Mixed signals? delusion? stupid? lol

[Gebidozo]

6 minutes ago, Gulf-Delta said:

i think youre conflating 2 things...aain

 

there;s not any frenzied leaps here. i can praise myself and be aware that im not physically attractive

Physically attractive? You didn’t say that. You said just “I’m not too attractive”. Right after you said you were ideal.

I’m not sure you fully understand what physical attraction is. Anyone can be physically attracted to anyone else, it’s not an objective trait, it’s sexual chemistry that works very subjectively on many levels. You probably wanted to say you weren’t classically handsome or something like that. Well, that means very little to most normal women. Like my Mom says, “a man should be just a little bit more handsome than a chimp”😊

So don’t worry about that and always believe that you can be attractive!

Edited June 8 by Gebidozo

[Gebidozo]

3 minutes ago, Gulf-Delta said:

man, i thought i was pessimistic. the internet is just fully poison, wtf

Reminding you of some basic life principles is “poison”? Why? What’s pessimistic in understanding that there is no such thing as “deserving” in love? On the contrary, believing that you “deserve” someone will invariably lead to disappointment, heartbreak, and eventually deep despair. Now that’s pessimistic.

[basil67]

2 hours ago, Gulf-Delta said:

man, i thought i was pessimistic. the internet is just fully poison, wtf

You might see the internet as poison, but remember that pride is one of the 7 deadly sins

I think that both @Gebidozo and I are noticing a lack of humility on your part and this can rub people up the wrong way.

My view is that it's terrific that you've overcome a tough past and have built self esteem.  You have come much further than others who have walked in your shoes.  But the best presentation is to have a mix of good self esteem while also being humble.  It's really lovely when we discover all the positive traits another has by getting to know them.....not by having them tell us how good or deserving they are.  

 

 

[Gulf-Delta]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

You might see the internet as poison, but remember that pride is one of the 7 deadly sins

I think that both @Gebidozo and I are noticing a lack of humility on your part and this can rub people up the wrong way.

My view is that it's terrific that you've overcome a tough past and have built self esteem.  You have come much further than others who have walked in your shoes.  But the best presentation is to have a mix of good self esteem while also being humble.  It's really lovely when we discover all the positive traits another has by getting to know them.....not by having them tell us how good or deserving they are.  

 

 

i am humble. in fact, probably to a fault,, most would say. im not going to tell this girl im a good, deserving man, obivously. i brought it up here in the context of a discussion. this isnt stuff i go around publically saying about myself. this is an anonymous internet forum about relationships, and it came up.

 

im actually kind fo weirded out that you think how people speak here would be reflective of how they act in person on a coffee date.

[basil67]

22 minutes ago, Gulf-Delta said:

i am humble. in fact, probably to a fault,, most would say. im not going to tell this girl im a good, deserving man, obivously. i brought it up here in the context of a discussion. this isnt stuff i go around publically saying about myself. this is an anonymous internet forum about relationships, and it came up.

 

im actually kind fo weirded out that you think how people speak here would be reflective of how they act in person on a coffee date.

Humbleness isn't a superficial trait where we limit what we say about ourselves in public.  Rather, it's something which runs through to the soul.   Whether you be saying that you're good and deserving to privately to yourself or in public, it's still prideful.    

A more humble person might say that they do their very best to be a good partner and hope they find someone who appreciates them.   A truly humble person doesn't feel they deserve partner because X and Y.  

 

Edited June 8 by basil67

[Gebidozo]

1 hour ago, Gulf-Delta said:

i am humble

No, you’re not. No humble person will ever call himself “humble”. That’s the whole point of being humble.

1 hour ago, Gulf-Delta said:

im not going to tell this girl im a good, deserving man, obivously. i brought it up here in the context of a discussion. this isnt stuff i go around publically saying about myself.

Good, but that only means that you’re polite and modest, not humble. A humble person wouldn’t think the way you do.

1 hour ago, Gulf-Delta said:

im actually kind fo weirded out that you think how people speak here would be reflective of how they act in person on a coffee date.

No, but it’s reflective of what they are.

I should have been more clear when I advised you not to tell that girl that you think that you’re good and deserving. What I mean is you shouldn’t feel like that. 

[Gulf-Delta]

6 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

No, you’re not. No humble person will ever call himself “humble”. That’s the whole point of being humble.

Good, but that only means that you’re polite and modest, not humble. A humble person wouldn’t think the way you do.

No, but it’s reflective of what they are.

I should have been more clear when I advised you not to tell that girl that you think that you’re good and deserving. What I mean is you shouldn’t feel like that. 

yes, they would call themselves humble thats how words work

 

this thread is getting crazy

[Gebidozo]

29 minutes ago, Gulf-Delta said:

yes, they would call themselves humble thats how words work

 

this thread is getting crazy

No, a humble person would never call themselves humble. Do you understand what the word “humble” means? 

I don’t know about this thread, but I think you could perhaps be a bit more consistent and logical. You’re insanely attracted to a girl and see her as a wife candidate, yet have no romantic feelings for her; you are every woman’s dream but unattractive; you’re humble and you proudly say that. All this makes little sense, sorry.

[mark clemson]

12 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

I’m not sure you fully understand what physical attraction is. Anyone can be physically attracted to anyone else, it’s not an objective trait, it’s sexual chemistry that works very subjectively on many levels. You probably wanted to say you weren’t classically handsome or something like that. Well, that means very little to most normal women. Like my Mom says, “a man should be just a little bit more handsome than a chimp”😊

So don’t worry about that and always believe that you can be attractive!

As true as this is in specific cases it's ALSO true that being handsome/beautiful gives you a statistical tendency towards attraction that can make it a LOT easier to find someone. Without the initial interest that "being handsome" generates, it's a longer and more difficult road for attraction to develop, with the slower development there are more opportunities for a budding romance to be derailed, etc, etc.

That said it's also true that there are many ways a man can be attractive to women, including simply having a solid social role such as being a first responder or even a dentist. But good looks are going to dovetail with that and not-so-good looks are going to generate "friction" to a greater or lesser extent.

I was recently chatting with some guys about our HS experiences and one of us said "no, girls never took an interest in me". This was specifically due to looks. He did eventually end up married tho, just took longer and with fewer relationships along the way. He's a cop BTW.

Edited June 8 by mark clemson

[mark clemson]

OP, in the situation you describe I believe I'd do the following -

1. Not worry about this girl overmuch. Keep your mind very open to other possibilities which might develop faster/more readily.

2. Stay open to the possibility something might develop, given her ambiguity in interest. Some women are bolder and/or more skilled than others when it comes to starting a relationship. Don't be openly overly interested; do allow for normal, positive social interaction if that occurs.

3. Allow her to lead - IF she continues to show interest in you and/or drop hits about potential relationship thoughts you can ask again if she would like to go on a date, with perhaps a bit of "let's try this again" humor thrown in to show you have no hard feelings. Her answer at that juncture will speak volumes.

Edited June 8 by mark clemson

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[Gebidozo]

1 minute ago, mark clemson said:

As true as this is in specific cases it's ALSO true that being handsome/beautiful gives you a statistical tendency towards attraction that can make it a LOT easier to find someone. Without the initial interest that "being handsome" generates, it's a longer and more difficult road for attraction to develop, with the slower development there are more opportunities for a budding romance to be derailed, etc, etc.

That said it's also true that there are many ways a man can be attractive to women, including simply having a solid social role such as being a first responder or even a dentist. But good looks are going to dovetail with that and not-so-good looks are going to generate "friction" to a greater or lesser extent.

I was recently chatting with some guys about our HS experiences and one of us said "no, girls never took an interest in me". He did eventually end up married tho, just took longer and with fewer relationships along the way. He's a cop BTW.

Well, I don’t know. Every woman I’ve ever been with told me looks didn’t matter much. I don’t think anyone ever fell for me thanks to my looks. I think I look just ok, but I never “lost” to a better-looking guy, nor have I ever had any trouble “getting” any woman I liked, and it was never slower or anything because I don’t look like a movie star with a six pack.

That can’t be just me, some of my friends are even less good-looking than I, yet have even greater success with women. One good friend of mine is short, small-boned, and looks a bit like a chimp, yet he is one of the biggest Don Juans I know.

[mark clemson]

49 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Well, I don’t know.

Certainly social skills, personality and in fact a lot of other things matter too. My point is only that good looks can help things go faster/improve the odds and for some men can be "enough". They are certainly not the only thing that might attract women, they just help a lot for a guy who's out there looking.

I don't believe women who say "looks don't matter" - at the initial formative stage they do. I see how women react when I'm "cleaned up" vs. just ordinary and it's noticeable how they treat me differently, etc. That certainly doesn't mean looks are they only thing that matters, though.

Edited June 8 by mark clemson

[basil67]

5 hours ago, mark clemson said:

I don't believe women who say "looks don't matter" - at the initial formative stage they do.

If you've ever read ZA Dater discussing this, you'll see that I've written about "looks don't matter to me" many times.   I've talked about how my husband drew me in by being fun and interesting and good company, and this piqued my interest and now I think he's so sexy.    My daughter recently told me that she nearly swiped left on her boyfriend because she wasn't so attracted, but he hooked her with a good opening line and from there they started dating and now she thinks he's super sexy and she's hoping to get engaged this year.  

I would like to think I've been here long enough and been genuine enough for you to believe what I write about my personal experience

[mark clemson]

@basil67 fair enough + but you're a specific woman. I'm talking about a statistical tendency.

I have experiences too - despite what many say, as a tendency women appear to behave somewhat differently with attractive men. Women seem to find me a LOT more interesting to talk to when I look "cleaned up" - when less so, I tend to be ignored or dismissed relatively quickly in terms of interest.

Go to a typical bar for young people - you're not trying to tell me most of the women there are glancing at, chatting with each other about, and eventually communicating with/chasing the most unattractive men in the place, right? Quite the opposite is what you'll typically find.

Now if those super-attractive men have crap personalities, poor social skills, or other issues, most of the women are likely to move on. But being attractive as a statistical tendency helps you get your foot in the door. It makes things a lot easier IF "the rest of you" is also acceptable.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not at all saying there aren't many other ways a man CAN be attractive to women other than "looks" - I think I know perhaps better than many that there are (having read A Billion Wicked Thoughts which goes into detail on this stuff). However, all other things being equal, as a male the path to being paired up tends to be a shorter one if you're attractive. (Which is not that different for how it tends to go for a woman, either.)

Edited June 8 by mark clemson

[basil67]

3 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

@basil67 fair enough + but you're a specific woman. I'm talking about a statistical tendency.

I have experiences too - despite what many say, as a tendency women appear to behave somewhat differently with attractive men. Women seem to find me a LOT more interesting to talk to when I look "cleaned up" - when less so, I tend to be ignored or dismissed relatively quickly in terms of interest.

Go to a typical bar for young people - you're not trying to tell me most of the women there are glancing at, chatting with each other about, and eventually communicating with/chasing the most unattractive men in the place, right? Quite the opposite is what you'll typically find.

Now if those super-attractive men have crap personalities, poor social skills, or other issues, most of the women are likely to move on. But being attractive as a statistical tendency helps you get your foot in the door. It makes things a lot easier IF "the rest of you" is also acceptable. That's all I'm saying.

I understand what you're saying.  Rather than debating attraction as a whole, I was responding specifically to you not believing what individual women say about their personal experience.  

And for sure, being 'cleaned up' is definitely a thing.  I've never worried about how handsome or hot a guy is at a base level, but I do expect them to do the best they can with what they've got.  Whether he be hot or not, I'm not going to be with a guy who doesn't make an effort in his presentation.  Decent clothes, good haircut, clean fingernails...

[mark clemson]

Ah, I was not trying to invalidate your personal experience/tastes by any means. I meant it can't be taken as a generalization about women (which I have seen made). I do agree putting some effort in is part of it for men, more so than (I think) many of them tend to realize.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

I meant it can't be taken as a generalization about women (which I have seen made).

Given the diversity of human experience, any generalisation (all men/all women think, feel, act) is automatically wrong.    Though I would hazard a guess that a number of those who prioritise immediate visual attraction of a partner probably have a harder time dating than those who don't.   Simply because the pool is smaller and there's arguably more competition.

Edited June 9 by basil67

[Gebidozo]

 

4 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Go to a typical bar for young people - you're not trying to tell me most of the women there are glancing at, chatting with each other about, and eventually communicating with/chasing the most unattractive men in the place, right? Quite the opposite is what you'll typically find.

Oh, but a typical bar for young people is hardly a place where serious attraction leading to deep feelings and a serious relationship would take place. That is just a place for casual pickups, for which the most superficial physical choice criteria would suffice. I mean, you can’t even talk normally in those places. I didn’t even think we were discussing that kind of “attraction”, since this topic deals with serious romantic intentions and such.

Of course, in such a place I would “lose” to more athletic and classically handsome guys (even if I were their age), but then again, that wouldn’t be a “battle” I’d be interested in winning in the first place. Girls frequenting such places and selecting men based almost exclusively on such a superficial criterium as physical appearance wouldn’t be interested in me, and I’m never interested in girls who aren’t interested in me. I’m just wired that way. I can’t desire a woman who doesn’t find me attractive, it’s like a contradiction in terms to me.

Which means that, on my own “turf”, among women who do find me attractive, my looks are really just one of the factors, definitely not among the important ones. I can imagine that a guy who’d be just the same as me, yet physically much uglier, would “lose” to m in an environment filled with such women, but a much better-looking guy who doesn’t have what I have would “lose” to me as well, without any doubt. That’s why totally believe it when women say looks don’t matter much.

Does this make any sense?🤔 

 

[Gulf-Delta]

13 hours ago, mark clemson said:

OP, in the situation you describe I believe I'd do the following -

1. Not worry about this girl overmuch. Keep your mind very open to other possibilities which might develop faster/more readily.

2. Stay open to the possibility something might develop, given her ambiguity in interest. Some women are bolder and/or more skilled than others when it comes to starting a relationship. Don't be openly overly interested; do allow for normal, positive social interaction if that occurs.

3. Allow her to lead - IF she continues to show interest in you and/or drop hits about potential relationship thoughts you can ask again if she would like to go on a date, with perhaps a bit of "let's try this again" humor thrown in to show you have no hard feelings. Her answer at that juncture will speak volumes.

1. noted

2. she is not the bold type. her interest is not ambiguous. she is interested, but....she want to make sure im the guy God intends for her. neither of us are skilled at this, and have admitted so. we're just gonna take things organically, no pressure. i told her that "dating" is weird for me, she kind of said the same for her. i told her in text after that i hope i wasnt too forward, she said i wasn't, and she appreciates the direct approach

3. no. she wont lead. she told me specifically during the date that she likes the guy to lead and pursue one of the reasons she went out with me was because i took the initiative and asked.

 

when i asked for a second date, she said she wasnt sure. this sounds bad,, but the tone and context lead me to feel like she was interested in it, but doesnt wanna go too fast. she dated a guy before who pretended to be a christian, but wasnt actually, and was a piece of s***. so she wants to vet me, i guess. she told me she was gonna pray about it, and prayed about the first date as well (and look where we ended up, right?), and then she told me to pray about it. we are both inexperienced in dating, she doesnt "know how this stuff works". i told her it was ok, we dont have to label anything or go fast.

 

i know, the consensus here will be that "anything but a yes is a no", but that isnt the case here, especially the text after she mentioned she appreciated the direct approach. ive given her many chances to say shes not interested, or she just wants to be freinds, ive given her outs, she isnt taking them. maybe, just maybe, i should believe the girl instead of doubting her all the time

 

when i left i she was taking forever to pull out and drive off. i drove by and looked in her car and shes on the phone, smiling huge. so i think i did good, shes just cautious.

Edited June 9 by Gulf-Delta

[basil67]

8 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Go to a typical bar for young people - you're not trying to tell me most of the women there are glancing at, chatting with each other about, and eventually communicating with/chasing the most unattractive men in the place, right? Quite the opposite is what you'll typically find.

Perhaps you frequented different types of bars to me.  

When I'd go out to a bar with friends, most of were there to have fun with each other.  There was one girl in our group who'd make a beeline for the hottest guy and we'd roll our eyes and know there'd be tears before too long because he'd be a player

[Gulf-Delta]

Is there a way to delete threads?

[basil67]

Moderators aren't around much these days, but you can flag this thread and ask for it to be closed.   Might take a while

[Gulf-Delta]

55 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Moderators aren't around much these days, but you can flag this thread and ask for it to be closed.   Might take a while

well the thread is useless now. everyone was right, she's not interested in me. no second date, she didnt feel any connection.

 

im really hurt about it, not just because of the girl herself, but because, again, im beat down. how many times am i expected to go through this and not care. "oh dude, just pick yoursefl up, other fish in the sea"...how many times am i supposed to just pick myself and pretend this s*** doesnt hurt. i find a girl i see potential in, and feel strong and confident enough in this attraction to ask her out, and things go really well, and then here i am, back at square one, feeling dejected, hurt, lonliness with no light on the horizon over s*** i cant control

 

not only was she not into it, she was so not into it she wouldnt even give me a 2nd date to see there was potential!

 

im over it, how many more years am i supposed to do this?

[basil67]

5 minutes ago, Gulf-Delta said:

im really hurt about it, not just because of the girl herself, but because, again, im beat down. how many times am i expected to go through this and not care. "oh dude, just pick yoursefl up, other fish in the sea"...how many times am i supposed to just pick myself and pretend this s*** doesnt hurt. i find a girl i see potential in, and feel strong and confident enough in this attraction to ask her out, and things go really well, and then here i am, back at square one, feeling dejected, hurt, lonliness with no light on the horizon over s*** i cant control

I'm sorry it didn't work out.   

But kindly, you got yourself way over invested in this and this is why you're crashing so hard now.   Having confidence in something is a great trait, and without confidence there is little chance of success.  But confidence needs to be tempered with reality.  And reality is that even though things might look good, it doesn't mean it will always work out.  And this is true for all parts of life: from applying a great job, to bidding on a house at auction, to dating and even to marriage.   The only time we can have a huge amount of confidence is when there are no other people involved in the decision.  So manage your expectations so that you won't fall in a heap if it doesn't work out.  

Anyone who's ever been brave enough to ask another person on a date has been disappointed in one or some or many outcomes.  Heck, I'm a woman and have asked men out and been disappointed.  But all we can do is pick up, move on.  And again, manage our expectations in the beginning.

In this case, many of us were telling you that what you saw as signs of interest could be misconstrued, but you were determined otherwise.  May I suggest looking back at what we wrote and review it with fresh eyes?  Reflect on why you couldn't see what we were seeing.  Think about what you can learn from this and use in the future.

Lastly, I'm going to preempt something which could happen:  If you go to bible study and find a different woman you're interested in, please think twice.  You don't want to be that person who tries to date different people in the same group.  Same rule for any other interest you have where there are others involved.  And yes, I've been that person....I cringe looking back at it now.