Is this totally flawed

[ZA Dater]

How do you move ahead but disconnect yourself from the end result? Say for example I meet someone I get along well with from a conversational point of view, my usual approach would be to try weight what chance she might actually be interested and then tailor my approach according to that, which mostly means go for friends.

False confidence, does this work hand and in hand with trying to ignore the end result?  I absolutely need to find confidence here be it genuine or false.

Do you bring judgement into how you react or do you simply base it on the emotions at the time, by this I mean do you try envisage how the interaction may play out?

How much vulnerability should a person show? 

The reason I ask is I have quite a number of events, dinners and suchlike and I am tired of going to all these on my own and I thought about asking someone I know to a degree with the view nothing will come of it but in the back of my mind maybe this would present an opportunity for me try  break my regimented and flawed way of thinking and see what might happen.

No OLD has been a refreshing change for me and I've started to feel a bit better about myself. 

[Gebidozo]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

False confidence, does this work hand and in hand with trying to ignore the end result?

Confidence doesn’t mean being sure of the desired result. Confidence means that even if you don’t achieve that result, you’re still going to be fine.

 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Do you bring judgement into how you react or do you simply base it on the emotions at the time, by this I mean do you try envisage how the interaction may play out?

I base it on my emotions. Being sincere and going in without expectations is always the best way. 
 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

How much vulnerability should a person show? 

If I’m interested in a serious relationship with the other person, I show 100% vulnerability.

 

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

Confidence doesn’t mean being sure of the desired result. Confidence means that even if you don’t achieve that result, you’re still going to be fine.

 

I base it on my emotions. Being sincere and going in without expectations is always the best way. 
 

If I’m interested in a serious relationship with the other person, I show 100% vulnerability.

Thanks, I am going to try not repeat the usual mistakes I make and try find some confidence. Its challenging for me to base things on emotions because I spend most days working with risk and probability but again I'll try. Likewise with vulnerability, most of the time I cannot show this at all because if I did I'd get metaphorically battered. What I am going to try and to open up but again how much I do this is challenging to decide.

I often feel like I very rarely show people who I am, in the sense I hold a lot back for fear of being judged. Fear is also something that lurks in the background, working on ways to try and overcome that. My motivation for this is to see if these changes can bring different results in other aspects of life. 

[Alpacalia]

Disconnecting from the end result means focusing on the present and enjoying the moment without worrying about what might come out of it in the future. It means being open to different outcomes and not being attached to a specific result. Be true to yourself and not try to manipulate the situation based on what you think the other person might want. Trust that if a connection is meant to happen, it will happen naturally without forcing it.

False confidence can be helpful in getting you through a nerve-wracking situation, but it is not sustainable in the long run. If you continuously rely on false confidence, it can become exhausting and drain your energy. Instead, try to find genuine sources of confidence within yourself, such as recognizing your strengths and positive qualities.

[NuevoYorko]

“Success is stumbling from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm.” - Winston Churchill

[FredEire]

Glad no OLD is going well for you. The more time goes on the more damaging and toxic I think it is myself. Leave it behind and focus on meeting people in real life.

The secret is to flow and say to hell with it, it might seem complex to someone who hasn't connected with it yet but it should be really simple.

Find the joy in life, connect with yourself and others and have fun. A playful, joyful person is really attractive no matter their age, creed, location, circumstances etc etc.

There's a lot of rubbish going on in the world but on a very base level we're all still just scared children trying to connect with the world and figure things out. I think if you can find that place and have fun with it things will start going better and better.

[basil67]

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

How do you move ahead but disconnect yourself from the end result? Say for example I meet someone I get along well with from a conversational point of view, my usual approach would be to try weight what chance she might actually be interested and then tailor my approach according to that, which mostly means go for friends.

As a woman who was never shy about asking a guy out back in the day:   First of all, I'd just give it a crack.  It might work, it might not but I'll never know if I don't try.  I don't over think it.  Actually, I didn't think much about it at all.   But don't go for friends, because the odds of being knocked back are pretty high and it then gets weird for everyone.   Plus you'd get a reputation as the guy who hits on his friends (I learned this as a teenager!) I very much embarrassed myself doing this.   

You need to put yourself in situations where you're regularly meeting new people

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

False confidence, does this work hand and in hand with trying to ignore the end result?  I absolutely need to find confidence here be it genuine or false.

I guess that "fake it till you make it" is a thing.   But there's no point in focussing on the end result when you've got no power over how it ends.  This isn't like a work project which you're in charge of.

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Do you bring judgement into how you react or do you simply base it on the emotions at the time, by this I mean do you try envisage how the interaction may play out?

I never considered the end result or the interaction - I just jumped straight in

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

How much vulnerability should a person show? 

What kind of vulnerability are you talking about?  I'm not sure how vulnerability would fit in a scenario where you're asking a woman out.

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The reason I ask is I have quite a number of events, dinners and suchlike and I am tired of going to all these on my own and I thought about asking someone I know to a degree with the view nothing will come of it but in the back of my mind maybe this would present an opportunity for me try  break my regimented and flawed way of thinking and see what might happen

I'm not sure what you mean.   Yes, sometimes you can take a friend as a plus one to an event, but how would this break your regimented thinking? 

 

[ZA Dater]

16 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

Disconnecting from the end result means focusing on the present and enjoying the moment without worrying about what might come out of it in the future. It means being open to different outcomes and not being attached to a specific result. Be true to yourself and not try to manipulate the situation based on what you think the other person might want. Trust that if a connection is meant to happen, it will happen naturally without forcing it.

False confidence can be helpful in getting you through a nerve-wracking situation, but it is not sustainable in the long run. If you continuously rely on false confidence, it can become exhausting and drain your energy. Instead, try to find genuine sources of confidence within yourself, such as recognizing your strengths and positive qualities.

This is extremely interesting and thanks for sharing this, much appreciated. Its a very different perspective I needed to read, I just tend to look at the end result and get fixated on that and any idea is defined by that. Which is not totally correct. 

What has made my look at this differently is to recognize I do have positive qualities.

[ZA Dater]

21 hours ago, FredEire said:

Glad no OLD is going well for you. The more time goes on the more damaging and toxic I think it is myself. Leave it behind and focus on meeting people in real life.

The secret is to flow and say to hell with it, it might seem complex to someone who hasn't connected with it yet but it should be really simple.

Find the joy in life, connect with yourself and others and have fun. A playful, joyful person is really attractive no matter their age, creed, location, circumstances etc etc.

There's a lot of rubbish going on in the world but on a very base level we're all still just scared children trying to connect with the world and figure things out. I think if you can find that place and have fun with it things will start going better and better.

You are right, I tend to try do an analysis on everything and "if this happens it must mean that" but its largely futile as its not possible to read the minds of others. I am also going to try fight my internal fear "what would she think if I asked her that" and simply just as the question rather than wonder what the answer might be. Its very very difficult to do this because again I most days need to try anticipate problems before they arrive so I tend to take this view into the way I communicate.

 

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

You are right, I tend to try do an analysis on everything and "if this happens it must mean that" but its largely futile as its not possible to read the minds of others. I am also going to try fight my internal fear "what would she think if I asked her that" and simply just as the question rather than wonder what the answer might be. Its very very difficult to do this because again I most days need to try anticipate problems before they arrive so I tend to take this view into the way I communicate.

 

That's a really good insightful breakthrough I think!

Life is about letting your spirit flow. It's a lot more about how you feel than any particular action causing a particular outcome. If youre in the right mindset of living in the moment and being open to anything, better things will happen.

[Alpacalia]

11 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

This is extremely interesting and thanks for sharing this, much appreciated. Its a very different perspective I needed to read, I just tend to look at the end result and get fixated on that and any idea is defined by that. Which is not totally correct. 

What has made my look at this differently is to recognize I do have positive qualities.

You do. I know I give you a hard time but it's because I know you have potential. You just need to work on a few things and  have a better attitude. I see a lot of potential in you and I want you to see it in yourself too. You can do great things, you just need to believe it. 

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

That's a really good insightful breakthrough I think!

Life is about letting your spirit flow. It's a lot more about how you feel than any particular action causing a particular outcome. If youre in the right mindset of living in the moment and being open to anything, better things will happen.

This is spot on. The ideas we hold about the world guide our actions. If our perspective is negative, then our actions will reflect that, creating a negative reality. But if we shift our mindset to one of openness and positivity, our actions will follow suit, creating a better reality for ourselves. 

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

You do. I know I give you a hard time but it's because I know you have potential. You just need to work on a few things and  have a better attitude. I see a lot of potential in you and I want you to see it in yourself too. You can do great things, you just need to believe it. 

This is spot on. The ideas we hold about the world guide our actions. If our perspective is negative, then our actions will reflect that, creating a negative reality. But if we shift our mindset to one of openness and positivity, our actions will follow suit, creating a better reality for ourselves. 

Very kind words, thank you! One of the worst things I did to myself was tell myself I am not good enough because over time I ended up believing it but it also has to be said my run on OLD was far too long and there was damage done as a result.

What is proving difficult to to try and leave my inherent risk analysis out of the equation and the huge amount of second guessing I do. Therapy was terrible experience for me because it and people around me made very self aware to the point where I pick and choose my words very carefully rather than act to spontaneously, a truly exhausting way to to live being concerned about every single word and action.

I am going to try kick that away and try think less, the other thing I do is burden myself with the problems of others which further weights me down and as I learnt recently these people actually could not care less about me, quite a hurtful experience this was. 

Ironically one of the greatest worries I have is what people would think for example this flawed thinking goes like this " how do I ask her if she wants to come to this event with me", "if  use that word it could mean that", "what if she says no then any chance I had is gone and what will she think of me"  "well nobody has ever said yes before so why would she".

You can see how none of that is helpful and maybe its reflected in my general in person persona which does not help. Add the fact I double question myself and my judgement.

My plan here is to reach out,  see if she wants to meet up, my initial idea was to ask her to go to an event with me but as someone said that is friend zone from the off which is not the vibe I am looking for.

Opening myself up completely here, I can tell you all this, the only people who actually believe can do this are the people on this forum , there is nobody around me who provides much encouragement and advice, despite the fact I am often their virtual punching bag and need to offer advice on any manner of things. Thank you everyone.

[FredEire]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Very kind words, thank you! One of the worst things I did to myself was tell myself I am not good enough because over time I ended up believing it but it also has to be said my run on OLD was far too long and there was damage done as a result.

What is proving difficult to to try and leave my inherent risk analysis out of the equation and the huge amount of second guessing I do. Therapy was terrible experience for me because it and people around me made very self aware to the point where I pick and choose my words very carefully rather than act to spontaneously, a truly exhausting way to to live being concerned about every single word and action.

I am going to try kick that away and try think less, the other thing I do is burden myself with the problems of others which further weights me down and as I learnt recently these people actually could not care less about me, quite a hurtful experience this was. 

Ironically one of the greatest worries I have is what people would think for example this flawed thinking goes like this " how do I ask her if she wants to come to this event with me", "if  use that word it could mean that", "what if she says no then any chance I had is gone and what will she think of me"  "well nobody has ever said yes before so why would she".

You can see how none of that is helpful and maybe its reflected in my general in person persona which does not help. Add the fact I double question myself and my judgement.

My plan here is to reach out,  see if she wants to meet up, my initial idea was to ask her to go to an event with me but as someone said that is friend zone from the off which is not the vibe I am looking for.

Opening myself up completely here, I can tell you all this, the only people who actually believe can do this are the people on this forum , there is nobody around me who provides much encouragement and advice, despite the fact I am often their virtual punching bag and need to offer advice on any manner of things. Thank you everyone.

That's great! These are some of the most lucid posts I've seen you make since I've been on this forum. I think like @Alpacalia I can say that I see a little bit of myself in you and also the potential to do better which is why it's gotten a little frustrating sometimes seeing your thought loops.

There's a thing in comedy where a lot of the time "it's the way you tell them". Two comedians can tell exactly the same joke and one bombs while the other brings the house down. That's because it's all about the vibe and the connection with the crowd.

The overthinking one word etc is just an effort to control the uncontrollable. If the vibe is there is there, if it's not it's not, that's how it is most of the time.

One important thing is though that if you are finding yourself overthinking everything it's not going to send out an attractive vibe, because you come off as closed and analytic rather than open and curious.

[ZA Dater]

On 7/4/2024 at 2:04 PM, FredEire said:

That's great! These are some of the most lucid posts I've seen you make since I've been on this forum. I think like @Alpacalia I can say that I see a little bit of myself in you and also the potential to do better which is why it's gotten a little frustrating sometimes seeing your thought loops.

There's a thing in comedy where a lot of the time "it's the way you tell them". Two comedians can tell exactly the same joke and one bombs while the other brings the house down. That's because it's all about the vibe and the connection with the crowd.

The overthinking one word etc is just an effort to control the uncontrollable. If the vibe is there is there, if it's not it's not, that's how it is most of the time.

One important thing is though that if you are finding yourself overthinking everything it's not going to send out an attractive vibe, because you come off as closed and analytic rather than open and curious.

The bold is in my view extremely true, I seem to be found wanting at this. Agree you are right, my overthinking is trying to control the uncontrollable, spot on with that and when I look at it I have not managed to get it right even with overthinking. I do probably come across as being closed and its maybe why thinking back the more pleasant interactions I have had were ones where I did not try overthink at all but equally a lack of thinking also meant not seeing ways to escalate things.

One thing I always do is and this is a good example, so I want to meet someone, because I want to actually meet the person I become very agreeable "Hi would be great to meet for coffee let me know when you are free"

The problem I see with that is its not very decisive, would it not be better to do this "Hi, I am going to ABC next week Thursday, I hear they have really great coffee, would you like to join me"?

I am also quite obtuse because not often but sometimes I do not pick up on things "I enjoyed it, you were really great company" what I should do is say "Great I enjoyed your company too, how about we go to XYZ next week'  instead I do the whole "let me know when you are free" . Maybe I am wrong but my responses do not convey much confidence which maybe people pick up on? 

 

[FredEire]

16 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The bold is in my view extremely true, I seem to be found wanting at this. Agree you are right, my overthinking is trying to control the uncontrollable, spot on with that and when I look at it I have not managed to get it right even with overthinking. I do probably come across as being closed and its maybe why thinking back the more pleasant interactions I have had were ones where I did not try overthink at all but equally a lack of thinking also meant not seeing ways to escalate things.

One thing I always do is and this is a good example, so I want to meet someone, because I want to actually meet the person I become very agreeable "Hi would be great to meet for coffee let me know when you are free"

The problem I see with that is its not very decisive, would it not be better to do this "Hi, I am going to ABC next week Thursday, I hear they have really great coffee, would you like to join me"?

I am also quite obtuse because not often but sometimes I do not pick up on things "I enjoyed it, you were really great company" what I should do is say "Great I enjoyed your company too, how about we go to XYZ next week'  instead I do the whole "let me know when you are free" . Maybe I am wrong but my responses do not convey much confidence which maybe people pick up on? 

 

It can be hard if you don't naturally pick up on these things. In general though I'd say more direct is better. "Do you want to get a coffee some time next week?" Instead of "Would you like to have a coffee next week? Let me know when you're available". Much more personal and less businesslike.

On the second example I'd say generally just tell them you enjoyed the company too, and then later invite them to something else, taking the pressure off and letting things breathe a bit.

It's hard as I said if you sometimes don't naturally pick up on it. There's a lot of "feel" involved in it, and of course it depends on the individual you're talking to as well.

The good thing is if someones really into you they're not going to mind about quirks or being too blunt sometimes etc, they might find it charming in a way.

I think things like game and saying the right thing at the opportune moment is more important if you're trying to charm your way to a hook-up. Since you're looking for a relationship being open, sincere and nice but assertive are the most important things. The exact wording of a text shouldn't usually be a total deal-breaker.

The most important thing is just to try and then every mistake you make can just be seen as a lesson.

[FredEire]

I'd also add that being playful is really important. If you can playfully make fun of the girl and of yourself it's very disarming and lets her know that she can relax and have fun around you, which is really important when you're first getting to know someone.

[ZA Dater]

15 minutes ago, FredEire said:

It can be hard if you don't naturally pick up on these things. In general though I'd say more direct is better. "Do you want to get a coffee some time next week?" Instead of "Would you like to have a coffee next week? Let me know when you're available". Much more personal and less businesslike.

On the second example I'd say generally just tell them you enjoyed the company too, and then later invite them to something else, taking the pressure off and letting things breathe a bit.

It's hard as I said if you sometimes don't naturally pick up on it. There's a lot of "feel" involved in it, and of course it depends on the individual you're talking to as well.

The good thing is if someones really into you they're not going to mind about quirks or being too blunt sometimes etc, they might find it charming in a way.

I think things like game and saying the right thing at the opportune moment is more important if you're trying to charm your way to a hook-up. Since you're looking for a relationship being open, sincere and nice but assertive are the most important things. The exact wording of a text shouldn't usually be a total deal-breaker.

The most important thing is just to try and then every mistake you make can just be seen as a lesson.

I am going to try this more decisive more direct approach and see where it goes, in the back of my mind I am keeping site of the positives I have as a person. What I am also considering is guys generally need to act first rather than relying ladies to make effort to connect, again perhaps I am wrong. 

Unfortunately I do have a reputation for being a bit blunt. As for people being into me, well not being on OLD reduces me opportunities to near zero but I am not too unhappy about that. I'd rather be able just try people with people I am interested in that fish aimlessly in the hope I might find someone I like.

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

I am going to try this more decisive more direct approach and see where it goes, in the back of my mind I am keeping site of the positives I have as a person. What I am also considering is guys generally need to act first rather than relying ladies to make effort to connect, again perhaps I am wrong. 

Unfortunately I do have a reputation for being a bit blunt. As for people being into me, well not being on OLD reduces me opportunities to near zero but I am not too unhappy about that. I'd rather be able just try people with people I am interested in that fish aimlessly in the hope I might find someone I like.

You're correct, guys generally do have to make the effort. Thats not to say women don't sometimes take it upon themselves but I wouldn't work on that basis.

It might seem like near zero but if you meet someone in real life there's better odds it'll be a quality interaction.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, FredEire said:

You're correct, guys generally do have to make the effort. Thats not to say women don't sometimes take it upon themselves but I wouldn't work on that basis.

It might seem like near zero but if you meet someone in real life there's better odds it'll be a quality interaction.

What I must avoid is over thinking the interaction itself with this particular person but I am also buoyed by the fact I am going to be seeing someone else next week in the business context, someone who years ago took a very shy and awkward me (even more so than now) and gave me the time of day, took me for a make over (think the shopping scene from Pretty Woman in reverse) and gave me some confidence, a superficially stunning person with a beautiful personality. Have not seen her for a long time. 

One of my biggest problems is giving up before I start, admitting defeat before I start on the basis "I am not good enough", for too long I have held onto things which are not very helpful and more akin to anchors.

[basil67]

On 7/5/2024 at 11:47 PM, ZA Dater said:

a superficially stunning person with a beautiful personality.

ZA Dater, if you really want to get somewhere in dating, you've got to at least pretend that you don't objectify women.

I certainly understand wanting someone who's attractive as a partner, but friendship is supposed to be about plantonic connection of two people and their appearance should NEVER be part of the equation.  Back when I was young and pretty, if I found out that a male friend had listed my beauty as one of my positive attributes, I would step right back from the friendship.  It's one thing to secretly acknowledge the physical attractiveness of a friend, but learn to keep those thoughts to yourself.

 

Edited July 7 by basil67

[FredEire]

8 hours ago, basil67 said:

ZA Dater, if you really want to get somewhere in dating, you've got to at least pretend that you don't objectify women.

I certainly understand wanting someone who's attractive as a partner, but friendship is supposed to be about plantonic connection of two people and their appearance should NEVER be part of the equation.  Back when I was young and pretty, if I found out that a male friend had listed my beauty as one of my positive attributes, I would step right back from the friendship.  It's one thing to secretly acknowledge the physical attractiveness of a friend, but learn to keep those thoughts to yourself.

 

Indeed, one of the things that helped me stop putting women on a pedestal (though I've still slipped back into it sometimes unfortunately like most men) was making a few good female friends and realising they're just people like you and me and personality absolutely doesn't correlate with a pretty face, it's just an accident of birth. There's lovely unattractive women, unattractive women who are complete psycho b****es, and the same goes for really beautiful women. The sad reality is that men are much more willing to put up with the bs of the latter because they're beautiful.

There's countless women out there you'd find physically unattractive who you could get close to and have a great time with as a friend, and learn a lot about the opposite sex and yourself. Why would you reject that because they didn't win the genetic lottery? Why does not winning the genetic lottery determine your value as a human being?

Edited July 7 by FredEire

[Gebidozo]

2 hours ago, FredEire said:

There's lovely unattractive women, unattractive women who are complete psycho b****es, and the same goes for really beautiful women.

This is certainly true, but I’ve always wondered why some guys like and even love those physically attractive women who are complete psycho b****es. I’ve never met such women, but even those good-looking women who were a little bit like that immediately lost their appeal to me the moment their character was revealed.

I simply can’t find a “b****y” woman attractive, I lose all interest and desire to interact with such women, even if their faces and bodies correspond with some standards of beauty or whatever. On the contrary, their physical attractiveness just highlights the ugliness of character.

[FredEire]

19 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

This is certainly true, but I’ve always wondered why some guys like and even love those physically attractive women who are complete psycho b****es. I’ve never met such women, but even those good-looking women who were a little bit like that immediately lost their appeal to me the moment their character was revealed.

I simply can’t find a “b****y” woman attractive, I lose all interest and desire to interact with such women, even if their faces and bodies correspond with some standards of beauty or whatever. On the contrary, their physical attractiveness just highlights the ugliness of character.

I'm one of them unfortunately, the women I've been involved with who turned out to be the most moody, erratic and downright unstable plus pretty I was the most attracted to.

It's something I've never quite been able to figure out. It's counterintuitive, because for a stable relationship you want to meet someone patient, nice, good communicator etc, not someone who's going to flip the f*** out depending which way the wind is blowing.

Maybe it's the safety of their emotional unavailability, or the sort of nervous thrill ride of being with someone who's one misinterpreted comment away from blowing up. I'm not entirely sure and it's quite frustrating.

I've learned with time that you don't indulge this behaviour as that's playing right into their hands and feeding their victim complex, you just put down the ball, dont play their game and walk away. It seems to me that these people often don't like themselves very much, but the diva behaviour is an overcompensating display of brash confidence. I've also seen the depression and self-loathing in between self-righteous s***-fits.

[FredEire]

It's another concern I'd have for OP, that if he was able to get himself to the point of confidence that he was able to start having a bit of success in the dating game, he's still so focused on beauty that he might meet some woman with big brown eyes who turns his world upside down and not in a good way. There's individuals out there who can smell some underlying insecurity and in the long run can use it to play you like a fiddle.

[Alpacalia]

1 hour ago, Gebidozo said:

This is certainly true, but I’ve always wondered why some guys like and even love those physically attractive women who are complete psycho b****es. I’ve never met such women, but even those good-looking women who were a little bit like that immediately lost their appeal to me the moment their character was revealed.

I simply can’t find a “b****y” woman attractive, I lose all interest and desire to interact with such women, even if their faces and bodies correspond with some standards of beauty or whatever. On the contrary, their physical attractiveness just highlights the ugliness of character.

This is interesting. My father married my mother and she was the typical stay at home wife and acquiesced to being I guess what some people refer to as a 'doormat.' When they divorced, he only found himself in relationships with spicy latina women (not stereotyping) but those who spoke their minds and didn't like to be "told to do anything." I think some people are excited by strong and feisty characters and others are not. My father was drawn to it in the long run and always looked for it after the divorce.