need to change.

Much of the hurt from a divorce come's from the financial struggles the man finds himself in after the court awards the woman with damn near everything.  Just ask my bank account.  On average, it takes a man about 5 years to recover financially and many times its longer than that.
 

Edited April 11 by tzorno
Addition to post

[basil67]

2 hours ago, tzorno said:

 The court doesn't care if the woman is Satan, she's still going to take half of everything and make out like a bandit. 
 

First of all, if you're in a country which has no fault divorce, a person doesn't get penalised for being an arse.  And "taking half of everything' is actually quite a reasonable split of a partnership where both contribute

Have you read outside of your own thread?  There's another thread going at present with a woman in an abusive relationship who can't leave because she can't afford to.  And I've just listened to a podcast about women who admit to staying for no other reason than the financial hit of divorce would hit them too hard.  

As for women being the initiator of more divorce, I would argue that it's simply because women can't be bothered putting up with a s*** marriage.  Look at your own marriage for example:  Your ex wife sounded horrible, but you stayed anyway.  I bet your friends would have 100% backed you had you decided to leave her long ago.  Leaving her would have been entirely justified, so perhaps men should be stepping up more often to leave instead of staying in a marriage where he's been treated badly.

[Will am I]

I sense your hurt in these words @tzorno.

And like I said, I partially agree with the notion that in traditional marriages women get a more favorable deal. They get to stop playing their parts whereas the men are ordered to continue theirs. The whole care vs moneh exchange where the judge will award spousal suppprt but will not tell the other party to continue housekeeping.

But there are statistics that paint a different picture. After a number of years divorced men recover financially whereas divorced women take a permanent hit to their economic situation. That’s because spousal support ends and career gaps and pay differences.

As for women filing for divorce: yes they do in about 70% or all divorce cases. And indeed economics are a factor because that percentage is even higher in women with college degrees. So being able to afford leaving definitely seems to be a factor.

But I don’t believe women are completely financially motivated. I think that as men we tend to stay in bad relationships and take like day by day and survive and numb outselves with long work hours and alcohol. Until one person faces the longer term picture and pulls the plug. 

Men and women respond very differently to the circumstances in a marriage that’s falling apart but that doesn’t put the guilt on the women. We have an equally big part in screwing up marriages.

I’m writing all this because seeing the picture from both sides and taking accountability is integral part of healing. Anger is a stage of grief, don’t stay stuck.

[basil67]

20 minutes ago, Will am I said:

They get to stop playing their parts whereas the men are ordered to continue theirs. The whole care vs moneh exchange where the judge will award spousal suppprt but will not tell the other party to continue housekeeping.

If a couple agrees to have one party stay at home to do the domestics, be there for the kids and the old people, they do so with the knowledge that the earning potential of the nonworking spouse drops through the floor.  But during this time, the working person keeps rising through the ranks and comes home to find the dinner being cooked, the kids picked up and cared for, the parties organised, the shopping done, the house clean, the Xmas gifts purchased, the parents have been taken to the doctor. 

Should the person who's been the at home support for all those years walk away with virtually nothing because domestic work isn't valued?

We don't have spousal support where I live, but we do have women staying for the money.

 

Edited April 11 by basil67

[Will am I]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

If a couple agrees to have one party stay at home to do the domestics, be there for the kids and the old people, they do so with the knowledge that the earning potential of the nonworking spouse drops through the floor.  But during this time, the working person keeps rising through the ranks and comes home to find the dinner being cooked, the kids picked up and cared for, the parties organised, the shopping done, the house clean, the Xmas gifts purchased, the parents have been taken to the doctor. 

Should the person who's been the at home support for all those years walk away with virtually nothing because domestic work isn't valued?

We don't have spousal support where I live, but we do have women staying for the money.

 

I appreciate this perspective. 

From an financial point of view you would state that the arrangements during marriage incurred labour cost beyond what is compensated by providing during the married years. The spousal support payments post divorce could be seen as payments on the remaining debt.

I appreciate that it introduces a sense of fairness and accountability. @tzorno try to open up to these different perspectives because understanding the different sides to a story is a powerful tool to move beyond the anger stage.

[basil67]

 

30 minutes ago, Will am I said:

I appreciate this perspective. 

From an financial point of view you would state that the arrangements during marriage incurred labour cost beyond what is compensated by providing during the married years. The spousal support payments post divorce could be seen as payments on the remaining debt.

I appreciate that it introduces a sense of fairness and accountability. @tzorno try to open up to these different perspectives because understanding the different sides to a story is a powerful tool to move beyond the anger stage.

With the rising cost of living, very few women can afford to quit work anyway.  In my suburb, there is a dearth of young mothers chatting after the school drop off as they've all rushed off to work.  Surely the split of assets would be closer to 50/50 in this case. 

[Will am I]

Here in Europe the asset division is not influenced by income.

Essentially each party gets 50% of assets and 50% of debt, unless prenups are in place.

Differences in income (/earning ability) and expenses are generally compensated through spousal support and child support payments.

 

[tzorno]

6 hours ago, basil67 said:

First of all, if you're in a country which has no fault divorce, a person doesn't get penalised for being an arse.  And "taking half of everything' is actually quite a reasonable split of a partnership where both contribute

 

And why shouldn't a person be penalized?  If a person is willing to act like an arse and risk losing what they have then why shouldn't there be consequences?  The whole premise of 'no fault' is insane to me.  It grants people the right to be a crappy human beings and rewards them for it afterwards.  It's crazy.  Divorce and cheating is basically a social norm now due to it.  

I don't know the story of the woman who can't afford to leave her marriage, but if she wasn't the bread winner, she's doing something wrong.