Is this totally flawed

[Gebidozo]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

I'm one of them unfortunately, the women I've been involved with who turned out to be the most moody, erratic and downright unstable plus pretty I was the most attracted to.

 

Wow…. Sorry to hear that, man. I guess I’ve been incredibly lucky. All the women I’ve been involved with are pretty, nice, and kind. 

 

[Gebidozo]

1 hour ago, Alpacalia said:

This is interesting. My father married my mother and she was the typical stay at home wife and acquiesced to being I guess what some people refer to as a 'doormat.' When they divorced, he only found himself in relationships with spicy latina women (not stereotyping) but those who spoke their minds and didn't like to be "told to do anything." I think some people are excited by strong and feisty characters and others are not. My father was drawn to it in the long run and always looked for it after the divorce.

Oh, this is different. I am attracted to women who speak their minds, to strong and independent women. Feisty and spicy is great, I actually like “bad girls”, rebellious, non-conforming characters who own their choices and sexuality. I’m just not attracted to mean women or those with a crazy, completely erratic character, or those who lie and cheat. I haven’t actually met such women, just heard that they exist. 

I had a period during my 30’s when I was into “doormat” types. It really didn’t work well at all.

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, FredEire said:

Indeed, one of the things that helped me stop putting women on a pedestal (though I've still slipped back into it sometimes unfortunately like most men) was making a few good female friends and realising they're just people like you and me and personality absolutely doesn't correlate with a pretty face, it's just an accident of birth. There's lovely unattractive women, unattractive women who are complete psycho b****es, and the same goes for really beautiful women. The sad reality is that men are much more willing to put up with the bs of the latter because they're beautiful.

There's countless women out there you'd find physically unattractive who you could get close to and have a great time with as a friend, and learn a lot about the opposite sex and yourself. Why would you reject that because they didn't win the genetic lottery? Why does not winning the genetic lottery determine your value as a human being?

Perhaps controversially I have never have much luck with women as friends the conventional sense of what friendship is. What I mean buy this is the friendship is defined by what I can bring to the table, rather than any sort of mutual interest and connection in the sense of friends.  I did once have some success at this but then she wanted to date me and that was not a pleasant situation to deal with. 

What I am working on is framing everything positively because I land up in the negative space and OLD had a lot to do with this, I'd look at myself based on what liked me on the app and that is in hindsight a very stupid thing to do.

What I also need to do is live a bit more out of my head and try avoid overthinking but this is difficult when its basically a way of life. 

[FredEire]

42 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Wow…. Sorry to hear that, man. I guess I’ve been incredibly lucky. All the women I’ve been involved with are pretty, nice, and kind. 

 

Yeah I've met plenty of these girls too, unfortunately I usually just don't feel as into them for whatever reason.

36 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Oh, this is different. I am attracted to women who speak their minds, to strong and independent women. Feisty and spicy is great, I actually like “bad girls”, rebellious, non-conforming characters who own their choices and sexuality. I’m just not attracted to mean women or those with a crazy, completely erratic character, or those who lie and cheat. I haven’t actually met such women, just heard that they exist. 

I had a period during my 30’s when I was into “doormat” types. It really didn’t work well at all.

I agree with this. Unfortunately I find most women who act like immature b****es will often characterise themselves as the strong, independent type who "just speak their mind" and "if you can't handle me at my worst you don't deserve me at my best" etc.

You can have a fiery, passionate character but still be a nice, considerate person.

[FredEire]

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Perhaps controversially I have never have much luck with women as friends the conventional sense of what friendship is. What I mean buy this is the friendship is defined by what I can bring to the table, rather than any sort of mutual interest and connection in the sense of friends.  I did once have some success at this but then she wanted to date me and that was not a pleasant situation to deal with. 

What I am working on is framing everything positively because I land up in the negative space and OLD had a lot to do with this, I'd look at myself based on what liked me on the app and that is in hindsight a very stupid thing to do.

What I also need to do is live a bit more out of my head and try avoid overthinking but this is difficult when its basically a way of life. 

It sounds like you need to meet more women outside the business setting then as a business "friendship" is often pretty contrived.

Believe it or not not every female friend will want to date you. And if she does you have to let her know that you see your relationship as friends. If she feels too awkward and wants to end the friendship there well that's a shame but thats how it goes sometimes.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, FredEire said:

It's another concern I'd have for OP, that if he was able to get himself to the point of confidence that he was able to start having a bit of success in the dating game, he's still so focused on beauty that he might meet some woman with big brown eyes who turns his world upside down and not in a good way. There's individuals out there who can smell some underlying insecurity and in the long run can use it to play you like a fiddle.

I have a pretty good idea of what I like from a personality point of view and having been down this road of being used by a yoga instructor I enjoyed hanging out with I am very aware of this but the point is valid because getting this right would be a first of sorts. 

A lot of what I think has not helped me are beliefs with not much supporting evidence, whats perhaps might add something is there are heck of lot of people my friends describe as beautiful and I simply do not see the appeal mostly because of personality. The people I find myself really attracted to are attractive physically but not defined by that in the sense they are engaging but I could curse myself for not actually taking more  of a chance rather than admitting defeat. Admitting defeat came about because I simply overthought the situation and assumed defeat instead of anything else.

In essence I did not try. Perhaps what might help me with this particular person is the fact for once I did apparently leave a good impression but was so stupid in the follow up and once again got lost in "it cant work" and "I am not good enough". The reality with the last point is basically nobody around me believes I can ever get this right and if they do, they try set me up with people I have absolutely no interest in under the guise "she will be perfect".

Every time I think something defeatist the punishment is weights or a long walk. 

 

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, FredEire said:

It sounds like you need to meet more women outside the business setting then as a business "friendship" is often pretty contrived.

Believe it or not not every female friend will want to date you. And if she does you have to let her know that you see your relationship as friends. If she feels too awkward and wants to end the friendship there well that's a shame but thats how it goes sometimes.

Almost every single aspect of my life is connected to work in some way or other and has been for probably 20 odd years. The complexity here is that whoever I spend time with get thrown into a pot of extremely diverse personalities/extremely successful and in many instances people older than me, lets be honest this wont work for many people and I accept that, much like I would not work for someone who clubs and drinks most weekends, that sort of friendship is doomed. 

Basically I am trying to do more and think and fear less. Maybe if I can do this the outcome would matter a lot less.

[Gebidozo]

30 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Yeah I've met plenty of these girls too, unfortunately I usually just don't feel as into them for whatever reason.

Well, just “pretty and nice” isn’t really enough for me either. Shared interests, spirituality, emotional and sexual compatibility are all very important too. 

[FredEire]

8 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Well, just “pretty and nice” isn’t really enough for me either. Shared interests, spirituality, emotional and sexual compatibility are all very important too. 

I agree.

In my case though there's been a few things where most or all of that has been there and I still ended up feeling pretty "meh".

But give me a girl who's got big brown eyes and feels like she's ready to explode at me at any moment over something small and I'm head over heels 😂 Am unfortunately said explosion is usually the end result haha.

We've all got our own maladaptive attractions, ultimately figuring out the root of it is the only way to change it I think.

Edited July 7, 2024 by FredEire

[Gebidozo]

2 minutes ago, FredEire said:

We've all got our own maladaptive attractions

I don’t know… I’ve only ever been attracted to good, kind women. I was their maladaptive attraction😔

[FredEire]

9 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

I don’t know… I’ve only ever been attracted to good, kind women. I was their maladaptive attraction😔

Well, it's good that you were able to recognise and change that, because it seems to me the majority don't!

Imo people who end up with manipulative partners don't see it that way at all at the time, love is blind as they say. After all why on earth would anyone knowingly be getting manipulated?

It's only 5 years on from my last serious ex that I've now fully come to terms with how bad and emotionally abusive that relationship was, much of it through reading posts on this forum that sounded really familiar and coming to the realisation, "Jesus, that wasn't great was it?"

 

Edited July 7, 2024 by FredEire

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Gebidozo said:

Well, just “pretty and nice” isn’t really enough for me either. Shared interests, spirituality, emotional and sexual compatibility are all very important too. 

Me neither but to be fair what I guess draws me to someone is how they communicate, yes there needs to be some physical attraction but communication is vital. I am revisiting how I communicate because I have fallen into a habit of being vague and thinking people can read between the lines.  

I think while we all find different aspects attractive we all seek the same ultimate feeling.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

Well, it's good that you were able to recognise and change that, because it seems to me the majority don't!

Imo people who end up with manipulative partners don't see it that way at all at the time, love is blind as they say. After all why on earth would anyone knowingly be getting manipulated?

It's only 5 years on from my last serious ex that I've now fully come to terms with how bad and emotionally abusive that relationship was, much of it through reading posts on this forum that sounded really familiar and coming to the realisation, "Jesus, that wasn't great was it?"

 

I think over time we adapt and at that particular moment cannot see things for what they are but realise retrospectively. To a degree I have been manipulated almost every single time I have tried to date someone I found interesting, the attention was nice for someone noted used to attention so I perhaps compromised more than I should, in hindsight this sort of use and reject scenario is why I ended up with such a jaded view because in my mind I'd been so close yet so far to actually dating someone I found interesting.

Someone said to me " you cant control the world but you can control the way you react to it" which makes perfect sense but is ever so easy to forget.

I think its also tough as above to realise the bold, I met up with my ex last week for coffee and it was decidedly odd, the vibe was strange and I got the sense she was not exactly enamoured with her bf (who she moved in with 5 months after meeting), when I left I made an effort to rather remember the good times.

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

I agree.

In my case though there's been a few things where most or all of that has been there and I still ended up feeling pretty "meh".

But give me a girl who's got big brown eyes and feels like she's ready to explode at me at any moment over something small and I'm head over heels 😂 Am unfortunately said explosion is usually the end result haha.

We've all got our own maladaptive attractions, ultimately figuring out the root of it is the only way to change it I think.

For me I find people who radiate confidence, communicate well and in my mind I see some common ground, for me that is when I am 'I want to date her" but almost always these people are never single! 

Perhaps the counter argument for the above is if someone makes you feel good and you feel connected to them, then it might be worth severe compromise and like blind soldier we walk into that situation....

[FredEire]

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

For me I find people who radiate confidence, communicate well and in my mind I see some common ground, for me that is when I am 'I want to date her" but almost always these people are never single! 

Perhaps the counter argument for the above is if someone makes you feel good and you feel connected to them, then it might be worth severe compromise and like blind soldier we walk into that situation....

Sometimes you feel an instant, almost soul connection to someone, but unfortunately it can be for all the wrong reasons.

No, I think no matter the strength of the connection you have with someone, if you're experiencing conflict, jealousy, bad communication etc. etc. in the long run it's just going to make your life a misery. But that's the trap some fall into.

[FredEire]

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I think over time we adapt and at that particular moment cannot see things for what they are but realise retrospectively. To a degree I have been manipulated almost every single time I have tried to date someone I found interesting, the attention was nice for someone noted used to attention so I perhaps compromised more than I should, in hindsight this sort of use and reject scenario is why I ended up with such a jaded view because in my mind I'd been so close yet so far to actually dating someone I found interesting.

Someone said to me " you cant control the world but you can control the way you react to it" which makes perfect sense but is ever so easy to forget.

I think its also tough as above to realise the bold, I met up with my ex last week for coffee and it was decidedly odd, the vibe was strange and I got the sense she was not exactly enamoured with her bf (who she moved in with 5 months after meeting), when I left I made an effort to rather remember the good times.

 

I sometimes get the feeling you attribute malice and manipulation to a situation that may just be a misunderstanding of how interested the other person is.

Years ago I got chatting to a very pretty Spanish girl who told me she really wanted to practice English and wanted to meet up with me for a language exchange. I perceived her as flirty and got very upset when I found out she had a boyfriend and had no interest other than practicing her language skills.

Was she flirting a little to make me more interested in meeting up? Maybe, but more fool me for ascribing something more to it that was pretty much purely in my head. She was completely honest and more or less told me exactly what she actually wanted.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, FredEire said:

I sometimes get the feeling you attribute malice and manipulation to a situation that may just be a misunderstanding of how interested the other person is.

Years ago I got chatting to a very pretty Spanish girl who told me she really wanted to practice English and wanted to meet up with me for a language exchange. I perceived her as flirty and got very upset when I found out she had a boyfriend and had no interest other than practicing her language skills.

Was she flirting a little to make me more interested in meeting up? Maybe, but more fool me for ascribing something more to it that was pretty much purely in my head. She was completely honest and more or less told me exactly what she actually wanted.

The fundamental problem I have is this perception that nobody I am interested in is interested. Whether that is in fact reality I do not know because I have no way of knowing with any degree of certainty. In the above example I would enjoy the attention enough to teach her English simply because it gets the attention I cannot find, which again is a fundamentally wrong way of looking at it and as you say opens right up to manipulation.

Perhaps the core of this rests in self worth. 

[ZA Dater]

I've sort of got to the point where I am ready to simply ask and not be too concerned about the outcome but I do not want it to come across as business like. Any tips how to do that because lot of what I do is businesslike and I want to try make it clear this is social.

Another thing, what is the best way to deal with indecision here?

[basil67]

21 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The fundamental problem I have is this perception that nobody I am interested in is interested. Whether that is in fact reality I do not know because I have no way of knowing with any degree of certainty.

If someone isn't needing your help, and they contact you for a chat or a meet up, there is a good chance they are interested.   If you only ever hear from them when they want something, they are not interested

[FredEire]

22 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The fundamental problem I have is this perception that nobody I am interested in is interested. Whether that is in fact reality I do not know because I have no way of knowing with any degree of certainty. In the above example I would enjoy the attention enough to teach her English simply because it gets the attention I cannot find, which again is a fundamentally wrong way of looking at it and as you say opens right up to manipulation.

Perhaps the core of this rests in self worth. 

Yes, this is a problem, most of all because it keeps you from ever trying.

With that girl in my last post I learned a valuable lesson at the age of 20: don't jump in with both feet when a pretty girl comes asking for a favour.

But I learned that through trying and getting rejected. If I'd never tried I would have sat around wondering if she liked me and I hadn't had the guts, and resenting myself for not making the effort.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

If someone isn't needing your help, and they contact you for a chat or a meet up, there is a good chance they are interested.   If you only ever hear from them when they want something, they are not interested

This does answer the question to some degree, I only ever tend to hear from people when they need something from me which I guess is why rather stupidly I try turn those interactions into something more.

Its difficult though because to some degree I perceive those interactions as an opportunity when in fact they are not.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

Yes, this is a problem, most of all because it keeps you from ever trying.

With that girl in my last post I learned a valuable lesson at the age of 20: don't jump in with both feet when a pretty girl comes asking for a favour.

But I learned that through trying and getting rejected. If I'd never tried I would have sat around wondering if she liked me and I hadn't had the guts, and resenting myself for not making the effort.

There are days when I really do want to try and others where I question what I am actually looking for. OLD was a major major mistake but so is having no social life either so in a sense both sort of cancel each other out. 

The relationship I had with my ex was OK barring the fact there was no physical attraction at all, I am keen to try avoid that mistake but then I question whether I'd ever be able to attract people I do find physically attractive. I get it, personality can overcome that for some but my ex has an amazing warm personality and it was still not enough to overcome the lack of physical attraction.

I've resented myself often for not making the effort but again those I have been interested in have shown very little effort toward me so in that sense I can rationalize it.

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

There are days when I really do want to try and others where I question what I am actually looking for. OLD was a major major mistake but so is having no social life either so in a sense both sort of cancel each other out. 

The relationship I had with my ex was OK barring the fact there was no physical attraction at all, I am keen to try avoid that mistake but then I question whether I'd ever be able to attract people I do find physically attractive. I get it, personality can overcome that for some but my ex has an amazing warm personality and it was still not enough to overcome the lack of physical attraction.

I've resented myself often for not making the effort but again those I have been interested in have shown very little effort toward me so in that sense I can rationalize it.

Women generally don't make the effort, they drop hints.

Until you try you will never know. I suspect you'd have more success than you think provided you're willing to try a lot.

[ZA Dater]

26 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Women generally don't make the effort, they drop hints.

Until you try you will never know. I suspect you'd have more success than you think provided you're willing to try a lot.

I agree the problem is I am generally interested in very few people so the pool is already quite small in that regard. 

[FredEire]

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I agree the problem is I am generally interested in very few people so the pool is already quite small in that regard. 

I have the same issue. But you have you try when it does happen. If you try and fail OK life goes on, at least you tried and there was the chance to succeed. If you never try them you have already failed.

Edited July 9, 2024 by FredEire