Trying to figure out where I went wrong

[WorldTraveler]

Maybe it's just me but I feel like as I've gotten older (now 30) finding quality dates has gotten to be more difficult as my social circle has shrunken and I'm one of the few singles guys left in my friend group. It just seem's like it used to be so much easier in my 20's and I remember never having many issues with approaching women and finding quality dates. I've been in numerous relationships over the years with my last serious one being three years ago. Since then I've just casually dated as I was finishing up my masters and didn't have much time outside of school. But now after my last relationship ended three years ago I feel so rusty and at times feel like my confidence has plummeted making dating quite the challenge. I'm not sure if part of it is the culture of dating these days and the other part of it probably due to something I'm doing wrong, but I'm now at the point where I'm reflecting on what I can do to have more success in this area of my life. I don't think I'll be the first to say that dating apps are pretty horrible, but I feel like my experiences with them are contributing to my lack of confidence these days. Many time's I've gotten matches and either I don't get any reply to my initial message, or things evolve into an exchange of numbers. But then after a brief period of texting and a few attempts of setting up dates, the woman will flake and then at that point I don't give it any more of my energy or time so I don't even end up getting to the first date. After a while it's hard to not feel like something is wrong with my approach and as a result this translates to a lack of confidence making it even harder to make attempts in person. 

In person, it's even worse. I've had a few instances where girls approach me which is a nice change, but even then I have trouble maintaining conversation and start worrying about coming off as boring. This then causes my brain to go into panic mode and it's like I just blank and all witty, interesting banter goes right out the window. I've been told that I'm attractive and funny by those closest to me and I'm usually the one to make people laugh, but then its like the moment I see an attractive woman those skills disappear. Almost as if I'm getting too in my head and not allowing my true self to shine through which is something women can easily pick up on. I have a good friend who can easily approach women and he really does make it seem effortless, but then just the thought of me doing that will start causing mild anxiety. It's like I'm afraid of running out of things to say, and feel like at times it's hard to keep things flowing ultimately causing the woman to become disinterested. Had something similar happen the other night where I was talking to women at the bar with my friend and just trying to keep conversation going, but after a good 15-20 minutes they "went to the bathroom" and never came back. Something's got to change because this seems to be taking a toll on mental health and I know that I can't keep operating the same way and expect a different result. So just curious if you might have any words of advice or tips to get out of this slump and get back to the place I was in my 20's. 

[Gebidozo]

It looks like you’ve already discovered the root of the problem. It’s your insecurity.

If you’re afraid of being boring, you will be boring. If you’re afraid of being unfunny, you will be unfunny. Fear leads to the dark side.

I highly suggest to drop online dating altogether and to try not to force dating in general. The less anxious you are to find someone the higher are the chances of eventually finding the right person. Relax and let things flow organically.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, WorldTraveler said:

Maybe it's just me but I feel like as I've gotten older (now 30) finding quality dates has gotten to be more difficult as my social circle has shrunken and I'm one of the few singles guys left in my friend group. It just seem's like it used to be so much easier in my 20's and I remember never having many issues with approaching women and finding quality dates. I've been in numerous relationships over the years with my last serious one being three years ago. Since then I've just casually dated as I was finishing up my masters and didn't have much time outside of school. But now after my last relationship ended three years ago I feel so rusty and at times feel like my confidence has plummeted making dating quite the challenge. I'm not sure if part of it is the culture of dating these days and the other part of it probably due to something I'm doing wrong, but I'm now at the point where I'm reflecting on what I can do to have more success in this area of my life. I don't think I'll be the first to say that dating apps are pretty horrible, but I feel like my experiences with them are contributing to my lack of confidence these days. Many time's I've gotten matches and either I don't get any reply to my initial message, or things evolve into an exchange of numbers. But then after a brief period of texting and a few attempts of setting up dates, the woman will flake and then at that point I don't give it any more of my energy or time so I don't even end up getting to the first date. After a while it's hard to not feel like something is wrong with my approach and as a result this translates to a lack of confidence making it even harder to make attempts in person. 

In person, it's even worse. I've had a few instances where girls approach me which is a nice change, but even then I have trouble maintaining conversation and start worrying about coming off as boring. This then causes my brain to go into panic mode and it's like I just blank and all witty, interesting banter goes right out the window. I've been told that I'm attractive and funny by those closest to me and I'm usually the one to make people laugh, but then its like the moment I see an attractive woman those skills disappear. Almost as if I'm getting too in my head and not allowing my true self to shine through which is something women can easily pick up on. I have a good friend who can easily approach women and he really does make it seem effortless, but then just the thought of me doing that will start causing mild anxiety. It's like I'm afraid of running out of things to say, and feel like at times it's hard to keep things flowing ultimately causing the woman to become disinterested. Had something similar happen the other night where I was talking to women at the bar with my friend and just trying to keep conversation going, but after a good 15-20 minutes they "went to the bathroom" and never came back. Something's got to change because this seems to be taking a toll on mental health and I know that I can't keep operating the same way and expect a different result. So just curious if you might have any words of advice or tips to get out of this slump and get back to the place I was in my 20's. 

I can relate to much of this, my advice, get off dating apps quickly and if you do stay on them limit your time because they really really do hit confidence badly. What you are experiencing is not uncommon.

As I learnt recently its all about confidence.

[evillover]

Maybe you should more focus on yourself. 

[Els]

It definitely gets harder as you get older - both dating as well as friendships. It's normal IMO to feel like it's not as easy as it was in your 20s, when most people were single and carefree.

I think that stressing about it less and focusing more on being the best person you can be would be helpful in general. Might be worth talking to a therapist about the mental health issues as well.

[FredEire]

7 hours ago, WorldTraveler said:

Maybe it's just me but I feel like as I've gotten older (now 30) finding quality dates has gotten to be more difficult as my social circle has shrunken and I'm one of the few singles guys left in my friend group. It just seem's like it used to be so much easier in my 20's and I remember never having many issues with approaching women and finding quality dates. I've been in numerous relationships over the years with my last serious one being three years ago. Since then I've just casually dated as I was finishing up my masters and didn't have much time outside of school. But now after my last relationship ended three years ago I feel so rusty and at times feel like my confidence has plummeted making dating quite the challenge. I'm not sure if part of it is the culture of dating these days and the other part of it probably due to something I'm doing wrong, but I'm now at the point where I'm reflecting on what I can do to have more success in this area of my life. I don't think I'll be the first to say that dating apps are pretty horrible, but I feel like my experiences with them are contributing to my lack of confidence these days. Many time's I've gotten matches and either I don't get any reply to my initial message, or things evolve into an exchange of numbers. But then after a brief period of texting and a few attempts of setting up dates, the woman will flake and then at that point I don't give it any more of my energy or time so I don't even end up getting to the first date. After a while it's hard to not feel like something is wrong with my approach and as a result this translates to a lack of confidence making it even harder to make attempts in person. 

In person, it's even worse. I've had a few instances where girls approach me which is a nice change, but even then I have trouble maintaining conversation and start worrying about coming off as boring. This then causes my brain to go into panic mode and it's like I just blank and all witty, interesting banter goes right out the window. I've been told that I'm attractive and funny by those closest to me and I'm usually the one to make people laugh, but then its like the moment I see an attractive woman those skills disappear. Almost as if I'm getting too in my head and not allowing my true self to shine through which is something women can easily pick up on. I have a good friend who can easily approach women and he really does make it seem effortless, but then just the thought of me doing that will start causing mild anxiety. It's like I'm afraid of running out of things to say, and feel like at times it's hard to keep things flowing ultimately causing the woman to become disinterested. Had something similar happen the other night where I was talking to women at the bar with my friend and just trying to keep conversation going, but after a good 15-20 minutes they "went to the bathroom" and never came back. Something's got to change because this seems to be taking a toll on mental health and I know that I can't keep operating the same way and expect a different result. So just curious if you might have any words of advice or tips to get out of this slump and get back to the place I was in my 20's. 

Tell me about it.

If I'm not interested or semi-interested I feel like I cand be very charm and direct the conversation really well. If I'm very attracted to the girl I turn into a blithering idiot who can't string a sentence together.

Having said that I think it the girl is really into you as well she'll forgive a bit of awkwardness and may even be a bit awkward herself. Dates are a lot better for getting to know eachother on a personal level and you know there's at least a baseline level of interest.

Chatting to girls on a night out requires a lot more game and you have no idea how interested someone is until you try really. You may feel you mucked it up with that girl who went to the bathroom, and you may be right, but equally she may have taken one look at you and thought "not really into this guy". From that point there's not too much you can do usually.

I generally stay away from trying to meet girls on a night out now as you're talking about best case getting a number which even then doesn't lead to much a lot of the time, or a night of drunken sex which gets a lot less appealing in your 30s.

If you accept you are where you need to be and accept that nerves will affect you and make you a bit awkward at times I think that will allow yourself to shine through. What's totally unattractive is someone who's forcing a smooth player image when they are actually afraid of making a mess of things, the fakeness is easy to see.

[ZA Dater]

37 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Tell me about it.

If I'm not interested or semi-interested I feel like I cand be very charm and direct the conversation really well. If I'm very attracted to the girl I turn into a blithering idiot who can't string a sentence together.

Having said that I think it the girl is really into you as well she'll forgive a bit of awkwardness and may even be a bit awkward herself. Dates are a lot better for getting to know eachother on a personal level and you know there's at least a baseline level of interest.

Chatting to girls on a night out requires a lot more game and you have no idea how interested someone is until you try really. You may feel you mucked it up with that girl who went to the bathroom, and you may be right, but equally she may have taken one look at you and thought "not really into this guy". From that point there's not too much you can do usually.

I generally stay away from trying to meet girls on a night out now as you're talking about best case getting a number which even then doesn't lead to much a lot of the time, or a night of drunken sex which gets a lot less appealing in your 30s.

If you accept you are where you need to be and accept that nerves will affect you and make you a bit awkward at times I think that will allow yourself to shine through. What's totally unattractive is someone who's forcing a smooth player image when they are actually afraid of making a mess of things, the fakeness is easy to see.

As an aside I can actually offer you some help with this, my years around very attractive people taught me that the way to get around this is, focus on something, in other words maybe something work related and have the conversation or and this is not a good idea go with the view "she is not into me" that way its easier to converse because in both instances you have taken the pressure off yourself via moderate expectations and if you wanted to it would let you settle into the conversation. 

The advantage you would have is that you can bring your judgement and experience into reading the conversation. Me, I often sit around extremely successful people and while its different people often get intimidated, I've never had this problem because I just talk to them like I would anyone else.

Cold meeting on nights out I think is for those who have supreme levels of self confidence and maybe a few superficial qualities

[FredEire]

16 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

As an aside I can actually offer you some help with this, my years around very attractive people taught me that the way to get around this is, focus on something, in other words maybe something work related and have the conversation or and this is not a good idea go with the view "she is not into me" that way its easier to converse because in both instances you have taken the pressure off yourself via moderate expectations and if you wanted to it would let you settle into the conversation. 

The advantage you would have is that you can bring your judgement and experience into reading the conversation. Me, I often sit around extremely successful people and while its different people often get intimidated, I've never had this problem because I just talk to them like I would anyone else.

Cold meeting on nights out I think is for those who have supreme levels of self confidence and maybe a few superficial qualities

Yes I think this is true.

It's all about realising nobody should be on a pedestal, that rich guy is not above you because he has money, that really pretty girl is not above you because of her looks.

Of course you'll be naturally insecure about this but if you can just talk to women naturally with no intention behind it of hooking up you'll be able to relax and flow a little more.

[ZA Dater]

9 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Yes I think this is true.

It's all about realising nobody should be on a pedestal, that rich guy is not above you because he has money, that really pretty girl is not above you because of her looks.

Of course you'll be naturally insecure about this but if you can just talk to women naturally with no intention behind it of hooking up you'll be able to relax and flow a little more.

The risk with this is you also need to be able to show interest, that can be extremely challenging.

[FredEire]

14 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The risk with this is you also need to be able to show interest, that can be extremely challenging.

Yes, but there isn't a magic formula, just the ability to chat naturally and put your best foot forward is the challenge initially.

If OP finds themselves in the very common situation that chatting to a woman they find particularly attractive seems to wipe out their social skills and puts them in a place of saying "Oh god what do I say now/Why did I say X, what an idiot I am", it helps to go into everything initially just thinking of it platonically.

If you get to know people around you and just chat to everyone, young and old, male and female, attractive and unattractive, it breaks down the barrier in your head somewhat and allows you not to put beautiful women that you want to date in some special category that you have to strain and try extra hard with.

Easier said than done I know OP, I still struggle with it sometimes. But when I first met my ex it was one of the first times it "worked out" with a girl I would have used to idealise. Once I got to know her a little better I was actually shocked how many anxieties, insecurities etc she had in her own life, as my younger self used to thing that women I found especially attractive were some beautiful magical creature I had to act differently around, but it's far from the truth.

Edited May 27 by FredEire

[Gaeta]

You need to 'let go'. Repeat yourself that <what will be will be>. You have NO control over if a woman will like you or not. Attraction is something invisible that we all experience internally and you will not attract more women if you have a better 'game'. Actually you would attract more women if you accepted that you are a shy man around women, and you own it. The right woman will find it endearing. You are not the only shy man around, and a lot of them are married, it only took the right woman. A few years ago I went on a first date with a man and he was so nervous that he started ventilating and he had to put his head between his knees to recuperate. The employee shop and other customers came to help, he was embarrassed of course but that did not deteriorate 'at all' the attraction I felt for him when I met him. 

I repeat we cannot force <connection> with someone, not matter the dating tricks you hear left and right. Before going on a first date you can tell that lady that you're not used to these meeting and you're a bit shy. Don't try to be someone you're not. 

Edited May 27 by Gaeta

[FredEire]

4 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

You need to 'let go'. Repeat yourself that <what will be will be>. You have NO control over if a woman will like you or not. Attraction is something invisible that we all experience internally and you will not attract more women if you have a better 'game'. Actually you would attract more women if you accepted that you are a shy man around women, and you own it. The right woman will find it endearing. You are not the only shy man around, and a lot of them are married, it only took the right woman. A few years ago I went on a first date with a man and he was so nervous that he started ventilating and he had to put his head between his knees to recuperate. The employee shop and other customers came to help, he was embarrassed of course but that did not deteriorate 'at all' the attraction I felt for him when I met him. 

I repeat we cannot force <connection> with someone, not matter the dating tricks you hear left and right. Before going on a first date you can tell that lady that you're not used to these meeting and you're a bit shy. Don't try to be someone you're not. 

Yes, absolutely.

Something I'd add is that if a lack of smooth moves and lines is the issue (for example your story of the night out) what you've probably missed out on is sex.

There's a lot of peacocking and superficial attraction involved in this scenario and the reality is a lot of people want someone to thrill them and show them a good time just for the night.

But if you're going to be seeing them for an extended period of time i.e a relationship of some sort you'll of course have awkward moments and bad days, if it's not something they accept and find endearing it's not going to work, and if you deny these moments and try to be something you're not it's not attractive.

[smackie9]

A strong social life, a life filled with friendships and activities/busy lifestyle helps a lot with the brain/social interaction. 

[WorldTraveler]

11 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I can relate to much of this, my advice, get off dating apps quickly and if you do stay on them limit your time because they really really do hit confidence badly. What you are experiencing is not uncommon.

As I learnt recently its all about confidence.

I try to limit them to just once a week because they truly are so bad. Every time you get unmatched with or no reply you can't help but automatically thinking it must've been something I said/didn't say. 

[WorldTraveler]

5 hours ago, FredEire said:

Yes, absolutely.

Something I'd add is that if a lack of smooth moves and lines is the issue (for example your story of the night out) what you've probably missed out on is sex.

There's a lot of peacocking and superficial attraction involved in this scenario and the reality is a lot of people want someone to thrill them and show them a good time just for the night.

But if you're going to be seeing them for an extended period of time i.e a relationship of some sort you'll of course have awkward moments and bad days, if it's not something they accept and find endearing it's not going to work, and if you deny these moments and try to be something you're not it's not attractive.

I'm definitely at the point where I want to find something long term again and I do realize that the bar scene is not usually the best setting for that. There was another night a few months back where I had another interaction where after showing all the signs of interest, I had a very attractive woman come up to me and we chatted for a little bit. But she was on her way out of the bar so I asked for her number and after a couple of days I came to the realization that she had given me a fake number. So between online dating being the trash that it is and not having much luck in person it's been impossible to feel as good about myself as I used to. The worst part of these unsuccessful interactions is not knowing what went wrong so that I could adjust and correct for next time.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, WorldTraveler said:

I'm definitely at the point where I want to find something long term again and I do realize that the bar scene is not usually the best setting for that. There was another night a few months back where I had another interaction where after showing all the signs of interest, I had a very attractive woman come up to me and we chatted for a little bit. But she was on her way out of the bar so I asked for her number and after a couple of days I came to the realization that she had given me a fake number. So between online dating being the trash that it is and not having much luck in person it's been impossible to feel as good about myself as I used to. The worst part of these unsuccessful interactions is not knowing what went wrong so that I could adjust and correct for next time.

Here you have summed up why dating is so hard but remember others have the same difficulties you do. It's hugely problematic even for attractive people.

My suggestion is to build some confidence even if it's in something you are good at. I have battled my entire life with dating, I can relate. Value yourself too try to repel the bad stuff.

You know what I have done, I'm holding onto the possibility someone I really like will go on a date with me, that possibility makes me feel less hopeless. You need to believe in possibility.

[ShyViolet]

20 hours ago, WorldTraveler said:

 

In person, it's even worse. I've had a few instances where girls approach me which is a nice change, but even then I have trouble maintaining conversation and start worrying about coming off as boring. This then causes my brain to go into panic mode and it's like I just blank and all witty, interesting banter goes right out the window.

Sounds like an anxiety issue.  Treat it as one.  Work on your anxiety.  Stop thinking of it as a situation where you have to "impress" people and put on your best performance.  Learn to just be yourself.  Go to therapy for the anxiety if you need to.  It sounds like you could have had genuine opportunities to meet people but this anxiety is getting in the way.

[Lotsgoingon]

A few things. I used to interview and converse with people for a living. 

First rule: start asking real questions, questions that you are curious about. Someone tells you they work at X place. Well get curious: what's it like being an accountant or dental assistant or whatever.

Literally if you ask people about themselves and ask follow-up questions, they love it. 

Now the opposite here is also true. There's nothing wrong with NOT trying to converse with people. You're assuming you SHOULD be able to easily converse with everyone. No. You have to talk to a bunch of people before you find people you really click with. 

If you think you are boring, then you need to work on that. Having a conversation while worrying that you "sound boring" is like conversing while punching yourself in the nose. Can't work. And we will sound boring to someone. Get out of your head that way. Drop the pressure that you should easily click. Relax and let the conversation come to you. But look, you got to be wiling to share some real opinions and thoughts and observations and to discuss your own life. 

 

 

[WorldTraveler]

12 hours ago, Lotsgoingon said:

A few things. I used to interview and converse with people for a living. 

First rule: start asking real questions, questions that you are curious about. Someone tells you they work at X place. Well get curious: what's it like being an accountant or dental assistant or whatever.

Literally if you ask people about themselves and ask follow-up questions, they love it. 

Now the opposite here is also true. There's nothing wrong with NOT trying to converse with people. You're assuming you SHOULD be able to easily converse with everyone. No. You have to talk to a bunch of people before you find people you really click with. 

If you think you are boring, then you need to work on that. Having a conversation while worrying that you "sound boring" is like conversing while punching yourself in the nose. Can't work. And we will sound boring to someone. Get out of your head that way. Drop the pressure that you should easily click. Relax and let the conversation come to you. But look, you got to be wiling to share some real opinions and thoughts and observations and to discuss your own life. 

 

 

In your experience if I'm talking with a woman I find attractive, should there be a limit on conversation to prevent things from drying up? Or does it usually just depend on the overall vibe and body language of the person you're conversing with? For example, if you start noticing signs of disinterest, pull away, offer a number and excuse yourself from the conversation, etc.

[Lotsgoingon]

Your first goal is to practice simply enjoying the conversation. 

So if the conversation dries up, then one or both of you have lost interest. Now, sometimes when the "conversation" dies down, that's when you can shift to "I love this beer" or "I'm glad this week is almost over." Some silence is ok in conversation. You can go to something more personal. Away from just "interviewing."

If you start noticing signs of disinterest, then chill. You don't have do anything. You can just say "great talking to you." And then focus on yourself or someone else. 

[FredEire]

2 hours ago, WorldTraveler said:

In your experience if I'm talking with a woman I find attractive, should there be a limit on conversation to prevent things from drying up? Or does it usually just depend on the overall vibe and body language of the person you're conversing with? For example, if you start noticing signs of disinterest, pull away, offer a number and excuse yourself from the conversation, etc.

Stay away from PUA thinking, there's no rigid rules about what you should say or how long the conversation should be. If she seems up to talk all night and maybe wants a kiss, then go for it. If she's at a birthday event for example and is under pressure to go back to her friends, get her number and then leave her to enjoy the rest of the night.

It requires a bit of social skills and judgement of the individual situation, and you get better at it over time.