FWB/Situationship

[FredEire]

Hey all.

I've been in a FWB thing for the last couple of months with a girl I knew as an acquaintance a few years ago and matched with on OLD.

I went through a pretty bad experience in November with something I got way too emotionally invested in too soon (which I posted about here: https://www.loveshack.org/forums/topic/618353-disaster-of-a-second-date/#google_vignette). So I decided that I just want to date casually for a while.

We had the talk about what we want etc. on the first date and she said that she wasn't looking for anything serious either as she got out of a tough breakup 2 years ago (involving cheating, leaving a flat she had bought with her ex etc). So she just wants to get out and meet people.

The first couple of weeks went well, just hanging out and getting to know eachother. Then one day she said she'd like to go on a trip with me one weekend. I was honest with her and said it seemed a little serious to go on trip and she said she understood and felt embarrassed as she didn't want anything serious either but it was just something she like doing with her friends and didn't want me to take it the wrong way.

So after that things were good for another while, in general I felt like our communication was very good and we were able to talk about anything. It was nice as the one LTR I've had quickly involved into a toxic mess of subliminals and cold shoulders and it made me question if I maybe regard this as part of attraction and "love" when it really shouldn't be.

I've had a hard time gauging how I really feel about it, I rarely ever get the butterfly sensation for someone, and when I have it's never tended to work out or is for someone inappropriate who isn't on the same wavelength as me, as with the example of the thing in November I mentioned above.

My flatmate (who's also as psychologist!) takes a very cynical view that most girls I spend time with don't reach a baseline level of "hotness" and this is why I don't easily develop feelings. I don't know if this is necessarily the case as I was seeing someone before this girl who was superficially very attractive but we didn't have a whole lot in common when when drifted apart and it ended I didn't feel all that moved.

With this girl I feel much more of a connection, I wouldn't say she's drop-dead gorgeous but after hanging out with her I always leave feeling nice vs other times I've dated people in the past, haven't been as communicative and just leave with a bad feeling that I'm wasting both of our time. There's a couple of personality differences e.g she's always running around doing something, I'm very much the opposite, but I can think of many other couples e.g my grandparents who are the same way quite happily.

What's hanging over our heads is that I'm planning to go travelling for a couple of months from August, and she has family planning to visit pretty much all of July. She's known this from quite early on, but the other week she asked about my plans and I told her. Last night I was over at hers and she told me, "when you were telling me about your plans I was happy for you but I also felt like crying".

Trying to be a good communicator, I asked if she was still happy with where we were at, and she got very upset and said she had already been over it with me that we weren't serious and she felt silly and used that I kept bringing it up. She also mentioned that she liked things to develop over time and people saying they want something serious is a "red flag" (which I definitely don't agree with).

There was a very awkward feelings of distance after that and I left feeling very bad and that maybe the whole thing has just gone past a point of no return now.

I'm very apprehensive about relationships in general (my parents were together growing up but had no relationship to speak of so coldness, distance and arguments was pretty much the norm) and have long had a feeling that I may selectively "choose" unavailable people to develop strong feelings for, along with a fear of being trapped in a LTR with someone I don't have the right level of feelings for as way my parents case. Added to this is probably a bit of Tinderitis where I constantly question whoever I'm with if there might be something better around the corner.

I favoured being open about casual dating at the moment because I know I have a lot of issues and fears around LTRs and I don't want to dick anyone around nor get dicked around expecting something that's not going to come to fruition. With this though I almost feel like everyone involved getting hurt is an inevitability and it just feels horrible.

My head is a bit fried, so apologies if that was a different read or some of it didn't make too much sense. Any thoughts would be appreciated, cheers.

Edited June 13 by FredEire

[Gaeta]

19 minutes ago, FredEire said:

she got out of a tough breakup 2 years ago

As soon as I read this part I went oh oh! and I knew the rest of the post would be about her developing feelings. I think she is developing feeling but decided to mirror you to keep the fwb going. It seems to me that you both like each other very much but don't want to jinx it by jumping in both feet. It's alright, there is no special map to follow except to respect yourself and each other through this process. Don't hide or lie on how you feel would be a good start. When she said she would miss you, it would have been a good moment to reciprocate you will miss her too, of course if it's how you feel. 

On a side note, I have been on dates with a couple of psychologists in my days and they're like the most dysfunctional people ever lol. For your room-mate to tell you a woman worthiness is judged on her hotness kind of support my theory on them. 

So you'll be busy, I am sure you will find time to keep in touch and have quick visits - which could be exciting 🙂

Edited June 13 by Gaeta

[Sony12]

Yeah while she likely enjoys the sex sex probably isn't enough for her (which is the case for most women). You two likely will continue to grow distant from each other as when it comes down to it you two aren't looking for the same thing.

Men tend to be much more content with 'just sex' than women are. Women might enjoy the sex with a particular guy but for the vast majority of them they get that thrill from having a relationship with someone..

If a guy finds a gal who truly does just want something casual he needs to hold onto her because chances are it will be difficult for him to find another situation like that.

 

 

Edited June 13 by Sony12

[Sony12]

This is one of the reasons I started dating older women because while many of them still would like a relationship they at the same time aren't really looking for a relationship from a guy a lot younger than them.

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, Gaeta said:

As soon as I read this part I went oh oh! and I knew the rest of the post would be about her developing feelings. I think she is developing feeling but decided to mirror you to keep the fwb going. It seems to me that you both like each other very much but don't want to jinx it by jumping in both feet. It's alright, there is no special map to follow except to respect yourself and each other through this process. Don't hide or lie on how you feel would be a good start. When she said she would miss you, it would have been a good moment to reciprocate you will miss her too, of course if it's how you feel. 

On a side note, I have been on dates with a couple of psychologists in my days and they're like the most dysfunctional people ever lol. For your room-mate to tell you a woman worthiness is judged on her hotness kind of support my theory on them. 

So you'll be busy, I am sure you will find time to keep in touch and have quick visits - which could be exciting 🙂

I did, I don't think she wanted to hear it at the time, hopefully it meant something.

And yeah that's my impression of what's been going on, in truth I'd like a healthy LTR but I don't want to be a flaky disappointment for a girl who's ready to jump in if I tell her I'm looking for something serious off the bat.

Part of my issue has always been just accepting and feeling things, it's not just in dating. People often describe me as very zen and stoic but it's far from my inner state, I just push it down.

In dating it's either absence of feelings (very often) or (rarely) strong infatuation, as in the other thread I linked above, where I over-analysed every little thing and spent an unreasonable amount of time ruminating on what I may or may not have done wrong after the second date ended unceremoniously.

I go to therapy and it's something I've been exploring, as I know there should be a healthier middle ground. My understanding is that I may let all the feelings pour out for emotionally unavailable women due to the "safety" of it being unlikely to go anywhere.

I know when I don't have any romantic feelings for someone, but there's cases such as this one where I feel something (otherwise I don't think I'd feel so shitty about it) but can't connect with it fully, to the point where I'm questioning if I really give a damn or if I'd really miss her when I go away etc. But when I said it it felt genuine.

The travelling is meant to be in the US and South America and I live in Europe, but don't have flights etc booked so it's not set in stone.

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, Sony12 said:

Yeah while she likely enjoys the sex sex probably isn't enough for her (which is the case for most women). You two likely will continue to grow distant from each other as when it comes down to it you two aren't looking for the same thing.

Men tend to be much more content with 'just sex' than women are. Women might enjoy the sex with a particular guy but for the vast majority of them they get that thrill from having a relationship with someone..

If a guy finds a gal who truly does just want something casual he needs to hold onto her because chances are it will be difficult for him to find another situation like that.

 

 

Indeed it doesn't usually work out that way in my experience. Something closer to a booty-call may function in the sense that you're laying the boundary that it's purely sex, but if you're spending any amount of time together it usually gravitates in a certain direction.

The only time I've had a FWB that "worked" there was some unusual circumstances, like a girl I met who was bi and preferred women but was curious about men. We spent some time together but the feeling was purely that we were mates who had sex sometimes rather than any underlying tension.

[Sony12]

11 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Indeed it doesn't usually work out that way in my experience. Something closer to a booty-call may function in the sense that you're laying the boundary that it's purely sex, but if you're spending any amount of time together it usually gravitates in a certain direction.

The only time I've had a FWB that "worked" there was some unusual circumstances, like a girl I met who was bi and preferred women but was curious about men. We spent some time together but the feeling was purely that we were mates who had sex sometimes rather than any underlying tension.

 

Yeah I have never had a FWB work with a lady who was around the same age range as me. We may have a lot of chemistry but often it turns into a situation where she ends up feeling a little used.

For me FWB has only worked when I was around the same age as the ladies kids as in that scenario they aren't really going to want to date you seriously in anyway.

Do you prefer women around your same age? You might have better luck with FWB's if you date outside of your age group.

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, Sony12 said:

 

Yeah I have never had a FWB work with a lady who was around the same age range as me. We may have a lot of chemistry but often it turns into a situation where she ends up feeling a little used.

For me FWB has only worked when I was around the same age as the ladies kids as in that scenario they aren't really going to want to date you seriously in anyway.

Do you prefer women around your same age? You might have better luck with FWB's if you date outside of your age group.

Yes, generally.

I did have a weird "boy toy" phase in my early 20s where I seemed to exclusively date women in their mid-30s (not intentionally).

Even then though it either ended with the girl wanting a relationship and I didn't or maybe being eventually weirded out by the age gap.

[Sony12]

2 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Yes, generally.

I did have a weird "boy toy" phase in my early 20s where I seemed to exclusively date women in their mid-30s (not intentionally).

Even then though it either ended with the girl wanting a relationship and I didn't or maybe being eventually weirded out by the age gap.

 

Yeah overall casual dating does tend to work better when the lady doesn't view the guy as any type of relationship material. When you are around the same age and you seem to get along pretty well chances are the lady will begin to view you as relationship material even if it started off as just a physical attraction thing.

[stillafool]

5 hours ago, FredEire said:

Last night I was over at hers and she told me, "when you were telling me about your plans I was happy for you but I also felt like crying".

Yep, she's developed feelings for you and is not being honest about it.  She got upset because even though she's said she isn't interested in getting serious she is hoping that you are too and will say something to let her know.  It might be time to end this if you don't see it going further.

[smackie9]

FWB is a relationship with strong guidelines, like can date others, if feelings happen it's over, see them only once a week, not obligated to text, only to set up meetings/dates, etc. She's caught feelings and your option is to put the brakes on and end it now. Go travelling and enjoy. So what if she gets hurt, she's an adult, it's not your responsibility ...it's part of the deal with FWB/casual dating...you take your chances. 

[FredEire]

53 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Yep, she's developed feelings for you and is not being honest about it.  She got upset because even though she's said she isn't interested in getting serious she is hoping that you are too and will say something to let her know.  It might be time to end this if you don't see it going further.

Yeah like when we were talking last night she was being obtuse, getting upset about the fact of me bringing up that we were casual dating. Like why get upset... unless she wants more than that. And then acting as if I wasn't being straight with her. I was a bit disappointed as her communication has been pretty great up until now.

I suspect there's a bit of her own apprehension over putting a more serious label on it after her last crappy relationship thrown into the mix, and she was maybe afraid of getting shot down if she just came out and said he had feelings.

Edited June 13 by FredEire

[Sony12]

5 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Yeah like when we were talking last night she was being obtuse, getting upset about the fact of me bringing up that we were casual dating. Like why get upset... unless she wants more than that. And then acting as if I wasn't being straight with her. I was a bit disappointed as her communication has been pretty great up until now.

I suspect there's a bit of her own apprehension over putting a more serious label on it after her last crappy relationship thrown into the mix, and she was maybe afraid of getting shot down if she just came out and said he had feelings.

Did she actually ever say she just wanted an FWB situation or was she just basically saying ok to what you said?

[FredEire]

2 minutes ago, Sony12 said:

Did she actually ever say she just wanted an FWB situation or was she just basically saying ok to what you said?

Yeah she did, she said she basically hadn't had much much of anything since her breakup and was just looking to get out and meet people without thinking relationships, so basically FWB was a good arrangement.

[Sony12]

16 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Yeah she did, she said she basically hadn't had much much of anything since her breakup and was just looking to get out and meet people without thinking relationships, so basically FWB was a good arrangement.

Ok sounds like she was probably just wanting a guy in her life in some form at the time but casual likely wasn't going to be something she would be satisfied with for any significant amount of time.

[FredEire]

32 minutes ago, Sony12 said:

Ok sounds like she was probably just wanting a guy in her life in some form at the time but casual likely wasn't going to be something she would be satisfied with for any significant amount of time.

Yeah I'd say that's most likely on point.

[MsJayne]

7 hours ago, FredEire said:

people saying they want something serious is a "red flag" (which I definitely don't agree with).

And this is where you should exit. In the context of the conversation you were having this is an insult. 

 

7 hours ago, FredEire said:

have long had a feeling that I may selectively "choose" unavailable people to develop strong feelings for,

Yes, "unavailable" people are often also emotionally abusive people. Maybe you're looking for a relationship which mirrors your parents. 

[FredEire]

57 minutes ago, MsJayne said:

And this is where you should exit. In the context of the conversation you were having this is an insult. 

 

Yes, "unavailable" people are often also emotionally abusive people. Maybe you're looking for a relationship which mirrors your parents. 

I sort of get her point as some of the "looking for a serious man to build my life around" type stuff on OLD reeks of desperation. But there's certainly nothing wrong with settling down being the aim if that's where you're at. I found it a bit immature more than anything.

On the unavailability, very much so. Throughout my dating life there's been a lot of "I threw my toys out of the pram but only because YOU did x, y and z" type stuff. No accountability and no discussing stuff as adults, just blaming, cold shoulders and subliminals.

As I said generally when we've been seeing eachother she's been very open, kind and fair with me, which has been really nice and a breath of fresh air. It's taught me that I've been way too tolerant of a lot of BS because I've sort of learned to view it as "normal" and taken it on myself., when being kind and honest (but not honesty to the point of treating someone like a dickhead when the mood takes you) should actually be what's normal

Edited June 13 by FredEire

[Alpacalia]

8 hours ago, FredEire said:

Trying to be a good communicator, I asked if she was still happy with where we were at, and she got very upset and said she had already been over it with me that we weren't serious and she felt silly and used that I kept bringing it up. She also mentioned that she liked things to develop over time and people saying they want something serious is a "red flag" (which I definitely don't agree with).

There was a very awkward feelings of distance after that and I left feeling very bad and that maybe the whole thing has just gone past a point of no return now.

I'm very apprehensive about relationships in general (my parents were together growing up but had no relationship to speak of so coldness, distance and arguments was pretty much the norm) and have long had a feeling that I may selectively "choose" unavailable people to develop strong feelings for, along with a fear of being trapped in a LTR with someone I don't have the right level of feelings for as way my parents case. Added to this is probably a bit of Tinderitis where I constantly question whoever I'm with if there might be something better around the corner.

This situation serves both of you.

Sure, we can say that she's just going to break your heart someday. And that could happen. But in the meantime, you guys are using each other to learn and practice dealing with things like: communicating directly and honestly, dealing with fear without bailing out on each other, talking about your feelings and needs, standing up for yourself and your wants even when it's scary and makes you vulnerable, and so on.

There are no guarantees that whatever romantic partner you wind up with is going to be able to not have these kinds of conflicts with you without it eventually resulting in the ruination of the relationship, but you're both getting practice doing it with each other.

You have these "open casual" conditions, and that's it. Just because you're worried you're so terribly messed up that nobody in the world could possibly ever make a relationship work with you, doesn't mean it's necessarily true. 

"Read the signs wrong" or we can say that you were actually mixed messaging her.. I mean, here in this very post above - the bolded is your own avoidance.

You also "kind of" insinuated she was a rebound. No. No, you did those things too. She kind of went along with it until she hit her limit. 

[FredEire]

32 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

This situation serves both of you.

Sure, we can say that she's just going to break your heart someday. And that could happen. But in the meantime, you guys are using each other to learn and practice dealing with things like: communicating directly and honestly, dealing with fear without bailing out on each other, talking about your feelings and needs, standing up for yourself and your wants even when it's scary and makes you vulnerable, and so on.

There are no guarantees that whatever romantic partner you wind up with is going to be able to not have these kinds of conflicts with you without it eventually resulting in the ruination of the relationship, but you're both getting practice doing it with each other.

You have these "open casual" conditions, and that's it. Just because you're worried you're so terribly messed up that nobody in the world could possibly ever make a relationship work with you, doesn't mean it's necessarily true. 

"Read the signs wrong" or we can say that you were actually mixed messaging her.. I mean, here in this very post above - the bolded is your own avoidance.

You also "kind of" insinuated she was a rebound. No. No, you did those things too. She kind of went along with it until she hit her limit. 

Thanks @Alpacalia.

Yes, I think the first couple of paragraphs describes well the feeling I've got from it so far, that we went into it in a similar way in a lot of senses, both maybe a bit naive in terms of handling the ups and downs of relationships, and it's been quite healthy and worthwhile for both of us just feeling things out.

Yes, I'm well aware I have plenty to work on and I'm doing my best. I think I can do better standing within my feelings and acknowledge my fear and apprehension but not let it speak for me, as it leads to all kinds of bad communication and mixed messages.

Edited June 13 by FredEire

[stillafool]

4 hours ago, FredEire said:

Yeah like when we were talking last night she was being obtuse, getting upset about the fact of me bringing up that we were casual dating. Like why get upset... unless she wants more than that. And then acting as if I wasn't being straight with her. I was a bit disappointed as her communication has been pretty great up until now.

I suspect there's a bit of her own apprehension over putting a more serious label on it after her last crappy relationship thrown into the mix, and she was maybe afraid of getting shot down if she just came out and said he had feelings.

Could be.  Also there are a lot of women who say they just want a FWB relationship when they really like a guy.  They think with good sex and time spent together it will automatically morph into a relationship.  When it doesn't, and the guys feelings don't end up matching theirs, they get hurt.  This is when the dynamics of the FWB set up change and drama ensues.  That's why if you know you don't have the same feelings you should move on and not prolong her pain.

Edited June 14 by stillafool

[Gebidozo]

I think it’s obvious that the girl has developed romantic feelings for you. 

Which means that, whatever you guys chose to call this situation before, it’s not an FWB relationship anymore.

I think she’s expecting you to take it to the next level, not by asking her questions, but by showing her unambiguous romantic affection that would make it clear to her that you have deep feelings for her. The stuff she says about not being serious is probably just defensive mechanism she uses to cope with her fear of LTRs.

That’s the reason why she was so annoyed when you asked her whether she was ok with the current arrangement. She doesn't want you to be ok with it. 

So, the question is, regardless of what she wants, regardless of your own issues and fears: do you have feelings for this girl? Do you want to take it to the next level?

[Alpacalia]

6 hours ago, FredEire said:

Thanks @Alpacalia.

Yes, I think the first couple of paragraphs describes well the feeling I've got from it so far, that we went into it in a similar way in a lot of senses, both maybe a bit naive in terms of handling the ups and downs of relationships, and it's been quite healthy and worthwhile for both of us just feeling things out.

Yes, I'm well aware I have plenty to work on and I'm doing my best. I think I can do better standing within my feelings and acknowledge my fear and apprehension but not let it speak for me, as it leads to all kinds of bad communication and mixed messages.

The part about her saying "she doesn't want anything serious either" in response to your disclosure about your travel plans and afterwards she said what she did... cause she DOES like you.

She likely sees these plans as a huge obstacle to her getting close to you. I know you were looking at this more that she didn't want anything "serious" but somehow I think she was putting that label to placate you early on.

She's clearly trying to inch closer to you but your fear prevents you from fully opening up but at least going with the flow is a good first step for you.

Edited June 14 by Alpacalia

[ZA Dater]

17 hours ago, FredEire said:

Hey all.

I've been in a FWB thing for the last couple of months with a girl I knew as an acquaintance a few years ago and matched with on OLD.

I went through a pretty bad experience in November with something I got way too emotionally invested in too soon (which I posted about here: https://www.loveshack.org/forums/topic/618353-disaster-of-a-second-date/#google_vignette). So I decided that I just want to date casually for a while.

We had the talk about what we want etc. on the first date and she said that she wasn't looking for anything serious either as she got out of a tough breakup 2 years ago (involving cheating, leaving a flat she had bought with her ex etc). So she just wants to get out and meet people.

The first couple of weeks went well, just hanging out and getting to know eachother. Then one day she said she'd like to go on a trip with me one weekend. I was honest with her and said it seemed a little serious to go on trip and she said she understood and felt embarrassed as she didn't want anything serious either but it was just something she like doing with her friends and didn't want me to take it the wrong way.

So after that things were good for another while, in general I felt like our communication was very good and we were able to talk about anything. It was nice as the one LTR I've had quickly involved into a toxic mess of subliminals and cold shoulders and it made me question if I maybe regard this as part of attraction and "love" when it really shouldn't be.

I've had a hard time gauging how I really feel about it, I rarely ever get the butterfly sensation for someone, and when I have it's never tended to work out or is for someone inappropriate who isn't on the same wavelength as me, as with the example of the thing in November I mentioned above.

My flatmate (who's also as psychologist!) takes a very cynical view that most girls I spend time with don't reach a baseline level of "hotness" and this is why I don't easily develop feelings. I don't know if this is necessarily the case as I was seeing someone before this girl who was superficially very attractive but we didn't have a whole lot in common when when drifted apart and it ended I didn't feel all that moved.

With this girl I feel much more of a connection, I wouldn't say she's drop-dead gorgeous but after hanging out with her I always leave feeling nice vs other times I've dated people in the past, haven't been as communicative and just leave with a bad feeling that I'm wasting both of our time. There's a couple of personality differences e.g she's always running around doing something, I'm very much the opposite, but I can think of many other couples e.g my grandparents who are the same way quite happily.

What's hanging over our heads is that I'm planning to go travelling for a couple of months from August, and she has family planning to visit pretty much all of July. She's known this from quite early on, but the other week she asked about my plans and I told her. Last night I was over at hers and she told me, "when you were telling me about your plans I was happy for you but I also felt like crying".

Trying to be a good communicator, I asked if she was still happy with where we were at, and she got very upset and said she had already been over it with me that we weren't serious and she felt silly and used that I kept bringing it up. She also mentioned that she liked things to develop over time and people saying they want something serious is a "red flag" (which I definitely don't agree with).

There was a very awkward feelings of distance after that and I left feeling very bad and that maybe the whole thing has just gone past a point of no return now.

I'm very apprehensive about relationships in general (my parents were together growing up but had no relationship to speak of so coldness, distance and arguments was pretty much the norm) and have long had a feeling that I may selectively "choose" unavailable people to develop strong feelings for, along with a fear of being trapped in a LTR with someone I don't have the right level of feelings for as way my parents case. Added to this is probably a bit of Tinderitis where I constantly question whoever I'm with if there might be something better around the corner.

I favoured being open about casual dating at the moment because I know I have a lot of issues and fears around LTRs and I don't want to dick anyone around nor get dicked around expecting something that's not going to come to fruition. With this though I almost feel like everyone involved getting hurt is an inevitability and it just feels horrible.

My head is a bit fried, so apologies if that was a different read or some of it didn't make too much sense. Any thoughts would be appreciated, cheers.

Apologies for what might appear to be a simplistic response. She wanted to go on a trip, in this I read she enjoys your company, is comfortable with you, likewise with her wanting to cry when you mentioned going travelling. Clearly she has feelings.

Here it seems you do have a lot in common and importantly you do feel a connection, I do believe the butterfly feeling is also one of connection on some level. Importantly you feel nice with her, again that a very subjective thing which is good. Again the fact you have a personality differences and it works very important.

How bad you feel depends really on what you plan to do, do you want to spend more time with her and progress it into a relationship? The big bold piece I relate to very well in some respects but you also need to realize dating is not rigid, what happens to one might not happen to everyone.

My advice, do not overthink this too much but do try decide what you actually want.

[FredEire]

2 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

The part about her saying "she doesn't want anything serious either" in response to your disclosure about your travel plans and afterwards she said what she did... cause she DOES like you.

She likely sees these plans as a huge obstacle to her getting close to you. I know you were looking at this more that she didn't want anything "serious" but somehow I think she was putting that label to placate you early on.

She's clearly trying to inch closer to you but your fear prevents you from fully opening up but at least going with the flow is a good first step for you.

No, we had the conversation on the first date before I'd mentioned any travel plans. She was actually the first one to mention casual as she'd spent a long time hopping into bad relationships and said she just wanted to get out there and experiment.

I've been in situations where a girl says she's on board just to make me feel happy, which is why I try and talk about it early on and not make the mistake of my younger self of not talking about it or leaving it to much later, but this time it felt genuine. But in terms of where we are now, yes you may well be right.

Edited June 14 by FredEire