Controlling request or valid boundary?

[Gaeta]

1 minute ago, Sony12 said:

And by the same token a lady who is only a 'girlfriend' has no right to say what he can or can't do during his free time

Are you reading what I am typing? she did NOT tell him to not go. She did NOT tell him what to do. She told  him how she felt about it. That's what we do in a relationship even in a marriage , we tell each other how things make us feel then the person makes a decision. Even in a marriage you cannot tell a husband or a wife what to do! But you can certain tell them how their decisions and behavior make you feel. 

[Sony12]

5 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

Are you reading what I am typing? she did NOT tell him to not go. She did NOT tell him what to do. She told  him how she felt about it. That's what we do in a relationship even in a marriage , we tell each other how things make us feel then the person makes a decision. Even in a marriage you cannot tell a husband or a wife what to do! But you can certain tell them how their decisions and behavior make you feel. 

She told him 'that's not something people in a committed relationship do'. Which is basically telling him not to go in a very passive aggressive way. If she were thinking with her head on straight she would know that there is no defined answer to that question. Everyone acts differently in committed relationship. The OP could probably find lots of gals who would be fine with him going on a trip with friends that he likely knew before he ever knew her.

 

[Gebidozo]

16 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

Yeah and you've also taken issue with your significant others sexual past before you so it makes sense.

I don’t see how that is relevant. There are many variants and shades and nuances in these things. The boundaries are different pretty much for every couple. Like I said, personally I’d feel uncomfortable if my fiancée goes clubbing in Ibiza or a comparable location. The OP’s girlfriend, Gaeta, and Nuevo Yorko feel the same way. You and some other posters don’t. No problem, I can see your point of view as well, but mine is different in this case.

 

[Lotsgoingon]

@celticsfan2345you've gotten great (and vigorously argued) comments. 

What's your updated thinking after looking at the comments?

 

[Els]

21 hours ago, celticsfan2345 said:

The last context I'll add for now is that this isn't a trip I would have planned myself per se. I'm not a serious raver by any means. I like spending time with friends regardless of the context. Not that I'm opposed to going out to EDM shows and clubs. For me, it's not about going to Ibiza for Ibiza's sake - it's about going to be with my buddies. The place doesn't matter, but it does make me sad that I would have to miss an opportunity to be with them when such opportunities don't come around often.

Tough decision here. Are your friends a lot younger than you? I actually agree that it's possible to go to Ibiza and NOT do the whole party thing... just like how it's possible to visit Thailand and not go to brothels and seedy go-go bars. However, it doesn't seem like your friends are exactly intending to go there to hit up the UNESCO heritage sites... it seems like you already know that they are going there to party.

So in your position, I probably wouldn't go. I'd tell them that I'd love to join them some other time at a different destination, if they want to do other things. And if they say no, all they ever want to do is party, I'd probably ask myself if this is a friends' group that I really want to be in at this point in my life. It's possible to outgrow friendships.

Edited June 4, 2024 by Els

[Alpacalia]

On 6/3/2024 at 4:23 PM, celticsfan2345 said:

What am I planning to do there: go to electronic music shows, spend time on the beach, all with my friends.

What part of the island: I'm not sure, I didn't organize. I think we'll be in the popular spots for sure.

Again, you are not out every night partying, you are going on a trip with your friends that you haven't seen in a while to a place that has a certain vibe. It's not an all out debauchery trip, and you can communicate this to your girlfriend.

If the trip was to Vegas or Mexico, would she feel the same? Ultimately, I think it's important to respect her feelings and concerns, but also to communicate effectively and come to a compromise that works for both of you. Perhaps you can agree on a set of rules or boundaries that you will follow during the trip, such as not drinking excessively or not staying out too late.

I'm sorry, but I hope for your sake she doesn't start complaining and asking you not to go to a concert - as if people there don't drink or do drugs. This isn't about the trip itself, it's about her not trusting you not to cheat, the end.

[Gebidozo]

1 hour ago, Alpacalia said:

This isn't about the trip itself, it's about her not trusting you not to cheat, the end.

Not necessarily. People can trust their partners not to cheat and still feel uncomfortable about something they do.

For example, just recently a friend of mine told me that he felt uncomfortable that his girlfriend was staying at a male friend’s house for a night. He definitely trusted her not to cheat, but he felt uncomfortable about that. I think it’s quite understandable.

[Alpacalia]

13 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Not necessarily. People can trust their partners not to cheat and still feel uncomfortable about something they do.

For example, just recently a friend of mine told me that he felt uncomfortable that his girlfriend was staying at a male friend’s house for a night. He definitely trusted her not to cheat, but he felt uncomfortable about that. I think it’s quite understandable.

You're talking about sharing close quarters with male friend versus an overall trip atmosphere. Male friend is more intimate, as well as being alone together. Being alone with a male friend can create a more intimate dynamic. Incidentally, any location can be reasonable for someone in a relationship to go on holiday; their attitude is what matters, not where they are!  

So working through your post, your friend's initial concern seems to be that she'll be hit on; but does it really matter if she is? This assumes that your male friend's girlfriend is committed to her boyfriend and their relationship, which I have no reason to doubt. If she is fully committed, she would be able to shut down any advances and would not let anything happen between them.

[Gebidozo]

11 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

You're talking about sharing close quarters with male friend versus an overall trip atmosphere. Male friend is more intimate, as well as being alone together. Being alone with a male friend can create a more intimate dynamic. Incidentally, any location can be reasonable for someone in a relationship to go on holiday; their attitude is what matters, not where they are!  

So working through your post, your friend's initial concern seems to be that she'll be hit on; but does it really matter if she is? This assumes that your male friend's girlfriend is committed to her boyfriend and their relationship, which I have no reason to doubt. If she is fully committed, she would be able to shut down any advances and would not let anything happen between them.

Look, I do see your point, I’m not saying you’re wrong or something, just that other people might feel different without necessarily being controlling, jealous beasts.

For what it’s worth, my fiancée says the same as you, almost word by word. She says she’d be ok with me going on any trips or spending time with any girl because she knows I won’t let anything happen.

But, like Gaeta said, people aren’t perfect and one should be sensitive to the feelings of your imperfect partner. If the OP’s girlfriend feels uncomfortable about him going on that trip, she feels uncomfortable. Her reasons are pretty clear, too.

The question is not whether the OP’s girlfriend should or could have been more perfect, but what should the OP do now.

Els suggested above that the OP could opt out of this trip and meet his friends in another, less controversial location. I agree with that advice.

[Alpacalia]

8 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Look, I do see your point, I’m not saying you’re wrong or something, just that other people might feel different without necessarily being controlling, jealous beasts.

For what it’s worth, my fiancée says the same as you, almost word by word. She says she’d be ok with me going on any trips or spending time with any girl because she knows I won’t let anything happen.

But, like Gaeta said, people aren’t perfect and one should be sensitive to the feelings of your imperfect partner. If the OP’s girlfriend feels uncomfortable about him going on that trip, she feels uncomfortable. Her reasons are pretty clear, too.

The question is not whether the OP’s girlfriend should or could have been more perfect, but what should the OP do now.

Els suggested above that the OP could opt out of this trip and meet his friends in another, less controversial location. I agree with that advice.

And that's fine that you agree he could opt out, but why should he? To assuage his girlfriend's insecurities and potentially limit his own experiences and relationships with others for her sake, when there is no actual harm being done and trust should be placed in the relationship? I see that as enabling insecurity and controlling behavior, not addressing the root issue.

There's also the possibility that the girlfriend is projecting her own insecurities onto the situation. She may be worried about her own behavior in a similar situation and is projecting that onto her boyfriend. Again, this is a conversation that should be had and worked through in the relationship, not avoided by the boyfriend sacrificing his individual autonomy.

I think our past shapes how we view these things. If someone was cheated on or they themselves have cheated in a relationship that perhaps  it shapes what a "normal" relationship should be and that colors how they view what is okay and what isn't. That is a conversation the couple needs to have and make sure they are in a healthy place as a couple before moving forward. 

I have never cheated, but I have been cheated on, but I would never want to be in a relationship where we start limiting each other in what they can and cannot do. Again, if OP was hanging out everynight at a strip club or going to Ibiza every other weekend I would say girlfriend has a point ---> this is ONE TRIP with friends he hasn't seen in a while, so we expect him to have all his friends change their plans because his girlfriend is insecure. Just seems like an unhealthy road to go down.

[Gaeta]

I don't know what is so hard to understand that for some of us some behavior are not relationship-behavior and it has nothing to do with trust. It's all about having standards. 

Behaviors like sleeping at an opposite gender friend, partying at Ibiza, going to strip clubs and so on.  If my bf did those l would not worry about cheating, l would be embarassed of his behavior because a man in a commitred relationship should leave all those at the door as they are single men behavior. 

@Alpacaliayou're ok with those behavior and that's alright. It does not mean we are wrong because we have higher expections in a relationship.

[Alpacalia]

2 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

 

@Alpacaliayou're ok with those behavior and that's alright. It does not mean we are wrong because we have higher expections in a relationship.

That's absurd. Higher expectations means telling people what they can and cannot do? No thanks.

ONE TRIP with friends he hasn't seen.

Sure.

Edited June 5, 2024 by Alpacalia

[Gaeta]

Just now, Alpacalia said:

That's absurd. Higher expectations means telling people what they can and cannot do? No thanks.

Where did l say we vould tell our partner what to do?

[Alpacalia]

1 minute ago, Gaeta said:

Where did l say we vould tell our partner what to do?

Gaeta, I'm done discussing this with you.

Agree to disagree.

[Gaeta]

Just now, Alpacalia said:

Gaeta, I'm done discussing this with you.

Agree to disagree.

That's alright.

[Gaeta]

57 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

For example, just recently a friend of mine told me that he felt uncomfortable that his girlfriend was staying at a male friend’s house for a night. He definitely trusted her not to cheat, but he felt uncomfortable about that. I think it’s quite understandable.

My bf has a female friend of many years and she lives out of town. Before we met he used to visit her and slept over there in the guest room.  When we became a couple he told me from now on when he visits her city he would not sleep at her house but would take a hotel. My answer to him was 'l trust you' she's been your friend for so many years...he said it's not about trust, it's about having a proper behavior while in a relationship. It's a simple concept.

[Alpacalia]

Sleeping at someone's house frequently is quite different from one vaca. 😅

I've NEVER had a bf sleep at a female friend's house and vice-versa even before we met.

Edited June 5, 2024 by Alpacalia

[Gebidozo]

 

1 hour ago, Alpacalia said:

To assuage his girlfriend's insecurities and potentially limit his own experiences and relationships with others for her sake, when there is no actual harm being done and trust should be placed in the relationship?

There's also the possibility that the girlfriend is projecting her own insecurities onto the situation.

You’d be totally right if we knew for sure that what motivates the OP’s GF are her insecurities. But we don’t know that. You just assumed that she doesn’t want him to go on that trip because she’s insecure. Maybe your assumption is right. Or maybe this has nothing to do with her insecurities and she just doesn’t want him to go because such a trip crosses the boundaries of what she considers proper behavior within a relationship. 

There are many things I’d be uncomfortable with my fiancée doing without in the least being insecure. For example, I wouldn’t want her to go to a nudist beach. I absolutely trust her that she wouldn’t cheat on me even if she does go. Moreover, I understand that nudism isn’t about sexual stimulation and that some people don’t mind it when others see their partner naked. I do mind, and this has nothing to do with my insecurities.

Edited June 5, 2024 by Gebidozo

[Els]

I think an important part of the context is how she voiced her opinion. If she said something like "it would make me feel uncomfortable if you did XYZ because ABC", then IMO that's fine and reasonable. It's part of healthy communication for someone to be able to voice their feelings if they feel uncomfortable about something, and to have a civil discussion about it. Especially if it's about something that is clearly controversial (in the sense that there are so many people who disagree about it).

If, on the other hand, she said "you're not going" or "I won't allow you to go" etc, then that would be controlling and a red flag.

[Alpacalia]

9 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

 

You’d be totally right if we knew for sure that what motivates the OP’s GF are her insecurities. But we don’t know that. You just assumed that she doesn’t want him to go on that trip because she’s insecure. Maybe your assumption is right. Or maybe this has nothing to do with her insecurities and she just doesn’t want him to go because such a trip crosses the boundaries of what she considers proper behavior within a relationship. 

There are many things I’d be uncomfortable with my fiancée doing without in the least being insecure. For example, I wouldn’t want her to go to a nudist beach. I absolutely trust her that she wouldn’t cheat on me even if she does go. Moreover, I understand that nudism isn’t about sexual stimulation and that some people don’t mind it when others see their partner naked. I do mind, and this has nothing to do with my insecurities.

What is "proper behavior" in a relationship? Does that entail not going on vacation with your friends to another country that some people incorrectly view solely as a sex fueled orgy scene?

OP said he is going to electronic music shows, spend time on the beach, all with his friends. He said he doesn't drink that much and doesn't take drugs.

Does this look like an orgy to you:

 

Edited June 5, 2024 by Alpacalia

[celticsfan2345]

On 6/4/2024 at 2:14 PM, Lotsgoingon said:

@celticsfan2345you've gotten great (and vigorously argued) comments. 

What's your updated thinking after looking at the comments?

 

I appreciate everyone's input.

 

After talking to my therapist and close friends more in-depth (who all agree with @Alpacalia's POV btw) and really just checking in with myself, I have come to the conclusion that I need to make it clear that a non-negotiable for me in a relationship is that absent of any prior commitments to each other, time with friends is prioritized and never infringed upon. Simply being uncomfortable with a location in itself is not valid grounds to veto a trip with friends. A trip with friends is not the type of thing can be vetoed. Specific activities can be vetoed, like going to strip clubs (which have the direct intention of sexual gratification from another person) or giving my number to any women who ask, but outside of that, making assumptions about what I will do on a trip based on the "temptations" present and being more worried about the "optics" of me taking that trip rather than trusting my character is not something I'm okay with. I just feel suffocated with the whole thing.

There's a lot more context here, a lot more things that were said between us, and a lot more that I'm thinking about as I bring this all up to her in conversation. I'm a little nervous, not going to lie. But I can't continue feeling like my social life is at the mercy of her comfort levels, which seem to me right now to be largely based on the "optics" of the trip.

Perhaps I will make a post with the full context in the future for more general advice, which I could definitely use.

[Gaeta]

Before throwing all that at her,  about asking her what would make her feel better about the trip?

It's unclear, did she, or did she not, ask you to not go?

Did she at any time insinuate you could cheat? Because you left this out of your story.

I'm reading your update and l'm feeling there is a lot of context missing, you also did not reply to our questions like is she the controlling  type to begin with? 

[Lotsgoingon]

OP, sounds like you reached some strong clarity. Really great that you shared this dilemma with therapists and friends. 

The worst move to make is to agree to a request we don't like or respect ... and then to hold resentment. That's the worst. Only we can know if we will hold resentment. 

Good luck. 

Edited June 5, 2024 by Lotsgoingon

[basil67]

@celticsfan2345 I love how you've considered all advice, plus spoken to a professional and figured out what's right for you.  

[Alpacalia]

3 hours ago, celticsfan2345 said:

There's a lot more context here, a lot more things that were said between us, and a lot more that I'm thinking about as I bring this all up to her in conversation. I'm a little nervous, not going to lie. But I can't continue feeling like my social life is at the mercy of her comfort levels, which seem to me right now to be largely based on the "optics" of the trip.

I feel like it's a matter of almost questioning your character because there are going to be "temptations" present and I don't think that is fair.  

Based on what exactly? Electronic music? Does someone that listens to electronic music have a greater likelihood of committing infidelity? 

It's a tough conversation to have, and one that requires a lot of vulnerability and honesty from both parties. It sounds like you are really struggling with feeling suffocated in this relationship and feeling like your social life is at the mercy of your partner's comfort levels. That is definitely not a sustainable or healthy dynamic in a relationship.

If you go on this trip and do something foolish --> that's on you and you will learn the hard way. I have been to an electronic show and yes, it was cray, I left after 10-15 minutes, no drugs nor sex. Just there with friends and family.

Have there been any instances in the past where trust has been broken or boundaries have been crossed? Is there something else that may be fueling these concerns? I know you alluded to some things in the past that have caused tension between you two, so perhaps addressing those underlying issues can help provide some clarity on this matter.