I said no with my words but not my actions

[Paintero]

I'm not sure if this was infidelity or SA. Or both. Please help me understand this objectively. 

I'm in a very happy, very stable 5 year relationship, currently long distance. I started a new job in a new country and met lots of wonderful new people. We are a strong-knit community and care for one another. There is a light flirtation between everyone at work (gastronomie - the lightness helps us get through grueling shifts).

One guy at work, let's call him Joel, took a liking to me and it was kind of a running joke at work that he fancied me. I would play along with the banter but we were in a safe space at work and I read it as part of his Hispanic culture to be flirty and charming. I also felt like my relationship status protected me, cos men don't tend to cross a man's boundary... stupid I know. We go on a night out and things get a bit more intense. We joke about where my boundaries are and he tries to cross the line (he says he can't keep his hands off me and grabs me, I feel really weird obviously be he apologises profusely. I think I foolishly thought I could be in complete control no matter what. 

After a few weeks this playful thing settles into a friendship. I initially liked his joyful and fun personality, not all this noise, so I was clear that we will be (just) friends. We joke about girls he's interested in. Then one night we go for drinks as a group. I have about 3 pints (not enough to be drunk or anything). Joel is a bit flirty (e.g. arm behind my chair when I would sit next to him) but nothing major. We are with friends so I feel safe. Later in the night 6 comes 4, then I move to sit next to Joel so that it's 2 facing 2. At this point he ups the flirtation and has his hand way down on my lower back sending intense feelings through my body. I can't concentrate rolling a cigarette and he's taking the piss out of my bad roll so I tell him to f*** off. 

Eventually the other two leave and we're finishing our beers. We go from having a normal convo to this very intense interaction that happens 3 times. Although things had been playful in the past, I have never and would never touch him. We would also regularly talk about me and my partner / him and his ex. I thought we had an actual friendship. First round: he starts touching me. I have my head in my hands with my elbows on the table, just breathing. Then his hands are around my midriff - essentially touching me up. I feel that he's hitting a boundary and sit back and say "woah you make me feel so drunk". We go back to chatting again (I have no idea why I didn't go home. We were friends so in the end I still felt that I could trust him and that he respected my relationship). This scene plays out again, this time his hands go near/over my bra. Again "woah woah you make me feel so drunk". But I can't say that I told him to stop or indicated that I didn't want it beyond stopping it in the moment. He stops and my heart is racing. 

I had really trusted this guy - during this evening I told him about losing my virginity to rape 8 years ago which I've hardly told anyone. I think I was quite emotionally vulnerable alongside the alcohol. At some point he said he wanted to kiss me, I said "I do not consent". I don't know why I wasn't in fight or flight mode. He would be so charming and innocent then this strange transgressive side of his personality. We had previously joked about him being a sociopath because he said he could get girls like a science. 

I'm filled with so much shame and guilt for the third interaction - it's like my body and mind were separate. My mind was so clear of my boundaries, felt empowered and in control, but my body was confused by the intense feeling from the way he was touching me. I'll never forgive myself but before the third time I moved his hand to rest on my neck and at another point in my hair. I know both are a clear transgression of my relationship and I don't know how to tell my partner. 

In the third interaction, his hands are on me, he's kissing my temple and I'm saying "no". This time his hands go under my bra. I don't immediately stop it, the feeling in my body is so intense. I'm just sitting there head in my hands. After a moment again I say "woah woah you make me feel so drunk". This time I have to sit head in hands for 2 mins, just breathing and physically shaking. 

Over the course of this Joel had said "I don't want to corrupt you but I do" and "you can't/I can't trust myself around you. I'd do anything to get close to you". I told him if anything happened between us it would destroy me. Some parts are blurry but after all of these exchanges I know he had his hand on my upper thigh. It was only when I told him that my partner was my family - "would you give up your family?" that he truly stopped. After a couple days he texted me "I'm sorry if I did things you didn't want me to do". 

I've told my partner some parts of what happened, about me saying I didn't consent and him touching me up, but not about my part in it. Sometimes I feel so f***ed up I want to die. If it was sexual assault I feel like I am complicit in it. If it's just straight infidelity please someone be honest with me. My therapist told me not to tell my partner the details. I'm not sure what to do. If I told you everything, would you break up with me? I know I crossed the line but I also feel so manipulated. I'm so confused. Thank you for your help.

[glows]

Backtrack to why you keep saying you felt safe. Mixing heavy flirting and knowing a man likes you and is single is not great especially with alcohol in the mix. You both knew you were doing wrong since you’re in a monogamous relationship. Maybe ask yourself why you felt the need to test those boundaries or flirt at all with any guy? 

What did your partner say? 

Also what do you mean the feelings were so intense? Were you struggling not to puke from the excess alcohol or were you horny? 

[stillafool]

"Woah you make me feel so drunk" is not "No, stop touching me like that".   The latter is language one would use when they don't like to be touched and are maintaining a boundary because they are in a relationship.  You said the first statement multiple times, so you didn't make a mistake.  If I were a guy that would make me feel that you like the way I'm touching you and it makes you feel intoxicated and turned on.  I'm confused why you'd use that language if you didn't like him feeling you up.  Did you tell your boyfriend this is what you said to the guy when he was touching you?  If so, what was his response to that?

[basil67]

I don't know what "Woah you make me feel so drunk" means.  Is this slang for "back off"?

[ExpatInItaly]

Add me to the list of: what does "whoa you make me feel so drunk" even mean? What an odd choice of phrase, and I am not sure what you were actually trying to say here. 

Look, woman here, and I will give you my take:  you like this guy back and are attracted to him, and got carried away. You seemed to enjoy his touch and only actually stopped him when he kissed your temple. You feel guilty that you allowed this to go as far as it did, and you haven't really been honest with your boyfriend about that. 

Sexual assault? I don't see that here, no. Dancing with infidelity? Yes, absolutely. You need to sit with yourself and figure out why you opened this door. Are you unhappy in your relationship? Bored? 

[Gebidozo]

OP, I don’t understand what’s confusing you in this situation. You are attracted to this “Joel”. You were flirting heavily with him, allowed sexual things to happen, and continued meeting him despite the glaring warning signs.

To me, this doesn’t look like sexual assault, but it does look like infidelity, or at least something very close to it.

You also weren’t honest with your BF. It’s quite clear that something is going wrong in your relationship. You need to figure it out.

Oh, and please stay away from “Joel”. Guys who hit on other guys’ girlfriends will bring you nothing but trouble.

[d0nnivain]

It wasn't sexual assault.  He put his hand on your back.  It wasn't infidelity either.  

This was a guy who liked you & he made his move.  You said no.  Even though you were drunk you stuck to your principles.  

Do not tell your BF.  There's really nothing to tell because nothing really happened.  All telling your BF will do is make him upset.  He's powerless in another country.   If you do tell him, down play it.  Share that a guy made a pass at you but you turned him down & now you will be giving him a wide berth.  Police your speech so you are not always taking about the guy to your BF.  

You learned a lesson here.  Friendships with men are not like friendships with women.  Your actions mean something.  Alone with him, drinking, a history of light flirting & intense conversation -- this guy thought he had a green light & he took his shot.  He was enough of a good guy to listen to your words & stop when you told him to.  He is somebody you can feel safe with but you have to stop giving him mixed messages.  Going forward tone down the flirting;  do not get drunk with him (2 is the limit)' do not engage in physical contact (stay more than arm's length away from him) and never be alone with him, just you & him. 

Edited April 28 by d0nnivain

[Mrin]

Dude here. I don't know if it's a cultural thing and I'm missing the meaning of this but to me "you make me feel so drunk" almost feels something like "you make me feel so lightheaded or turned on" or something like that. I would interpret it as a compliment. I'm not sure I would have seen it as an invitation for more but I definitely would have interpreted it as a compliment. Let me try some different words that say the same thing and I think you'll see my point - "you're intoxicating to me". 

Anyhow, I also don't see this as SA. But I also don't see this as a massive transgression on your part. I see it more as a learning experience about boundaries, physical attraction, alcohol, communication, transparency and blurred lines. We are all human. We all have desires. Sometimes they don't make much sense to us. I think you learned the dangers of being in a position like that. Don't be too hard on yourself.

Edited April 28 by Mrin

[Paintero]

15 hours ago, glows said:

Backtrack to why you keep saying you felt safe. Mixing heavy flirting and knowing a man likes you and is single is not great especially with alcohol in the mix. You both knew you were doing wrong since you’re in a monogamous relationship. Maybe ask yourself why you felt the need to test those boundaries or flirt at all with any guy? 

What did your partner say? 

Also what do you mean the feelings were so intense? Were you struggling not to puke from the excess alcohol or were you horny? 

Thank you for the objectivity.

Moving to this city had been a really healing experience for me and in the last few weeks I finally felt that I’d come through the trauma of my rape. Like I’d enlivened a part of me I hadn’t seen in 8 years (feeling empowered, in control, bright and playful). That confidence got all muddled with meeting this guy and feeling like I could maintain my boundaries. Ofc I see now that feeling “empowered” was actually me letting my guard down and expecting him to respect my boundary/relationship whilst I didn’t. I’ve learnt a very harsh lesson. 

My partner told me there’s no need to apologise if I haven’t done anything wrong. I said I wanted to share more with him so we’re going to call after my therapy session tomorrow. He said he wants to know what I told my therapist - he said he can handle it. 

Intense that my head was spinning and that he was right on the mark of hitting my boundary. Like into the territory of evil. I didn’t do a very good explaining that to him 

[Paintero]

15 hours ago, stillafool said:

"Woah you make me feel so drunk" is not "No, stop touching me like that".   The latter is language one would use when they don't like to be touched and are maintaining a boundary because they are in a relationship.  You said the first statement multiple times, so you didn't make a mistake.  If I were a guy that would make me feel that you like the way I'm touching you and it makes you feel intoxicated and turned on.  I'm confused why you'd use that language if you didn't like him feeling you up.  Did you tell your boyfriend this is what you said to the guy when he was touching you?  If so, what was his response to that?

To clarify, when I said those words is when I would sit back each time and move his hands off me - that my head was spinning beyond and that he was hitting a boundary and going too far. I feel like each time he went a little bit further - pushing and pushing. 

I appreciate your objective opinion that I wasn’t clear. I should have left. When I was present with myself I tried to say no by saying I didn’t consent to kissing and that if anything would happen it would destroy me. 

I’d say he just kept trying his luck, I thought I could handle it but was giving very mixed signals and I thought I was in control but I definitely wasn’t. 

I told my boyfriend that part yes, he didn’t comment on those words exactly. My therapist said that if this guy actually cared about me when I told him I felt so drunk, that he should’ve gotten me a cab home instead of pushing the boundaries again. 

[smackie9]

I get it, you haven't felt this desired in years, and secretly this guy felt titillating. Your brain said no no, but that damn dopamine started pumpin hard into your brain. Little by little you told yourself, I can handle this and still enjoy it safely, but then you add alcohol with interaction and all hell breaks loose. You both lost yourselves...this isn't about being a caring person, this is about intense raw sexual attraction. It can get the best of anyone. Keep your mouth shut about it with your partner, and work on this with your therapist. In no time this will just be a hard lesson learned, and will be history/done. life will go on. 

[ExpatInItaly]

7 hours ago, smackie9 said:

I get it, you haven't felt this desired in years, and secretly this guy felt titillating.

This what it boils down to. 

On 4/28/2024 at 5:20 PM, Paintero said:

when I said those words is when I would sit back each time and move his hands off me - that my head was spinning beyond and that he was hitting a boundary and going too far.

You do need to be clearer with your words in the future. I didn't get all that with "whoa you make me feel so drunk."  Say what you mean next time. 

[NuevoYorko]

Flirty banter amongst friends is pretty normal IMO but when it comes to physical contact I think lines need to be drawn early on.

Right off the bat you share that he said "I can't keep my hands off of you."   He continued to touch and you continued to allow it.   

This is a typical progression that is leading towards more intimate physical contact.  I'm sure you know this since you are in a romantic relationship that I assume has a physical aspect.    It's likely that a similar escalation took place.

Please do not have physical stuff (hands on your back etc.) with men you don't want to be physically familiar with you.  Don't put yourself alone with anyone who is trying to escalate with you.  

And, just as important - use CLEAR LANGUAGE.  Even "I do not consent" does not sound as serious as NO.  And then follow that with your actions.  LEAVE.