Can't Get Over the Hatred

[Els]

You really need to get mental health assistance here, pronto. You're unraveling and honestly you sound mentally unstable at this point. Being resentful towards your ex-wife is probably somewhat normal, but generalizing to half of the world's population because they share the same genitals as your ex is not.

A therapist will give you tools to to work through the negative emotions and to get to a healthier place in your life. However, you need to allow them to do so.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, tzorno said:

So yes, I believe there should be some consequences or measurement when it comes to the asset division. 

The only people that “win” if / when divorce laws do try to “punish” one party are the lawyers. 
 

The first key is to select a good partner. Know their core values before choosing to marry. Don’t let your penis do the picking. 
 

Cheating is not illegal, nor should it be. And as much as people think it’s infidelity that ruins the marriage, it could be argued that a ruined marriage leads to infidelity. Not saying it’s right, but whether the marriage ends before infidelity or after, does it really matter?

 

You need to stop blaming women  for anything. Your ex, of course seems like was a terrible human being. That you chose, for whatever reason, to hitch your wagon to and join finances with. Perhaps she did a complete 180 at some point, but more likely you ignored all the flags that showed her true (lack of) character. Perhaps a lot of anger you have is towards yourself for making that choice.

[tzorno]

24 minutes ago, Els said:

Being resentful towards your ex-wife is probably somewhat normal, but generalizing to half of the world's population because they share the same genitals as your ex is not.

A therapist will give you tools to to work through the negative emotions and to get to a healthier place in your life. However, you need to allow them to do so.

Explain please.  What am I generalizing?  I'm just speaking from my experiences and actual data.

Time is my therapist.  It's all I can afford.

[tzorno]

59 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Cheating is not illegal, nor should it be.

What?  I'm sorry, but how can you defend cheating?  It's one of the 10 major sins.  People got stoned to death for it in the Old Testament.  This is the exact thing I referred to when speaking how very few people have morals anymore and how marriage vows and honesty don't apply to today's society.  Accepting cheating as a normal behavior is just insane.  This is why evil prevails over good so often in todays world.

Cheating absolutely should be illegal.  Do you realize how many people get hurt when a person cheats?  It robs the partner of being able to trust anybody or love anybody like they should be able to.  It robs the children of that unconditional love as they view the cheating parent as somebody who is a bad person and somebody they can't trust anymore.  It robs the family of ever viewing you as the same.  Friends lose trust.  The list goes on.

Cheaters are the worst human beings in the world.  They value nothing or anybody but themselves.  They are weak and selfish.  All cheaters should have a reservation to Hell.  There is a right and wrong way to end a relationship and cheating is not the right way.  If my ex-wife didn't cheat on me and just left me because she fell out of love, I would have lunch with her tomorrow and so would her kids.  As is, that will never happen and I doubt her own son will ever speak to her again yet allow her any access to her grandchild or future grandchildren.  He's getting married Saturday and his own mother isn't invited.  That's what cheating gets you.

[Will am I]

I’ll throw in an ancient Dr. Phil quote:

Time heals nothing. It’s what you do with that time that matters.

 

So far, you seem to be justifying and rationalizing your anger towards your ex wife. And generalizing into a rather grim view of women.

I’m not even sure if you want to let go of the anger at this point. 

The tragic thing is: this road can go on forever until you decide to take a turn. 

[basil67]

3 hours ago, tzorno said:

I want to be able to give unconditional love and trust to a partner again

....................................

 She always yelled and complained a lot, but I just thought that was her personality.  We never had friends for long as she would run them off or say something that offended them.  In the 30 year period, we never had that best friends, other couple that hung out or got together.  

I do take account that my job wasn't the easiest on the marriage.  I worked 12 hour midnight shifts and only had every other weekend off and had to work many holidays so I missed out on a lot and thats on me.  I was providing for the family, but wasn't around a lot.

Going forward - she was a nurse and opened up her own business with a friend and two hired doctors.  ten years went by and the place got shut down by the feds stating the doctors were selling drugs outside of business hours and she was an accomplish.  The doctors and business partner went to prison.  I borrowed 30k from my mother to hire the best lawyer I could and kept her out of prison, but she lost her nursing license and we lost her income.  She jumped around to a few different low paying jobs and then settled in at a bank as a teller in town.  At this point she became an alcoholic.  I wasnt aware of how much she was drinking as she hid it fairly well.  Anyways, a couple girls she worked with were bad news and were always cheating on their husbands and chasing cash.  She fell into the trap and started hanging out with them.  The guy she is with now pursued her nonstop and gave her money, presents, and so forth.  Pretty much the end of the story.

Ah, the 'unconditional love' thing this explains so much!   It explains why you overlooked so many things which your mates could see clearly.  Unconditional love is only healthy between parent and child.  And even then, a parent might still love a child, but not like them much - or be terribly disappointed at their life choices. 

On the other hand, romantic love absolutely should have the basic condition that they are a good, kind and respectful partner.  Read the quoted above, the very first paragraph should have been a deal breaker for you, let alone tolerating the rest of it.  If you had managed your own boundaries better, you would have left her loooong before she cheated. 

Instead of ruminating on the fact that women leave marriages more often than men, start figuring out why YOU didn't leave your wife long before you got so hurt.  Heck, perhaps there were warning signs way back before you even had kids???

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, tzorno said:

What?  I'm sorry, but how can you defend cheating? 

Who’s defending cheating? It’s a terrible thing to do. But it shouldn’t be illegal. People do a lot of terrible things that aren’t (and shouldn’t) be illegal.

 

You don’t yet understand that your suffering now, and holding onto this hate and anger, is your own doing. Your ex is completely irrelevant. If you want to keep suffering then hold onto that hate. You’re the only one paying the price for it.

 

[tzorno]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

Ah, the 'unconditional love' thing this explains so much!   It explains why you overlooked so many things which your mates could see clearly.  Unconditional love is only healthy between parent and child.  And even then, a parent might still love a child, but not like them much - or be terribly disappointed at their life choices. 

On the other hand, romantic love absolutely should have the basic condition that they are a good, kind and respectful partner.  Read the quoted above, the very first paragraph should have been a deal breaker for you, let alone tolerating the rest of it.  If you had managed your own boundaries better, you would have left her loooong before she cheated. 

Instead of ruminating on the fact that women leave marriages more often than men, start figuring out why YOU didn't leave your wife long before you got so hurt.  Heck, perhaps there were warning signs way back before you even had kids???

I never thought about the 'unconditional love' aspect like you mentioned.  I did though.  Isn't that normal in all marriages?  I took vows and they meant something to me.

[tzorno]

2 hours ago, Will am I said:

I’ll throw in an ancient Dr. Phil quote:

Time heals nothing. It’s what you do with that time that matters.

 

A quote from the great Bill Burr

Women are paid to have kids and leave marriages

 

I'm sure time will heal the anger.  Especially when I no longer have to pay her loans.

 

[tzorno]

12 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Who’s defending cheating? It’s a terrible thing to do. But it shouldn’t be illegal. People do a lot of terrible things that aren’t (and shouldn’t) be illegal.

 

You don’t yet understand that your suffering now, and holding onto this hate and anger, is your own doing. Your ex is completely irrelevant. If you want to keep suffering then hold onto that hate. You’re the only one paying the price for it.

 

I know i'm holding onto the hate.  I admit that.  I just don't know how to stop holding onto it.  You speak as if it's so easy.  Like hitting a light switch.  I honestly feel I have to exhaust myself of it and I believe in time I will, but until then, i'm still looking for answers.  Closure would be nice.  Being able to say what i've wanted to for so long, but I know that will never come.

Edited April 16 by tzorno
Addition to post

[basil67]

2 hours ago, tzorno said:

I never thought about the 'unconditional love' aspect like you mentioned.  I did though.  Isn't that normal in all marriages?  I took vows and they meant something to me.

Yes, vows are important and both parties should do all they can to preserve the marriage.  But when it becomes clear that one is married to the wrong person, self preservation is even more important than vows.   

If one of your children was in a terrible marriage and their partner was making no moves to address the issue, would you advise them to stay because of vows?  

 

[Gebidozo]

7 hours ago, tzorno said:

I find that crappy people usually never get their dues or karma they deserve.  They just keep being crappy while society and decent people are forced to tolerate it.  That also makes me angry.  I told my friend (a therapist ironically enough) that I was going to try the crappy person route since they almost always seem to come out on top.  He said I couldn't because that wasn't who I am.  That's not the nature of my character he said.  That made me mad too.  Lol. 

I used to feel just like you when I was younger. Outraged that bad people never seem to receive the punishment they deserve, thinking that it was easier to be a bad person, and so on. 

Much later I realized that if there were full justice meted out in our world here, in the sense of every bad action leading to immediate, tangible punishment for whoever committed it, my life should be that of never-ending suffering and torture. 

Honestly, we are lucky that there is no instant, mechanical system of divine punishments in this world. If each person truly got what they deserved, none of us would have any chance.

Yet in a sense, bad actions do have consequences, and bad people do get punished. Bad people can’t be happy. Bad deeds will eventually turn the life of the one that commits them into a living hell.

You really shouldn’t be craving revenge or some kind of Old Testament-style punishment for villains. Your wife is punished enough by being who she is. 

[Gebidozo]

7 hours ago, tzorno said:

if she left me tomorrow I wouldn't care. 

In that case, you shouldn’t be together with her now. Does she know that you feel this way? Does she accept being with someone who wouldn’t care if she left?

 

7 hours ago, tzorno said:

So it's just not money that my lying, drunken, cheating, felon of an ex took from me.  

It’s always in your power to feel unconditional love to other people. No one can take that away from you. You shouldn’t be blaming your wife for that.

[Gebidozo]

5 hours ago, tzorno said:

What?  I'm sorry, but how can you defend cheating?  It's one of the 10 major sins.  People got stoned to death for it in the Old Testament. 

Well, look at that, I was just referring to the Old Testament in my previous post, and there you mention it yourself. I take it you are a fellow Christian? Then maybe it would be more helpful to you to focus on the New Testament rather than the Old. The Lord told us to forgive our enemies, pray for those who do us harm, turn the other cheek. That’s not exactly the attitude you’re cultivating now towards your wife.

As for stoning people to death, do you recall what the Lord said when a woman caught in adultery was about to be executed in that way? “He that is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her”. 

Just to clarify, of course cheating is bad. I don’t think anyone here is defending it. But it’s your attitude towards your wife’s transgression that needs to change. You’re punishing yourself tremendously by clinging to vindictive feelings.

[Gebidozo]

6 hours ago, tzorno said:

Cheating absolutely should be illegal

Do you really think that making something illegal will improve morals?

It appears that you are trapped in that Old Testament mentality I was referring to above. You think that the harsher the laws are, the better the humans will become. The entire OT is basically a grandiose testimony to the failure of that thinking. That’s why apostle Paul calls the Law (not just any law, but the Torah, the OT law you seem to be favoring) a word that, in the original Greek of the New Testament, means “manure”.

OT laws were good for their time, considering ancient morals and attitudes. But what was good 3000 years ago isn’t necessarily good now. Harsh punishments for transgressions won’t make us better, they will just teach us to lie and cheat even more.

Besides, would you really have wanted your wife to be faithful to you just because she was afraid of going to prison? If a person wants to cheat and would act upon that desire under favorable circumstances, what could any law fix there? We want our spouses to be faithful of their own free will, not because they are forced to wear a chastity belt.

[tzorno]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

  

If one of your children was in a terrible marriage and their partner was making no moves to address the issue, would you advise them to stay because of vows?  

 

You make an excellent point and of course the answer is no.  

[tzorno]

18 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Well, look at that, I was just referring to the Old Testament in my previous post, and there you mention it yourself. I take it you are a fellow Christian? Then maybe it would be more helpful to you to focus on the New Testament rather than the Old. The Lord told us to forgive our enemies, pray for those who do us harm, turn the other cheek. That’s not exactly the attitude you’re cultivating now towards your wife.

As for stoning people to death, do you recall what the Lord said when a woman caught in adultery was about to be executed in that way? “He that is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her”. 

Just to clarify, of course cheating is bad. I don’t think anyone here is defending it. But it’s your attitude towards your wife’s transgression that needs to change. You’re punishing yourself tremendously by clinging to vindictive feelings.

Yes i'm a Christian and that's why i'm so bothered by my anger.  The Lord says to stay silent and he will fight for you.  He also says to forgive the person who caused you harm.  I struggle so with it.  A pastor told a friend (who went through the same thing I went through) that you don't have to like them, but you have to love them.  That's so hard to do.  I feel like God knows my heart and punishes me for it.  I know what i'm supposed to do, but I fail miserably.

A sidenote story.  When my ex left, I was a total mess.  I would stand in my garage crying, smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee.  Not sleeping for days.  Just the blackest hole one could imagine.  I repeatedly asked God what I did to deserve him taking the person I loved the most away from me.  One day I got an answer.  He wasn't punishing me at all.  He was saving me.  He had to separate me from the evil that she is.  He even paired her with the most hated and horrible person in town.  He did what was right for me and i'm too dumb to see it sometimes.  He even set me up with a wonderful girl that i'm lucky to have.  I'm awful.

I need to concentrate on my faith and quit being so weak and stupid.

[tzorno]

22 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Do you really think that making something illegal will improve morals?

It appears that you are trapped in that Old Testament mentality I was referring to above. You think that the harsher the laws are, the better the humans will become. The entire OT is basically a grandiose testimony to the failure of that thinking. That’s why apostle Paul calls the Law (not just any law, but the Torah, the OT law you seem to be favoring) a word that, in the original Greek of the New Testament, means “manure”.

OT laws were good for their time, considering ancient morals and attitudes. But what was good 3000 years ago isn’t necessarily good now. Harsh punishments for transgressions won’t make us better, they will just teach us to lie and cheat even more.

Besides, would you really have wanted your wife to be faithful to you just because she was afraid of going to prison? If a person wants to cheat and would act upon that desire under favorable circumstances, what could any law fix there? We want our spouses to be faithful of their own free will, not because they are forced to wear a chastity belt.

I don't know.  You make great points and your killing me with common sense.  I don't think anything will change one's morals, but I do think if there were repercussions to bad actions there would be less of that behavior.  I'm probably wrong.  People are who they are and I guess nothing can change that.  God had to wipe the human race out once before because we are so flawed.  Jesus gives us a pass.  A pass we probably don't deserve.

[Gebidozo]

21 minutes ago, tzorno said:

A pastor told a friend (who went through the same thing I went through) that you don't have to like them, but you have to love them

That’s a great advice. Exactly what you need to be working on. You have to understand that nobody is justifying your wife’s evil actions, and nobody is urging you to see them as good. It’s not about that at all. Loving your wife in the Christian sense has nothing to do with her, and everything to do with you. It’s something you need, not she. It’s something that will make you feel better, not her.

 

21 minutes ago, tzorno said:

I feel like God knows my heart and punishes me for it.  I know what i'm supposed to do, but I fail miserably.

Now you’re being too harsh on yourself. Precisely because God knows your heart, he knows exactly what you can and what you can’t do. God’s patience has no limits, he will always wait for you. Don’t see your failure to forgive your wife as a sin, see it as a proof that you’re on the right path. The mere fact that you know your anger is wrong, and are trying to move past it, is sufficient. Just keep reminding yourself that, and let God do the rest.

[Gebidozo]

13 minutes ago, tzorno said:

Jesus gives us a pass.  A pass we probably don't deserve.

A pass we most certainly don’t deserve. Which makes it all the more awesome.

Don’t you think that meditating on that makes you feel calm, invigorated, hopeful, and in any case better than when you wish your wife to be stoned to death? 

Don’t let your anger torture you. Have more mercy on yourself. 

[tzorno]

8 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

A pass we most certainly don’t deserve. Which makes it all the more awesome.

Don’t you think that meditating on that makes you feel calm, invigorated, hopeful, and in any case better than when you wish your wife to be stoned to death? 

Don’t let your anger torture you. Have more mercy on yourself. 

I know i'm babbling, but I need an outsiders opinion on this.  My daughter is very religious and we talk a lot about my anger.  She has a relationship with her mother.  Not the best as it's strained, but she does.  She is attempting to find the mother that she once knew and breaks through every once in awhile.  Anyways, in one of my tangents one night I said that surely her mother would be punished by the Lord for her actions.  My daughter said it doesn't work that way and you know it.  So we went back and forth for a little while until I came to the conclusion that i'm going to lose twice to my ex.  She will be forgiven although she hurt many while i'll probably be persecuted for having so much built up hatred for her that I could never rid myself of.  So not only did my ex beat me down in this life, she's going to win again in the next life.  

Bottom line is I have a hard time with the concept that she will go unpunished for her deeds.  Of course none of us knows how that all works, but I feel like i'm going to get the raw end of that deal.

Admission time - I said the worst thing I think anybody could ever say to a person to my ex the day she was leaving.  I told her I hoped that I would die before her so I could have a front row seat when it was her turn to go before God.  I wanted to see God kick her down to Satan and I would pray that her suffering and torment would be legendary even in Hell.  The look on her face when I said that was unsettling.  She has even told people I said the most horrible thing anybody could ever say to her.  I regret that terribly now.  I'll have to answer for that one.

[Weezy1973]

48 minutes ago, tzorno said:

I'll have to answer for that one.

I’m not a religious person, but my definition of hell is pretty much what you’re putting yourself through by holding onto this hatred and anger. Here’s something to try to remember- everybody is trying to do their best to be happy and free from pain and suffering. And despite how terrible you think your ex wife might be, she too is just trying her best to be happy and free from pain and suffering. That idea is where forgiveness might come from. 
 

It’s likely that the reason what she did hurt so much isn’t so much because of what she did, but more the pain you’re feeling from the thought that you weren’t good enough for her. You’ve made it personal. Hatred and anger are just fear and pain in disguise. And it sounds like hell.

[Gebidozo]

58 minutes ago, tzorno said:

I know i'm babbling, but I need an outsiders opinion on this.

As a Christian, all I can say is that you are theologically and ethically wrong. Your daughter is right. It’s not our prerogative to punish sinners, because we are all sinners. By condemning someone to hell, you are trying to usurp God’s authority, which is the signature move of the fallen powers. We are required to pray for everyone’s salvation.

That said, your anger and your despair are very understandable. You were hurt and you said awful things. You are regretting them. That’s good. Don’t beat yourself up. Of course, if you apologize to your wife for those overly harsh words, it would be amazing, and you’ll feel great. But you don’t have to do that yet if you aren’t ready.

[tzorno]

53 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

I’m not a religious person, but my definition of hell is pretty much what you’re putting yourself through by holding onto this hatred and anger. Here’s something to try to remember- everybody is trying to do their best to be happy and free from pain and suffering. And despite how terrible you think your ex wife might be, she too is just trying her best to be happy and free from pain and suffering. That idea is where forgiveness might come from. 
 

It’s likely that the reason what she did hurt so much isn’t so much because of what she did, but more the pain you’re feeling from the thought that you weren’t good enough for her. You’ve made it personal. Hatred and anger are just fear and pain in disguise. And it sounds like hell.

A lot of truth to that.  Yeah, I feel like a failure.  Why or how wasn't I good enough, especially losing out to that piece of garbage that she's with now.  A guy that's been to prison, abused women, his own children dislike him, and has a rap sheet 4 pages long.  I lost out to that.  He has money though.  I wasn't fortunate enough to have a rich father that gave me everything I ever wanted.

While I feel like that, there's also the people telling me there was nothing I could have done that would have made things different.  She changed and became something completely different.  She is now a drunken lush who doesn't seem to care about anything except money and having a good time.  My daughter says that she lost God and is only concentrating on material things.

It's just hard for me because we were so close to the finish line.  Together for 30 years.  Kids are grown, we have a grandchild, money was good.  I dreamed about the good times that were ahead of us.  The memories we would make.  Retirement and enjoying the grandkids.  That's all gone now and i'm angry about it. 

[tzorno]

57 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

As a Christian, all I can say is that you are theologically and ethically wrong. Your daughter is right. It’s not our prerogative to punish sinners, because we are all sinners. By condemning someone to hell, you are trying to usurp God’s authority, which is the signature move of the fallen powers. We are required to pray for everyone’s salvation.

That said, your anger and your despair are very understandable. You were hurt and you said awful things. You are regretting them. That’s good. Don’t beat yourself up. Of course, if you apologize to your wife for those overly harsh words, it would be amazing, and you’ll feel great. But you don’t have to do that yet if you aren’t ready.

Apologize to her?  I don't think I can do that.  I will always be waiting for her apology first.  If I can just have that, things would be a lot different.

There is so much I haven't posted about her.  So many things she has done.  She was downright evil.  There is not one bridge left unburnt.  Unfortunately my situation isn't just she cheated and we divorced,,,the end.  There's so much more.