going through a hard time

[heartwhole2]

Well, according to my husband.

It's been 10 years since my husband had an affair. I did a little bit of therapy, but I've always been pretty self-aware and usually get "graduated" quickly by the therapist who is like, "Um why are you seeing me again?" My husband's been in therapy since the affair. We tried marital counseling back then, but it was too soon and we didn't find it very helpful. 

So as far as I can tell, life is good. Kids are great, finances are good, sex life is good. Our main struggle is that I have a chronic illness, which I developed during pregnancy. So I have to rest a lot of the time and while I try to plan my day around important activities, sometimes I have to stay home while my family does stuff. This is very hard for my husband, who is an uber extrovert who is in constant motion. I don't work, which works for our family . . . my husband makes many times over what I did as a teacher. But my inability to match his busyness is a disappointment, I'm sure.

I'll also say that he craves newness. He's always starting new hobbies, investing in new businesses, joining new boards, and making new friends. I imagine for a person like that, monogamy is difficult. He's very successful in his career, but I know that the inability to pivot is hard for him. So this feels like a midlife funk.

All of this came out because recently he said another woman's name in his sleep, which wasn't great, but also didn't worry me too much. You can't control your subconscious, and I was as certain as I could be that there wasn't much to it beyond maybe subconscious desire. But when I brought it up, my husband did this thing that ten years of therapy has still not cured him of . . . he used my issue of the moment to pivot to all his unsaid grievances. He said that he has been in a "dark place" with our marriage for a long time. He was vague, even when I asked for clarification. He stressed that I have done nothing wrong and he doesn't want to hurt me. I have to assume he was saying that his feelings for me have cooled, whatever that means. I mean, he still seems to like and love and be attracted to me. I don't think that's something you can fake to a great extent. He said he's worried about when the kids leave the nest . . . will we live parallel lives then? (Now to be clear, I stay home while the family does stuff without me because he likes to plan very active things most nights of the week. If we planned a family movie night, then we could be together. But I don't want to hold my family back.)

It seems to me that these are all things that you should bring up with your spouse as they occur to you, maybe in counseling if you feel it's necessary. His father was a martyr to his silly and immature mother (his mother would explode and his father just tiptoed around her). Maybe he thinks marriage is just being a martyr. He also said that because of the affair, he knows that he can't ever hurt me again. So I'm trying to figure out if he is saying that he wants out of our marriage. But it just seems like he has a really poor reason. Wouldn't you try counseling first when you have two spouses who get along well, have good sex, communicate, laugh, spend time together, date, with wonderful kids? I mean, I have plenty of self-esteem, but my heart is hurting over this. 

So I don't know what I'm seeking here, just outside opinions I guess. He was supposed to ask his therapist about couples therapy this week. (I suspect he's not too keen on couples therapy because he wants to hide in his martyrdom and not face his stuff and have a list of stuff to try.) 

And yes, I'm sure that he's not having an affair, with that woman or anyone else. But maybe he wishes he was. If he was still the guy from 10 years ago, maybe he would be.

I mean, the ironic thing is that I'm much more trapped than he is, right? I couldn't really support myself if I had to, though I'm sure that a divorce settlement and an eventual inheritance would cover me. As my energy has waned, my world has become smaller. But I've always been a pretty content person who practices gratitude, so I'm doing my best. Actually this year I've decided to quit a bunch of things I volunteered for, because while it kept my connected to the outside world and feeling like a "grown up," it took way from my ability to prioritize my health and my family. So maybe there is a call there for me to focus more on my marriage too. 

It sort of feels like maybe my husband hurts me greatly once a decade or so, and then while I'm lying there pitiful with a broken heart, he snaps out of his funk and feels like he can love me again. Which is a horribly dysfunctional cycle and totally unfair to me. But also, I'm married to a human being, and human beings can be messy and confused and confusing. At least for me, there's still a lot of good there, including love. If he were clear on being done with our marriage, of course I would let him (and myself) go. The confusion and vagueness is really difficult. As I reminded him, I am not a mind reader.

After a few clarifying conversations, he conceded that he was too vague, and that he should try to ask for actionable items that will help him, and he promised that we would figure things out and get through it. I'm glad for that, of course, but I felt like I had to spoon-feed him what to say.

Am I just too nice to break up with? But why would he need to break up with me? Get some more therapy, and plan more movie nights instead of swimming in the river. Are we going to get divorced and tell the kids, "Well Daddy didn't like that Mommy couldn't be more active"?  (This is why he feels trapped, right? Because he knows he would be the a-hole.)

Advice and support appreciated. I don't really like being someone's mid-life crisis.
 

[heartwhole2]

I thought of an anecdote that might shed more light on his thoughts.

He met the OW through some foreign friends. They did not encourage it in any way; in fact, they were mortified and they cut off the OW after DDay. But during the affair, my husband tried to plan a trip to visit the OW under the pretense of seeing these friends, but it fell through.

During his airing of grievances, he said that these friends had invited him to go somewhere (totally different than the country where they/the OW live), but he didn't even tell me because he knew that it would be too triggering, and he just felt like he'd always live with the shame of the affair and we'd never be past it. And I was like, well that was a lot of assumptions all wrapped up together! Why not ask me how I feel about the affair now? I feel a lot lighter, and like it's mostly in the past. If you say another woman's name in your sleep, yes I'm going to need to check in for reassurance and connection. But I am also not freaking out, which seems like evidence of a lot of healing, no? 

So he's going on the trip. But without this big dumping event, I guess he wouldn't even have told me. He'd just have martyred himself. And I really don't understand why. 

[BaileyB]

Hi heartwhole, I don’t have any advice for you… I just wanted to offer words of support and a virtual hug. You are one of the kindest, more sincere, encouraging and well-balanced posters on this site… I’m very sad to read that you are going through a hard time in your marriage. Your plan to consult a marriage counsellor is very wise as it would seem that you are not on the same page right now - hopefully the counsellor will help you both to clarify and communicate what you want for the future if your marriage.
 

I would hope that your husband realizes what he has in his marriage and his family, but as we all know from reading this board… he is his own person and he will make his own decisions. Whatever the future brings, you will be ok… but I’m hoping that you can find a good counsellor who can help the two of you work through this and grow even stronger together. 

Edited July 19 by BaileyB

[heartwhole2]

Thank you BaileyB, for the kind words.

From an outside perspective, it's interesting to think about how two people can experience the same marriage so differently. Of course I have minor annoyances with my husband, but I'm generally able to laugh those away and focus on the good. If something really bothers me, then I say my piece. It seems like our biggest issue is that my husband is pretty much the opposite . . . very conflict avoidant. I just thought he had done enough work on himself that he would say his piece, too. But I don't think he spends as much time in introspection as I do. You have to be talking to yourself before you can figure out what you need to say to someone else. I'm not a mind reader . . . I had no idea that he resigned himself to not seeing his friends because after 10 years, it might be too much of a trigger to see the same people he met the OW through. Like even if we had had that conversation and I had said it was a small trigger or something, how could my calm reflection on the facts be so awful that he has to avoid it at all costs? (Obviously, the answer is that it's a him issue. But his failure to share makes it a marriage issue.)

I do know that I will be OK no matter what. You can't control other people, just yourself. I'm of half a mind that this has acted like a valve releasing pressure for him, and I suppose that's good, except I would like to nix this pattern and just communicate our stuff the first time. Because having him clumsily say all these things that sounded pretty dire for our marriage was very hurtful. And I'm still not entirely sure if he was trying to signal the beginning of the end, and then he walked it back because of his conflict avoidance. They both fit the facts but they mean very different things for me/us.

[BaileyB]

32 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

I just thought he had done enough work on himself that he would say his piece, too. But I don't think he spends as much time in introspection as I do.

With respect, emotional intelligence is a definite strength for you. I doubt very much that he could be as self aware and communicative as you. If you are expecting that he will deal with something the same way that you would, you are likely to be disappointed. 
 

Quote

It’s interesting to think about how two people can experience the same marriage so differently. 

I find it so interesting that two people can live the same event and experience or perceive it very differently. I’ve had that experience with my husband - he will make a comment and I will think “THAT, is what you took from what I said/something that happened.” It reminds me that we are indeed two people, with two different frames of reference, different thoughts and feelings, different skills/coping strategies… communication is key but he obviously doesn’t have the same skills of communication/self reflection that you do. 

Edited July 20 by BaileyB

[Gaeta]

16 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

He also said that because of the affair, he knows that he can't ever hurt me again

I'm very sorry you're going through this.

This little bit here l quoted says a lot to me. I beleive him when he says he doesn't want to hurt you again but it also tells me that's what keeps him in the marriage. I think if you told him you want a divorce and you'll be fine, he would not insist much on saving the marriage.

I remember at the end of my marriage if someone suggested l leave him my reply was "l will never leave him that would destroy him". Now l know my reply was the reply of someone with a foot out the door. Loyalty is an honorable quality but it's not enough to glue back together a marriage.

Of course going back to a counselor is the route to take but he needs to be brutaly honest with himself....and you. 

Edited July 20 by Gaeta

[ExpatInItaly]

I think he loves and cares about you, but his heart is not in this marriage anymore. 

 

[mark clemson]

Hi, HW2.  Some thoughts -

This "martyrdom" of his is voluntary and as you seem aware may be something he is unconsciously comfortable with. It's also benefiting you. Would you really prefer he be more "self-realized" and you be divorced?

Your marriage has lasted a long time and been through some things that not every marriage survives. Part of that is no doubt giving each other "broad leeway" (within reason) to each live as you each see fit. It's pretty clear he has learned how to be fulfilled to what he considers to be a reasonable extent with you. He might actually find a woman who matches his energy level less palatable - he has less time to do his own thing/make his own decisions.  AND he's a lot less certain she'll be there when it's time to head back home. He might be aware of this at some level.

If you feel certain he isn't straying then perhaps look into what exactly it is that he's unhappy with. Emotional attention? Doing things together? Try to get him to pin it down and maybe it can be addressed. The couple's therapy is probably a good idea as he might feel it's difficult to talk about and be worried about upsetting you.

If he's the type who is very responsive to social attention/social reinforcement, it may be that he has hopes/expectations of receiving that kind of stimulus/"high" from you as well. But that' not going to happen as the dopamine gets stimulated by "newness" (in part) and you are a "known stimulus" to his brain. What you can be is loving and attentive and that might go a long way. I think many if not most folks recognize (particularly as full adults) that there's a gap between having "all we might hope for" and having what we are realistically likely in actuality to get.

Edited July 20 by mark clemson

[Els]

IMO the two of you definitely need MC. There's too much communication that's not happening or going amiss, and obviously it's going to tear both of you apart if he has such serious grievances and is unwilling or unable to talk about them with you.

Re: you being unable to participate in his active activities... I think he realizes that he's being unfair to you and shouldn't hold it against you, because the reason why you're unable to participate is because you suffered adverse health effects from carrying his child. If you hadn't made that sacrifice, he wouldn't have his child, and he probably knows this. On the other hand, it's normal and human to not feel connected if you're not doing anything fun with your spouse for a long time. Frankly I think he needs to just be realistic here and compromise by doing less physical activities together, so that you can at least spend time together. Him spending evenings apart from you is a CHOICE that he is making, to the detriment of your marriage.

Maybe try to look for interesting un-physical things to do together that aren't just watching TV? You could play games (board games, card games, tabletop games, console games... the sky's the limit), or do arts and crafts, or pick up musical instruments, whatever works for you.

Edited July 20 by Els

[heartwhole2]

We were apart for a week and a half while I took the kids to my family beach house and he went on his trip with friends. He joined us for the last few days.

There's something that encapsulates our dynamic to me. A few weeks ago, before this whole thing, we were on a date and a song by one of my favorite bands came on. We've seen them a couple of times and I listen to them all the time. My husband mansplained the band to me . . . "Oh, you know who this is? Remember, we saw them? Remember the singer is the one who blah blah blah." And I realized my husband has no idea what I listen to, because he's not interested. So while we were apart, I sent him some of my favorite songs, and he could barely give it a "like" or whatnot.

Today we drove home from the beach and we listened to my playlist. The kids were singing along because they know all the songs. My husband kept being like, "Oh, who is this?", multiple times to songs I had just sent him last week. And I just got fed up. I thought back to when we met 25 years ago, and my husband made fun of my music tastes. He's always acted like music is some art form that only he can appreciate. And folks, some of that music is just whiny and bad. Why have I spent 25 years believing I don't have great taste in music? Why am I always doing 85% of the work to bridge the gap between us? Why do I know all his favorite bands, but he doesn't know any of mine? 

And right on cue, he's sensed my displeasure and has been very attentive, asking what I'm thinking about constantly, initiating hugs, being complimentary, etc. I mean, I could have told you that a 180 would make him respond like this, but I don't want to have to act detached to make my husband want to attach to me. Of course he has many good qualities; I wouldn't be with him if he didn't. But he's also really bad at showing interest in other people unless he feels like it. 

I've been trying to figure out why he would tell me that he struggles in our marriage without any further ask. I point blank said, are you telling me this because you want me to initiate a divorce? No, no, he insists that's not it. It puzzled me enough that I posted here. Now I'm wondering if he subconsciously did it to make me mad, so that we could act out a distancer/pursuer dynamic. Blergh. 

Do I just go with the flow of this? For one, I have plenty to be mad about, and I probably am too slow to anger. And if a little pursuit reinvigorates him/his feelings, maybe I just shouldn't overanalyze it. I certainly enjoy being pursued more than being tolerated.

[basil67]

17 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

A few weeks ago, before this whole thing, we were on a date and a song by one of my favorite bands came on. We've seen them a couple of times and I listen to them all the time. My husband mansplained the band to me . . . "Oh, you know who this is? Remember, we saw them? Remember the singer is the one who blah blah blah." And I realized my husband has no idea what I listen to, because he's not interested. So while we were apart, I sent him some of my favorite songs, and he could barely give it a "like" or whatnot.

Today we drove home from the beach and we listened to my playlist. The kids were singing along because they know all the songs. My husband kept being like, "Oh, who is this?", multiple times to songs I had just sent him last week. And I just got fed up

That isn't "mansplaining", it's him having a fun memory from the past and wanting to relive it with you.   

Why would you send him some of your favourite songs and expect him to know the artist later?   Heck, I can't even remember the names of a lot of the artists who make my favourite music.   Further, if you put your favourite music on in the car more often, he would have known what you listen to. 

You're making mountains out of molehills.  What's really going on?  

[heartwhole2]

Fair assumption, but you'll just have to trust me that he said it in a "You may have forgotten who this band is" way rather than a "Hey, wasn't that a fun memory" way. 

But yes, your general thesis that I should assert myself more is correct.

My husband has wondered if he could have memory issues after I point out that I've already told him something, which happens quite often. But honestly, I think he's just not listening. I think he's distracted by his phone or thinking about other things. He doesn't seem to have any issues with remembering work stuff or social life stuff or kid stuff. I think he's just checked out when it comes to me. And since I don't work and have a chronic illness, there's really not that much to remember. But I'll keep an eye out just in case. 

[basil67]

5 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

My husband has wondered if he could have memory issues after I point out that I've already told him something, which happens quite often. But honestly, I think he's just not listening

Sweetie, this is MARRIAGE!   Distractions happen.  Forgetting things happens.  Selective hearing happens.   We need to be kind and patient with each other when these blips occur

That said, if his memory is causing him issues, he should get it looked at...starting with whether this goes back to him being forgetful/distracted at school or if it's a new thing.  And does it happen in situations where you're not involved.

 

[BaileyB]

12 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

My husband mansplained the band to me . . . "Oh, you know who this is? Remember, we saw them? Remember the singer is the one who blah blah blah." And I realized my husband has no idea what I listen to, because he's not interested.

My partner does this… it’s a bit of a game that he likes to play. He will pick an obscure band and ask if I know them - he will say “I will give you a kiss if you can tell me the name…” that’s fun, it’s fine. I would even say, he is sometimes just in his own head analyzing something… he likes to talk out loud. That’s harmless, if not annoying sometimes.  Every now and again, he will mansplain something to me and that makes me angry - it’s very condescending. I think he does it on purpose, he thinks it’s funny and he wants to tease me… it’s not appreciated. There is a definite difference, I can definitely feel the difference. 

He can absolutely tell you who my favorite artists are and name my favorite songs. 

That said, I will often remind him of different things - do you remember this date, so you remember when we first did this… he truly doesn’t. That’s not meant to be demeaning or unkind. I’m truly wanting to reminisce with him. That said, he doesn’t assign the same meaning to dates as I do - he doesn’t always care to reminisce with me. But if that’s what he was doing, I wouldn’t be upset. 

Only you know the context of the interaction. Is he just that obtuse and indifferent (ie. not listening), or are there some narcissistic tendencies here… I’m thinking about another poster’s husband who cheated - he could talk the talk, he knew what to say when he needed to say it to give the appearance that he cared but… as she learned over time, there was another very narcissistic side of the man that became more and more obvious as the truth was slowly revealed to her…

I feel like you are observing some of these interactions and seeing them in a different way… assigning a new meaning to them. You want to be sure that you are not assigning an incorrect meaning to an innocent comment - as you are now on edge and clearly questioning everything again. 

Do you have the opportunity to go for individual counselling? It may be worth  finding a counsellor for yourself, if possible. Best wishes. 

Edited August 6 by BaileyB

[Gaeta]

Are you really making a big deal over music? Again, when we sweat the small stuff it's because we're not addressing the big stuff in our life. You are too full of resentment to let go of the small stuff. I agree you need individual counseling. It's going to help you jump over this obstacle or it's going to help you leave this marriage. I have a feeling the status Quo makes everybody's life miserable. 

 

 

[BaileyB]

Is the fact that he doesn’t attend to her preference of music indicative of the fact that he is not invested and/or so self absorbed that he could leave or betray the marriage again? That is the worry here, is it not? You are trying to assess whether this example is reflective of his character or commitment to the marriage? 

Maybe it is, or maybe it isn’t. 

Edited August 6 by BaileyB

[heartwhole2]

Yes Bailey, you've summed it up well. Thank you.

He is a generally self-absorbed person. I didn't see that until the affair. The MC said it explicitly. Before my illness, I was so self-sufficient and low maintenance that I simply didn't notice; I did not marry a person who is thoughtful about caretaking. I know he has worked on it, and he's much better when he chooses to be. But still, I am surprised when he is attentive, which shows me that it's still not the norm. It's not just with me . . . if his mom calls to complain about something, he'll abruptly say, "Well, I'll let you go," and hang up without really offering much sympathy or support. Often, he'll ask how I'm feeling, I'll say I'm not feeling well, and he won't respond at all (despite asking the question). It's the same with the stuff I have to repeat for him . . . he'll ask what I"m doing the next day, I'll tell him, and he won't respond at all; he'll just change the subject. Then the next day he'll be surprised by my plans. Why did he ask at all?

We're all the main characters in our stories. I think in his story, he's a very devoted and put-upon family man. And he is an attentive father (on his terms). He does have to do more because of my illness, like picking up dinner or taking the kids to school. But what he's never done is switch his mindset to accommodate my health issues. I can't stand for long periods of time, though paradoxically I can walk about as much as the average person. So I cannot go to a concert where we have to stand, but I can go to one where we sit. We went to one concert where seats were available in the back. My brother sat with me while my husband stood in the front for the better acoustics; giving up the prime acoustic spot is not an option. And he calculates future concerts as being too much hassle to worry about me not feeling well or needing to leave early; he doesn't see the point or joy in doing things together regardless.

I recently took my Girl Scout troop to a big city, and I discovered how much faster my family walks than normal people. My daughter and I were about twice as fast as everyone else. But when we're out with my husband, I have to repeatedly ask him to slow down and let me set the pace. He's got this nervous energy and he feels put out if he has to slow down or alter anything. It's like he's sticking it to the man by refusing to change at all.

So I'm still my generally content and flexible self. I just go with the flow. But now I find out that all the times he planned something knowing I couldn't do it, he was holding it against me? When we could have just brainstormed ways for me to come along if he were willing to make minor variations to the plan? We had this talk about how he's terrified of being empty nesters because we won't be able to hike together. Reader, we never once hiked together, even in our 20s when I was a runner. Did he pick up running to be closer to me? No, he got into cycling. I came to all of his races. We would go to museums and concerts, things that I can still do with some modifications. So his complaints just feel like he's moved the goalposts just to find fault with me. I said, well I can't hike, but I could come with you when you go fishing. No, no, no, fishing is his alone time; he was horrified by the suggestion.

I do want to go to counseling, but I also don't want to drag us there. He has to want things to improve. This is why I think there's an element of victimhood here . . . he'd rather be the heroic martyr that he is in his mind, than the self-absorbed conflict avoider that he would be revealed as in therapy.

So the band thing is just emblematic of the issue. Shouldn't he know who my favorite bands are? And clearly he knows that he's messed up, since his default is to think he's the one being wronged. So if he's tiptoeing around trying to placate me, it's because he knows that he's finally gone too far. 

On DDay 9 years ago, his complaints were that I didn't ask about his day enough and I didn't walk around town with him anymore. So I think he asks me questions because he likes to be asked questions. But he's only asking to check a box, not to learn about me. And honestly I can't believe that he's still resenting me for being unable to walk around/hike. He might as well complain that a blind person can't look at paintings with him. His resistance and disbelief made it so much harder for me to accept that I'm ill and not just lazy (my condition is similar to long COVID, though it predates COVID). 

So I guess I'm just getting to anger stage, where I'm like, "Wait, YOU are disappointed with ME? You want to tell our kids we had to get a divorce because Mama couldn't go on hikes, something we literally never did together once in our lives? You feel disconnected and can't see the link between how little you water the grass and how little it's grown?" 

The one thing I'll say is that I am not fearful of him betraying me or leaving. I think this whole thing is that he feels those aren't options because they would hurt me again. He kept repeating that he had already hurt me and couldn't do it again. But he feels unhappy and trapped, and rather than finding actionable items he's just wallowing. And that's no fun for me, and unfair as well. I did tell him that he always has an out, that I don't want to be married to someone who feels stuck with me. He circled back and mentioned it later, how much he appreciated it. So maybe I'm wrong. But it's a reality that we could all be left at any time; we can't control other people or protect ourselves from getting our hearts broken. I do know that. 

Honestly I hadn't thought of counseling for myself. Whenever I've done it (for the loss of a parent, after the affair, and for a phobia I developed), the therapist was pretty quick to "graduate" me. I think I present as too in tune with myself, so I'm just narrating all the things the therapist could have told me. I probably haven't found my right person yet. 

[BaileyB]

What is it about your husband that you love? Do you have fun together? How does he show you that he cares? 
 

5 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

I did not marry a person who is thoughtful about caretaking. I know he has worked on it, and he's much better when he chooses to be. But still, I am surprised when he is attentive, which shows me that it's still not the norm.

It doesn’t sound like that is who he is… to be honest, I’m not usually one to say this, but it sounds like he has some narcissistic personality traits. It sounds like you are expecting empathy and consideration from a man for whom those things do not come naturally - I have to wonder if after the affair, he worked hard to keep his marriage/family intact but one can not continue if that’s not truly who they are…
 

5 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

The one thing I'll say is that I am not fearful of him betraying me or leaving. I think this whole thing is that he feels those aren't options because they would hurt me again. He kept repeating that he had already hurt me and couldn't do it again.

This may be how he feels and what he is telling himself but I personally don’t think it’s sustainable… it’s like he is not dealing with his feelings and not willing to have the hard conversation (with himself, as much as with you). He may well be getting a payoff - as the person who is sacrificing to be the noble family man… but, if he is truly unhappy, I don’t know that he can push those feelings down indefinitely. 

[heartwhole2]

Yes, clearly he is fairly self-absorbed. I don't think he's a textbook narcissist or anything. I think he has genuine compassion for others, but just a smaller capacity for it. Like his Grinch heart could grow a few sizes and he'd be grand.

Tonight he started crying while telling me about how our child said my advocacy work inspired her to care about justice and equality. He was genuinely overcome and singing my praises as a human and mother. Of course, words and tears are easy. Sacrificing things for someone else is hard. But my point is that it's not like he just sits around talking about himself 24/7. He draws people in with his warmth and, yes, charm. He's very intelligent, with many interests and many friends. He's very good at nurturing and maintaining his male friendships. And he's a great Girl Dad who is very involved in their lives (though like with our marriage, he's more into activities that he enjoys). He doesn't complain when I get behind on housework or can't cook dinner, so even though he's not intuitive or proactive when it comes to caretaking, he does live without clean laundry or hot dinner without complaint.  And just practically speaking, he makes a boatload of money, and the sex is good, ha. So I don't think he's just a total a-hole, but he is very privileged, and used to people catering to him. 

I do think the work he's done on his empathy is genuine, but I'm just very good at focusing on the good and ignoring what is still lacking. I will hear him change the subject or forget what I just said a hundred times and I always always give grace. It takes a lot for me to ascribe it to a pattern. But obviously on some level I am conscious of it, or else I wouldn't be like, "Um bud, I overlook all this other stuff, so don't put your midlife ennui on me . . ."

I think our union made sense before I was sick. I wasn't looking for a caretaker. He was looking for someone low maintenance. I had my own career and friends and activities, and we enjoyed doing things both separately and together.

I also feel like we've kind of glossed over the incident that led to all of this. In the last few years my husband seems to have developed sexsomnia . . . occasionally he will initiate in his sleep. I thought he was just waiting for me to come to bed and then initiating, until one day he said, "Oh, it was so nice to wake up to you attacking me last night," and I was like, "Um, YOU attacked ME. I don't really have a thing for unconscious people . . ."  So anyway, it was one of those episodes where he was deeply asleep but he turned into an octopus, and he said this other woman's name and said, "I want you so much." I had already pegged her as someone he would be attracted to, as she's has a lot of the same qualities I have, but she is very healthy and they exercise together (in a big group). I think I deserve a Wife of the Century award for not freaking out about this after his prior infidelity, but I know that you can't control your subconscious, and everyone is going to feel attraction from time to time. I even kindly mentioned to him that if I experience such feelings, I just appreciate having a little extra sexual energy in my life and go about my day. But I did want to have a conversation where we covered our bases and I made sure I knew if there was anything else to it. 

And he was deeply embarrassed and mortified, and admitted that he has enjoyed getting to know this woman but doesn't think she feels any sort of way about him, and I felt fine with that. I know her -- I actually befriended her husband first through a mutual activity -- and she's very churchy and while she may be attracted to him I doubt she'd act on it, and vice versa (there would be professional repercussions for him too, so practically speaking, lots of reasons to avoid crossing any lines). But this is when the conversations veers away from reassuring me and into the part where he laments our marriage, despite never bringing me anything that he wants changed. If I have a thing to say, I say it. I don't carry stuff. And I don't think I am particularly scary or critical, so I just don't understand why he won't just say his stuff. If he's felt "disconnected" for years, he had a duty to share that with me. Does he honestly think he can just fix that himself by halfheartedly asking me questions? I did notice a year ago or so that he got a Gottman marriage book on our Kindle account, and I said, oh, I've read that same book, and asked if he wanted to read it together. And he just said . . . no, not really, but he liked the quizzes. 

I had hoped that he had learned to communicate more than this. In that way it is like the affair . . . that he just bottled everything up and then when he was like, "Well everything is terrible anyway" he decided to dump his complaints on me. And I honestly do not understand how those complaints can add up to things being horrible, except that I guess it's death by a thousand cuts. I guess he does have the sense not to say "I'm just not that into you" so he tries to come up with an example, like the hiking. So then I come back to the martyr complex because he's not taking action to change things either way. I don't even understand the concept of not being into someone that you get along well with, have great sex with, and love raising your kids with. You are not going to feel infatuated constantly for decades and decades; that's not what marriage is. And it's not hiking either.

So anyway, I'm still mad. And I'm kind of waiting for him to make a move. I'll go to counseling. I'll work on whatever he wants. But I am not a mind reader and I am not the one in a dark place and I don't want have to drag some martyr to marriage counseling with me. And I suspect that me being fed up and less accommodating will, sadly, make me more interesting and desirable and he'll forget his boredom for a while. But I'm mad, and I'm tired of me analyzing everything he does and him forgetting everything I do, and so I'm going to sit in that for a little while. And if he wants out, that's fine too, but he'll have to gain the capacity to deal with his shame and conflict avoidance first. I can't, and won't, do it for him.

[heartwhole2]

Update:

Well about a week and a half ago I initiated a conversation; I can't even remember what it was about. In response, my husband dropped the bomb that he wanted to separate. He didn't have any idea what that meant . . . no, no, not move out. I asked if he wanted to move into the guest room, and he said maybe. Finally we stopped talking and he went out to work on a rental property and I called my sister heartbroken. That night he slept in the guest room.

For about 48 hours I was in a state of horrible anxiety and shock. I told him that I really didn't think it was right to separate without trying counseling. He said something like, he just didn't want to keep pretending or give me false hope or something. I said, so we just tell our kids that we didn't even try counseling because it was so terrible that Mama couldn't go hiking anymore? And he said he would handle it by telling them that we had grown apart. So obviously this was a man who had one foot out the door. At the time I gave myself a 40% odds of staying married and 60% of getting divorced. 

My sister came down to console me and I got an emergency appointment with the counselor I'd seen for a prior phobia. She encouraged me to tell my husband I was willing to work very hard on our marriage (I mean, obviously right? When have I ever indicated I wasn't?). I leaned into my compassion and recognized that he must really be feeling very anxious or depressed or trapped if he is willing to separate not just from me but our girls and our dog and possibly his beloved vacation property. That is obviously a cry for help.

Somewhere on day 2 or 3 I convinced him that trying is the right thing to do. Our girls are preteen/young teen and it's just a dynamic and trying time in general. And I circle back to . . . how hard could it be for two people who like and love each other and have good sex to give it a go? He only spent that one night in the guest room and he's back in our bedroom. He has seemed more receptive and open as the days go by. I now feel like we have a 70-80% chance of staying together. It doesn't feel like he is holding back like he was right after he dropped the bomb.

It was already my goal to cut out unnecessary stress and focus on my family this school year. I quit a bunch of positions and my goals were a cleaner house, cooking more, and just being there for them. In my chronic illness journey, it took a long time for me to accept my limitations, especially with such an active and busy spouse. I think I overcorrected in that regard, and was stuck in inertia. 

We've been pretty inseparable, doing the things we used to do . . . sitting on the porch, watching cycling, rubbing each other's feet. To be fair, we still did these things of late, but if I was already resting in the tv room, I wouldn't follow him to the porch. Sometimes I would be fatigued and it was easier to eat on the couch, since the girls didn't want to stop what they were doing either. I've made an effort to make it to the table every night, to cook his favorite food, to offer to run errands for him, etc. He had said our marriage was a source of stress instead of comfort, and I don't want that for him of course. 

He's supposed to contact a couples counselor recommended by his therapist. On one hand, I worry that if he follows through (following through is generally not something he does until the nth ask) this means he's serious about separating, because it might be starting a clock. But ultimately I know that it's important that we learn to communicate better. 

I have some friends from an infidelity forum who all feel I should put on my b*tch boots and castrate him. But then my counselor and my sister are advising patience, listening, making an effort, etc. My sister is very angry at him, but she forgave him for the affair and she knows she could do it again. And she finds his dissatisfaction with our marriage puzzling, when hers is practically sexless. We've even had sex since the "talk." 

So I'm writing this update with a little bit less shock and confusion that I had a week and a half ago, though those are two apt terms to describe where we are. I still have whiplash from his ability to go from "Oh, I should mention I'm struggling with our marriage" to "let's separate" in a short span. I know I wrote here about how I didn't think he had the initiative to do something like that; clearly I was wrong. What he seems to lack is the ability to work on the stuff in the middle. As I told him, I know he's been working on our marriage on his side, but without my awareness; he might as well be trying to work on his marriage with a blow-up doll. A relationship is give and take between two people, and we can do a lot more to improve things when we're communicating and on the same page. Time will tell if he is able and willing to do that. I do think he sees and appreciates my efforts, and that he accepts them in the good faith they are meant. But I'm going by my intuition and understanding of him, which obviously has been wrong in the recent past.

[heartwhole2]

Just wanted to add an example from today. He forgot something at home and I offered to bring it to his office. In the past, he always would have said no, and made an extra trip himself. (I would have just assumed this was more convenient for him). But today he said yes, and invited me to have lunch at a nice restaurant next to his office. I also got to meet a new coworker, and he said something like, "You two finally get to meet!" Those didn't seem like the actions of someone trying to get away from me. I mean, he's spending all his time at home with me too, lol. 

So I don't feel my optimism is foolish, though I know there are no guarantees in life. I'm only half the equation and I can't control the outcome; I can only do my best.

We have a child in a new school this year, and she has to get dropped off before he's usually done having coffee with his workout friends. He's offered several times to alternate and I have said that I'm happy for him to do it if he wants to have that bonding time with her, but I like having things to do every day and I'm the one who doesn't work, so I will do every day unless there's some special reason I can't. And he said thank you. I think in the past he would have done it in a martyr-way, and I would have assumed he was just being honest with me and himself about what he wanted. I'm very much a person who says my piece, and I assume that others will do the same without needing their motives evaluated. I'm realizing that it's helpful for me to be more insistent and proactive when it comes to taking things off his plate.

Edited August 21 by heartwhole2

[mark clemson]

I'm glad you think the odds are good now. Possibly this was the cathartic moment he needed to experience to realize that he doesn't actually want to separate.

I think some people have a much easier time leaving a relationship than others. Possibly for him (and for you) the ending things "in theory" is much easier than facing the reality of actually doing it. Some folks might see that as dysfunctional - while there's a certain logic to that PoV, it's ALSO true that if you are both ultimately more content together, then perhaps it's better (or at least, NOT a bad option) when you stay.

[S2B]

On 8/5/2024 at 5:06 PM, heartwhole2 said:

We were apart for a week and a half while I took the kids to my family beach house and he went on his trip with friends. He joined us for the last few days.

There's something that encapsulates our dynamic to me. A few weeks ago, before this whole thing, we were on a date and a song by one of my favorite bands came on. We've seen them a couple of times and I listen to them all the time. My husband mansplained the band to me . . . "Oh, you know who this is? Remember, we saw them? Remember the singer is the one who blah blah blah." And I realized my husband has no idea what I listen to, because he's not interested. So while we were apart, I sent him some of my favorite songs, and he could barely give it a "like" or whatnot.

Today we drove home from the beach and we listened to my playlist. The kids were singing along because they know all the songs. My husband kept being like, "Oh, who is this?", multiple times to songs I had just sent him last week. And I just got fed up. I thought back to when we met 25 years ago, and my husband made fun of my music tastes. He's always acted like music is some art form that only he can appreciate. And folks, some of that music is just whiny and bad. Why have I spent 25 years believing I don't have great taste in music? Why am I always doing 85% of the work to bridge the gap between us? Why do I know all his favorite bands, but he doesn't know any of mine? 

And right on cue, he's sensed my displeasure and has been very attentive, asking what I'm thinking about constantly, initiating hugs, being complimentary, etc. I mean, I could have told you that a 180 would make him respond like this, but I don't want to have to act detached to make my husband want to attach to me. Of course he has many good qualities; I wouldn't be with him if he didn't. But he's also really bad at showing interest in other people unless he feels like it. 

I've been trying to figure out why he would tell me that he struggles in our marriage without any further ask. I point blank said, are you telling me this because you want me to initiate a divorce? No, no, he insists that's not it. It puzzled me enough that I posted here. Now I'm wondering if he subconsciously did it to make me mad, so that we could act out a distancer/pursuer dynamic. Blergh. 

Do I just go with the flow of this? For one, I have plenty to be mad about, and I probably am too slow to anger. And if a little pursuit reinvigorates him/his feelings, maybe I just shouldn't overanalyze it. I certainly enjoy being pursued more than being tolerated.

This seems backwards. You shouldn’t have to anger him to get attention from him!

he acts lukewarm, at best.

personally - I’d have him change counselors! Like now! If his response is his best input after 10 years of counseling - he’s not learning what he’s paying for! 

you seem to give him the benefit of the doubt too easily. He also doesn’t validate your feelings and then discounts them. That’s terribly disrespectful.

you just may be emotionally mismatched. You excel and he lags behind.

if you divorced - would he feel like he loses a LOT?

[Gebidozo]

6 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

He said something like, he just didn't want to keep pretending or give me false hope or something. I said, so we just tell our kids that we didn't even try counseling because it was so terrible that Mama couldn't go hiking anymore? And he said he would handle it by telling them that we had grown apart.

If my SO told me something like this, it would mean 100% that the relationship has ended.

People do a lot of stuff out of habit and inertia. He is obviously full of doubts and trying to fix things because he thinks that’s the decent thing to do. Meanwhile, you’re hesitating between “castrating” him and being magnanimous, which is obviously extremely hard and often impossible after he’s been unfaithful. 

I don’t want to be the pessimistic a**h*** who tries to undermine your hope, but I feel that you’re being too optimistic about this. You aren’t really bracing yourself for a negative outcome. You might get hurt again. You were shocked and anxious for those 48 hours when he suggested separation, but I absolutely saw that coming from your earlier posts in this thread.

 

[BaileyB]

I’m very sorry, but it feels very much like you are desperately trying to convince your husband to stay in the marriage when he is trying to tell you as kindly as he possibly can that he wants something else for himself…

I hope I’m wrong and you get the result that you want when you attend counselling, I just don’t think this is about the fact that you can’t go hiking and I don’t think it’s going to be solved by more home cooked dinners. I respect your desire to make every effort to fix what’s wrong in your marriage but this seems to be a him problem… I would be careful not to sacrifice too much of who you are and what you do in an attempt to appease a man who has one foot out the door…

Edited August 22 by BaileyB