Excellent Book Recommendation about 2nd Chances

[J dub]

 

Anyway, I do appreciate your time and thoughts, but not so much cookie cutter advice. That's why I appreciate J Dub' especially vivid story.

 

Thanks.

Please dont misinterpret that to translate into me saying youre going to turn psycho or anything I definitely didnt mean that. And let me just say that I do very much think highly of the aforementioned fella, unfortunately he ruined pretty much any chance of THAT working out. I just want to highlight the fact that even tho he THOUGHT he had nothing to lose by continuing to pester me, he definitely did. I had every intention of making things work someday...but he just...ugh.

 

Take care

[Extra Truth]

Oops, I edited a much shorter of my last post then got involved in a phone conversation and my longer and more meandering post went up instead. Sorry!

[Aureus]

Dear J Dub and Cali Guy

 

First, J Dub--I finally get it from your story. I'll keep that in mind along with the fulfilled second chance case histories and that should keep me in NC until hopefully those fateful conversations begin with my ex, provided I haven't screwed up too much already, where we become either friends, something else....or daresay, lovers again.

 

I like very much what you said about fate, which for me might mean hope if she somehow finds it in herself to be in love with me again. I think it speaks to the fact that again, reconcilations do happen and there are many cases of it in this world, even on this board. I guess most of those were fated, but it seems the common ingredient was not to kill any feeling the dumper might through the dumpee becoming a nuisance. I guess that is the nut. I don't agree however about all the facts. Facts appear to be the truth from only a certain point of view at a certain time. I certainly have more facts than anyone else here and still don't understand everything. I came to this board for insight on the common ingredients that can provide for reconcilation. After many postings, J Dub has provided a nut, and you too CaliGuy in your own way.

 

My questions arise from this: the plane has crashed, some are going to roll over and die and find their loves in heaven, and some are going to live on. I'm going to live on here and now, but how am I going to survive and get back to my wife and kids.

 

I do see what you mean, both of you, about being unattractive right now. I know I'm not ready to talk to her let alone reunite if she wanted as I have a lot of work to do. In fact, I'm fearful of running into her on the subway since we have ride at about the same time beginning soon. I have been very good about NC over the last 3 weeks, and admittedly was clingy at first when the shock set in that we had really broken up--sorry if I gave the impression I was harassing her. Well, I guess I did for a week or so prior to the holiday party season and I regret that greatly. My hope is that I haven't messed it up for good by my phone calls over those first couple of weeks--I don't know how I can know for sure other than her picking up the phone.

 

I don't know what to do about pining. I feel pushed into the arms of another woman, by my exes behavior and others. I am realistic enough about human sexuality to know I might sleep soon with another woman (and this would be hard since I am in love with my ex), as she already has (it has kept me up nights already), and I know deep down I have absolutely no control, so please don't think I'm not aware. I simply thought a helping hand in the communication process might be taken well by a strong, intelligent, sensitive woman which I know her to be. For all I know, she is waiting for me to make the first move, since she always did in reconcilating before. I don't think it is sad necessarily that people pine--some hearts can love only once or have such conviction they settle (for example, some spouses choose not to remarry after the death of spouse since they are certain they had their love--who are any of use to pity or judge them?).

 

On letting go, I wish I knew how in a way where I didn't give up my hope. To me letting go of hope will be saying, so long friend, you are dead to me, and I believe too much in our compatability (admittedly viewed from my side alone right now), to let go just yet. First the 6 months to a year, some conversations, and then the final decision. It may seem strange, but that is my fear--that if I let go, I will have allowed the only remaining ember of our love to die. So many great loves in history where kept alive because a single person believed.

 

Like I said, I like risking big, but the emotional balance I have to establish to live this bet still eludes me and causes me great daily pain. Maybe I don't know what letting go means. I have heard phrases such as 'letting go with love'. I don't think being open to meeting women, or finding someone else, is the key to killing this love.

 

Anyway, I do appreciate your time and thoughts, but not so much cookie cutter advice. That's why I appreciate J Dub' especially vivid story.

 

Thanks.

 

 

I agree with you about not giving up (in a sense) when you feel you have found the one. When everything feels right and cannot be any other way. Whether that is delusion or destiny. And that part about the great loves in history being fought for, that struck a cord with me. What I fear most of all however is regret. That if I move on without even trying one day when I'm old, with whoever I may end up with, I will look back and wonder what would have happened if I would have tried. And yes, J Dub is a wise girl.

[AltplanB]

So we ended our little 4 day adventure together of me helping her get out of vegas and back home and then she holding me at her place for a couple days while i waited for my parents not to wonder why i got home early (home for the holidays). Over the period i got the impression that she sees me as just a little bit more than a friend. She asked for a massage, of which i gave her a very sensual one. We had a lot of fun goin to the library and taking down christmas stuff and washing her dog. It was all good and nothing bad. I kept my cool. I even got to hold her one night while we slept. From the time i ran into her in vegas, till the time we parted, she went from kissing me all over and saying sweet things in my ear to being really affectionate but not to close to just giving me hugs and stuff at the end. We never talked about us or the possibility of us cause i didn't want to come off as needy or as pushy. As she dropped me off, i started telling her that i didn't think it was a good idea for us to hang out. I just didn't want to be her friend, not like her previous exs. I also said that i knew she was confused about what she wanted and that i was cool with that, because i knew she would work it out sometime. I left her with the message that if she wanted to hang out, she could call me and we would do something like go for a hike. I kinda left it with the little "you know what i feel" impression but with nothing pushy. Anyways, i don't know what she will do as she has broken up with the dude she rebounded with. I guess the best thing now is to just give her space. She keeps looking for others but some of the things she said in vegas makes me think she is stuck on me. I dunno the patience is something i thought i was good at.

[CaliGuy]

I agree with you about not giving up (in a sense) when you feel you have found the one. When everything feels right and cannot be any other way. Whether that is delusion or destiny. And that part about the great loves in history being fought for, that struck a cord with me. What I fear most of all however is regret. That if I move on without even trying one day when I'm old, with whoever I may end up with, I will look back and wonder what would have happened if I would have tried. And yes, J Dub is a wise girl.

 

Fighting for love is nothing but Hollywood glamorizing. If you have to work, to fight for love, it was truly not meant to be. We as people want what we want and too often we ingore our brains screaming at us when our heart is making mistake after mistake.

 

If it makes you feel better to try, then do so. That said, trying too hard is often a reason for failure. Take it from someone who knows personally the trials and tribulations of someone who doesn't have to wonder what would happen. Bad things, trust me.

[CaliGuy]

So we ended our little 4 day adventure together of me helping her get out of vegas and back home and then she holding me at her place for a couple days while i waited for my parents not to wonder why i got home early (home for the holidays). Over the period i got the impression that she sees me as just a little bit more than a friend. She asked for a massage, of which i gave her a very sensual one. We had a lot of fun goin to the library and taking down christmas stuff and washing her dog. It was all good and nothing bad. I kept my cool. I even got to hold her one night while we slept. From the time i ran into her in vegas, till the time we parted, she went from kissing me all over and saying sweet things in my ear to being really affectionate but not to close to just giving me hugs and stuff at the end. We never talked about us or the possibility of us cause i didn't want to come off as needy or as pushy. As she dropped me off, i started telling her that i didn't think it was a good idea for us to hang out. I just didn't want to be her friend, not like her previous exs. I also said that i knew she was confused about what she wanted and that i was cool with that, because i knew she would work it out sometime. I left her with the message that if she wanted to hang out, she could call me and we would do something like go for a hike. I kinda left it with the little "you know what i feel" impression but with nothing pushy. Anyways, i don't know what she will do as she has broken up with the dude she rebounded with. I guess the best thing now is to just give her space. She keeps looking for others but some of the things she said in vegas makes me think she is stuck on me. I dunno the patience is something i thought i was good at.

 

Alt, you are torturing yourself.

 

She's not in the right frame of mind to have a successful relationship and each time to you come to her "rescue" you only do a disservice to yourself. You're enabling her. She has no reason to improve herself when she knows there will always be someone there for her, you or some other guy.

 

I'm a Christian and I believe in helping others, but only to a certain degree. Her behavior and actions show me that she has deep, troubling issues and there's no way she is going to have a successful relationship in her current state of mind.

 

And as long as you enable her she has no reason to change. For you, the longer you hang on to her the longer it will take you to heal up and be a stronger man.

[J dub]

CG, its pretty clear to all of us whats goin on here with AltPlanB, however he is taking any and all crumbs the girl throws and acting like its a godsend. If he only knew what he is doing to the situation to make it even harder on himself...you are exactly right, the more he helps her the more she is going to see no reason to change the situation, because he's at her service REGARDLESS of what she does! Just think, she can run off and get with some other dude, get drunk in vegas and..tada! There's the ex boyfriend there for her every step of the way.

 

She clearly has no respect for him already and hes digging the hole even deeper by, as you suggested, being the enabler (which is 100% accurate).

 

Like hitting your head on a wall...

[CaliGuy]

CG, its pretty clear to all of us whats goin on here with AltPlanB, however he is taking any and all crumbs the girl throws and acting like its a godsend. If he only knew what he is doing to the situation to make it even harder on himself...you are exactly right, the more he helps her the more she is going to see no reason to change the situation, because he's at her service REGARDLESS of what she does! Just think, she can run off and get with some other dude, get drunk in vegas and..tada! There's the ex boyfriend there for her every step of the way.

 

She clearly has no respect for him already and hes digging the hole even deeper by, as you suggested, being the enabler (which is 100% accurate).

 

Like hitting your head on a wall...

 

Frustrating, isn't it, to know you're giving someone sound advice yet instead of listening to their brain they let their heart take over and destroy and second chance they might have had.

 

Ah well, all we can do is lead the horse to water. They either drink or die of thirst. In Alt's case, he's killing himself and doesn't realize it.

 

Hopefully one morning he wakes up and says "I'm tired of this, I respect myself enough to know what I am doing is not good for me. I want better and it starts with letting her go."

[Moai]

I hav eread most of the "Love Tactics" book, and lots of it works--or at least, the stuff I was able to try. I pulled back, I got the "are you mad at me?" thing, started hanging out with other women, etc., and then she freaked out.

 

I haven't called her in a month. She called and hung up when I answered twice, the first week. Now nothing.

 

I am tempted to break the NC thing to talk to her as the book suggests, like to just "check in" and be all positive or whatever, but fear has me in its grip. I could call her at work when i know she'll have to anser, but I don't want to ambush her. So I thought I'd leave a voice mail saying, "hi", but that sounds lame. And I am not sure I want to talk to her at all. I am at the point where it has been so long that talking to her would be weird.

 

I suppose it's one of those things where I need to figure out what I want. Maybe I want her because she was a challenge, etc. So many parallels with the gist of this thread so far. However, she has NEVER done the kind of stuff I am reading here. Man, oh man. If it were me I'd run like the wind in the opposite direction.

 

Remember, Caliguy, actions speak louder than words.

[CaliGuy]

I hav eread most of the "Love Tactics" book, and lots of it works--or at least, the stuff I was able to try. I pulled back, I got the "are you mad at me?" thing, started hanging out with other women, etc., and then she freaked out.

 

Thes are 'tactics' not based on love, but manipulation. They might work in the sense of creating some basic interest again but usually are doomed to failure because you really haven't changed who you are. She'll see through that and you'll be dumped again.

 

Love is built on respect, brick by brick. You can't get that by manipulative tactics.

 

I haven't called her in a month. She called and hung up when I answered twice, the first week. Now nothing.

 

Until she calls and says "I love you, I made a mistake and want to try again" then don't answer her calls or emails. This isn't manipulation, this is taking care of yourself and protecting yourself from harm. During this time you should be focused on improving yourself where you can, going out with friends, spending time with hobbies, working out, etc.

 

I am tempted to break the NC thing to talk to her as the book suggests, like to just "check in" and be all positive or whatever, but fear has me in its grip. I could call her at work when i know she'll have to anser, but I don't want to ambush her. So I thought I'd leave a voice mail saying, "hi", but that sounds lame. And I am not sure I want to talk to her at all. I am at the point where it has been so long that talking to her would be weird.

 

Good, leave it at that. It's not in your hands, it's in hers. She has to change too and her feelings have to change. Any attempt you make to reconcile before she is ready will be met with complete resistance.

 

I suppose it's one of those things where I need to figure out what I want. Maybe I want her because she was a challenge, etc. So many parallels with the gist of this thread so far. However, she has NEVER done the kind of stuff I am reading here. Man, oh man. If it were me I'd run like the wind in the opposite direction.

 

That's your brain speaking, not your heart. Listen and listen well, it's not lying to you.

 

Remember, Caliguy, actions speak louder than words.

 

Absolutely. You say so much more by being completely silent than you ever could with a million words.

[Sleeps w/Butterflies]

Absolutely. You say so much more by being completely silent than you ever could with a million words.

 

 

Cali Guy you are so right on point. SILENCE IS GOLDEN. (This I have learned.)

 

 

 

 

Moai you are doing the right thing just stay strong. I have a feeling she will come around (more than just calling and hanging up)the NC thing makes them wonder. You also raised a valid point sometimes people want their exes back for the challenge however once that is gone will you be happy? Another thing is once you have made changes in your life to become a stronger and better person it does not necessarily mean that your ex will have changed. Annoying behaviors and attitudes from their end will again surface however the dumpee will have to decide if they can contend with it.

[Moai]

Thes are 'tactics' not based on love, but manipulation. They might work in the sense of creating some basic interest again but usually are doomed to failure because you really haven't changed who you are. She'll see through that and you'll be dumped again.

It wasn't that I was dumped, we weren't dating. But I would have with her, and she sent mixed signals constantly, so I just pulled back. I was still her friend, we talked less frequently than before, and then she got jealous and freaked out. Bascially we had a fight and haven't talked since.

 

Love is built on respect, brick by brick. You can't get that by manipulative tactics.

That's true, but I don't see the "tactics" as manipulative. When I follow the "tactics" naturally, which I do when I am not that interested in a woman, they fawn all over me. It's weird. And I had a very deep friendship with this woman, albeit somewhat one-sided, so I decided to pay more attention to her actions than what she said, and she got jealous and freaked out.

 

Until she calls and says "I love you, I made a mistake and want to try again" then don't answer her calls or emails. This isn't manipulation, this is taking care of yourself and protecting yourself from harm. During this time you should be focused on improving yourself where you can, going out with friends, spending time with hobbies, working out, etc.

The drag is she doesn't have a computer, so I'll never get an email. In many ways that's good, though, as it makes NC easier. And I have always gone out with friends, and I have been gettting healthier (30 lbs lost as of yesterday!), which is part of wanting to talk to her. I want her to see how awesome I am looking!

 

I have usually been the one to "fix" things in the past, and I am tired of it so I just didn't call. We aren't talking because we are both being stubborn, now that I think about it.

 

Good, leave it at that. It's not in your hands, it's in hers. She has to change too and her feelings have to change. Any attempt you make to reconcile before she is ready will be met with complete resistance.

In a way it is in my hands, because I did something that made her mad (in her eyes) so I owe her an apology. Or so I am guessing. BUt we didn't have a "breakup" in the traditional sense. I was the "unboyfriend-boyfriend".

 

That's your brain speaking, not your heart. Listen and listen well, it's not lying to you.

Yeah, I am just at that point where I remember all the good things about the relationship and not the terrible stuff. I'm not going to call her (my sister and my friend "C" would KILL me), but I want to, that's all. Kinda makes me sad. And, to be honest, I want to know how badly she misses me. I think that's petty, so it gives me another reason not to call. I don't want to be petty. I also don't want to rehash everything (which always happens) I just want to say hi and see what's new in her life. Mostly.

 

Absolutely. You say so much more by being completely silent than you ever could with a million words.

Yep. It's funny, but I have had serious relationships end that were easier to deal with than this.

[Extra Truth]

CaliGuy

 

On what authority do you have that love is not worth fighting for that we can trust you on this subject as dogma? The risk to try is a personal choice. The faith to believe is too. Seems to me there are those who are believers and those who are quitters (or realists, if you prefer). The believers seem to be much happier in life. It is important to know when those beliefs have some justification in reality, but even so, if people want to believe in God or other abstract entities, then let them.

 

Personally, I take comfort in the great loves in history, and that of successful histories of couples who did fight and succeed. I yet to here even once any acknowledgment from you of these stories--other than its 5% and so that's not worth fighting for. Man, I would hate to crash in a plane in the mountains with someone, and have my life depend on cooperating with them and the two of us believing (I don't mean any offense, but the attitude has been so often demonstrated in survival situations to be the key ingredient between those who live and die), and have them believe since it's only 5% it's just better to die since the next life will just great. F#c! That! I'm dyng on my feet, but that's just me.

 

As an aside sort of, even Hollywood movies have some basis in truth, and in our hopes of what we could achieve if we had courage. Unfortunately, I sincerely believe most people quit too easily and furthermore, seem to think all loves are interchangeable. They are not.

 

I think love takes work to tame the beast within each of us and that's where the personality clashes happen until each is TAMED. If you haven't already, I highly suggest reading The Little Prince. For me, it changed my whole view of love. Frankly, if I am wrong in the way I view love, then I don't want to be right. It would be too depressing.

 

I am hurting right now, but I've found a solution that works for me in letting go for now, that balancing my emotions with getting on with the work that needs to be done--I need to do it for myself anyway, but I intend to be a 'rock star' when we meet again and blow her away (it'll be worth it regardless). The formula is faith based on what I believe about her compatibility and love. Granted, only I believe right now, and that is a MAJOR problem since we're not communicating and she is dating--that is why I have to hold back my dial finger nightly.

 

I'm told by a Buddhist friend of mine, that faith is the art of falling, of unattachment, an embrace of ambiguity and the chance in life/or destiny if you prefer. But if you inform it with a knowledge of what you believe, then in my view the odds do improve, and certainly the ability to manage emotions. Again, it's a different world view.

 

I would prefer to live without regrets. In my case, I am still wrestling with how to restart that communication. I would still welcome any ideas on that.

 

I believe CaliGuy you will say you are wasting your time with advice I won't listen to. It may be good advice for some people. I just choose not to buy into it. I'm not breaking NC, but I am comfortable in the risks I'm taking which I think all of must be who chose to love one person above all else, until the time comes to decide for oneself when to finally let go.

[CaliGuy]

CaliGuy

On what authority do you have that love is not worth fighting for that we can trust you on this subject as dogma?

 

It's my personal opinion, as are all replies here. Nothing is 100% factual in every case.

 

The risk to try is a personal choice. The faith to believe is too. Seems to me there are those who are believers and those who are quitters (or realists, if you prefer). The believers seem to be much happier in life. It is important to know when those beliefs have some justification in reality, but even so, if people want to believe in God or other abstract entities, then let them.

 

I'm not saying what you have to do, I am merely voicing an opinion. It's your choice to take it or not. However, like many other people who come to LS, you have it set in your mind what you're going to do, ask for advice, don't hear what you want and do it anyway.

 

I gain nothing personally from offering my persective. No kudos, I don't get paid and surely if I have helped, then all I guess I receive is a little personal satisfaction knowing I helped someone, even if it's only one person.

 

Personally, I take comfort in the great loves in history, and that of successful histories of couples who did fight and succeed. I yet to here even once any acknowledgment from you of these stories--other than its 5% and so that's not worth fighting for. Man, I would hate to crash in a plane in the mountains with someone, and have my life depend on cooperating with them and the two of us believing (I don't mean any offense, but the attitude has been so often demonstrated in survival situations to be the key ingredient between those who live and die), and have them believe since it's only 5% it's just better to die since the next life will just great. F#c! That! I'm dyng on my feet, but that's just me.

 

Not a good analogy as the fight for survival is different than fighting for someone who isn't interested on being with you. Two totally different situations that bear little in resemblence.

 

As an aside sort of, even Hollywood movies have some basis in truth, and in our hopes of what we could achieve if we had courage. Unfortunately, I sincerely believe most people quit too easily and furthermore, seem to think all loves are interchangeable. They are not.

 

If you've spent any time on these forums you'd know the opposite to be true. Many of us here have continued to try in spite of insurmountable odds. Sure, some people are scored, bitter and what have you. But all they are offering is opinions. Seems to me you're having a hard time differntiating with someone's opinion. It's probably why you have a hard time taking advice. If people don't see things your way they are wrong, right?

 

I don't believe I've said you're wrong, I've merely voiced an opinion. What you choose to do is your choice and your choice alone. Realize that many of us have been through these experiences so it's not as if our opinions are factless or baseless.

 

I think love takes work to tame the beast within each of us and that's where the personality clashes happen until each is TAMED. If you haven't already, I highly suggest reading The Little Prince. For me, it changed my whole view of love. Frankly, if I am wrong in the way I view love, then I don't want to be right. It would be too depressing.

 

Suit yourself

 

I am hurting right now, but I've found a solution that works for me in letting go for now, that balancing my emotions with getting on with the work that needs to be done--I need to do it for myself anyway, but I intend to be a 'rock star' when we meet again and blow her away (it'll be worth it regardless). The formula is faith based on what I believe about her compatibility and love. Granted, only I believe right now, and that is a MAJOR problem since we're not communicating and she is dating--that is why I have to hold back my dial finger nightly.

 

Sounds like you seek her approval, that your changing yourself for her. In addition she's dating someone else. She's not communicating by choice, sending you a clear message. I understand you don't want to accept that, so do what you must. I can assure you if you attempt any contact with her you'll create resentment. I've been there myself on both sides.

 

I'm told by a Buddhist friend of mine, that faith is the art of falling, of unattachment, an embrace of ambiguity and the chance in life/or destiny if you prefer. But if you inform it with a knowledge of what you believe, then in my view the odds do improve, and certainly the ability to manage emotions. Again, it's a different world view.

 

If you believe you are in control of your destiny, of all things that happen to you, so be it. Perhaps had you handled the relationship differently you'd not be in the position you are now. Unfortunately you are and how you handle yourself from here on out, if you want another chance, will be decided not based on what you do to 'fix' the situation, but what you do to improve yourself. You have no control over her feelings. Period.

 

I would prefer to live without regrets. In my case, I am still wrestling with how to restart that communication. I would still welcome any ideas on that.

 

Silence says more than you could ever say or write to her. Think about it.

 

I believe CaliGuy you will say you are wasting your time with advice I won't listen to. It may be good advice for some people. I just choose not to buy into it.

 

That is absolutely your choice. I question why you ask for advice and then criticize when you don't hear what you want to. Again, it's your choice to do what you want, but don't berate people for giving you advice. When you came here, that is what you were seeking.

 

I'm not breaking NC, but I am comfortable in the risks I'm taking which I think all of must be who chose to love one person above all else, until the time comes to decide for oneself when to finally let go.

 

That is absolutely your choice. Just know that there are many of us who have been in your shoes, who refused to let go and ended up delaying the healing process and in that time we ruined whatever shot we had at a second chance.

 

I've a book for you. Love Must Be Tough, Dr. James Dobson. The principals of that book explain why people pull away from you and what you can do to win them back, if anything. And you know what, the simple reply is "pull back too."

 

Any effort you make to re-establish contact will most likely end up with disappointing results. Do what you must, because I agree you need to have your own sense of when to let go. I'm just trying to help you avoid sticking a fork in whatever second chance you might have.

[livinlifetofullest]

I agree with you about not giving up (in a sense) when you feel you have found the one. When everything feels right and cannot be any other way. Whether that is delusion or destiny. And that part about the great loves in history being fought for, that struck a cord with me. What I fear most of all however is regret. That if I move on without even trying one day when I'm old, with whoever I may end up with, I will look back and wonder what would have happened if I would have tried. And yes, J Dub is a wise girl.

 

It's always good to have tried and lost, but that have never tried at all. Aureus, I'm glad you've already found the One, and you fear that you'll regret not trying to get her back. But please remember, it's all about timing.

 

Guys who just broke up with their girls and want them back try too hard to get them back. If a girl tells you to back off, listen to JDub and back off. It's irritating to have guys continue to pursue or find excuses to be with you, when you've been quite clear that you want nothing to do with them. Trust me, women can be quite intuitive and can see through guys' excuses. The more you try at this point, the more irritated the woman we'll be. As I've said before, "pursue a shadow and it will flee. Flee a shadow and it will pursue."

 

I'm not telling you to give up. But give it some time for old mistakes to be forgotten and your feelings to calm down. Wipe off the slate so to speak. This can be done by backing off completely for the time being. Afterwards, when you've improved yourself already, you can start making a comeback. But by that time, hopefully, you're not wearing your heart on your sleeve or acting like a wuss --- which is such a turnoff for women. Instead, treat her like any other girl you meet. I'm sure she'll be surprised and wonder why you're not that into her anymore and increase the likelihood of sparking her interest back again. Remember, people want what they cannot have.

[Extra Truth]

Hi CaliGuy

 

Thanks for that. I apologize if I came off as personally attacking or anything else. As you know, emotional balance right now is a really tricky issue.

 

I guess I came here for hope, and yes, I hate hearing hopeless, hopeless, hopeless from all corners, even the Jesuits whose business is to hope (hipocrites (sic)) when there is evidence to the contrary. I have a few friends hoping with me, but otherwise, negative across the board, not because of how I mismanaged this relationship (and that is the real issue here, that I mismanaged), but because of a generalized hopelessness. If only we could talk again...but now back to work on myself...

 

In any case, I'll check out that book. I hope you won't mind my asking for a quick list from you of the big no-nos that would put a fork in it. I am really concerned about the fork issue. I don't know if I've committed any coupes des graces, but I want to steer far away if there is even a gray area there.

 

I'm leaning on friends to slap my hands when the urge strikes to call.

 

I wonder if it's okay to call a mutual friend, more hers than mine, and ask what her mindset is these days about ever talking again--I really believe she is keeping her distance becuase my ex called our mutual friends, more mine than hers, only to be told by my friends to stay away from me (I really am angry at them for that, because she was keeping the lines open).

 

She's not seeing anyone serious, but is sleeping with someone on occassion, so I hear from friends who rebroadcast her saying so on Christmas Eve. Maybe it was the alcohol that night, I don't know, but it's so out of character, and it makes me anxious to question what that was about so I can know if I've misjudged who I'm dealing with after all these years. It's certainly possible since she misjudged me.

 

In any case, I recognize these are opionions, and really, I apologize for being so...you know the word I'm looking for. Some messages are only heard when presented a certain way like J Dubs vivid story yesterday about the guy that blew it. For some reason that struck a chord. So would I be out of line speaking to anyone around her to learn whether she took my friends seriously. If she is of the mindset to never speak again, then I'm pretty much toast and that will nullify her first offer of communication in a few months time. thanks, J in LA

[livinlifetofullest]

Ultimately, it's all about building one's respect for oneself. Wearing your heart on your sleeve or catering to your women's needs at your expense, or waiting for them to call you is NOT respecting yourself. Please remember that there's that guy your ex-girlfriend fell in love with inside you, and it's not the clingy, emotionally needy men that I see in the forums right now.

 

Be tough, and if someone give you advice, please take heed. These people are with you, not against you. Follow it or not is not your decision, but please respect other people's opinions.

[livinlifetofullest]

ET, my suggestion, don't fish for information from her friends. You're hurting yourself more. The fact that you're fishing for her information will only get back to her and just increase her already-huge ego. Your friends are just protecting you; don't be angry at them.

 

Sleeping with someone on occasion <-- you guys broke up. She can do whatever she wants, and SO YOU CAN YOU. She's moving on, why aren't you? Anyway, if you still think she's worth it, do remember that this is no longer the girl you once knew and shared intimacies with. After the breakup, you'll see more of a different person than the person you once dated. Think about it... knowing what you know now, do u still want her?

[Extra Truth]

ET, my suggestion, don't fish for information from her friends. You're hurting yourself more. The fact that you're fishing for her information will only get back to her and just increase her already-huge ego. Your friends are just protecting you; don't be angry at them.

 

Sleeping with someone on occasion <-- you guys broke up. She can do whatever she wants, and SO YOU CAN YOU. She's moving on, why aren't you? Anyway, if you still think she's worth it, do remember that this is no longer the girl you once knew and shared intimacies with. After the breakup, you'll see more of a different person than the person you once dated. Think about it... knowing what you know now, do u still want her?

 

 

Then who is she? The woman I fell in love with was intelligent, mature, strong, principled, classy, warm, and real. That woman is worth it. That is the woman I am having trouble letting go. If she is really gone (devolved, and I worry about that), then I guess it would be easier, but I have no way of knowing without talking to her. I really don't understand the thinking or emotions behind female breakup styles.

 

Yes, she is moving on, but I'm not because that woman I knew I'm still in love with and being in another woman's arms is not a cure for love. Is it a phase she is going through? I wonder under what conditions a woman looks back fondly and reconsiders going back. Is it possible that she has changed so much to devolve? That is the reason I want to contact her. I can appreciate any future relationship wouldn't be anything similar to what we had, but is that core person really gone? The fishing get back to her is what I was worried about--would it be seen as violating boundaries or just curious. My friends, I think, had to right to interfere and tell her anything. I know they were protecting me, but I think they messed things up--it seems to me the whole communication thing should have been something strictly between us without any outside interference.

[Extra Truth]

Ultimately, it's all about building one's respect for oneself. Wearing your heart on your sleeve or catering to your women's needs at your expense, or waiting for them to call you is NOT respecting yourself. Please remember that there's that guy your ex-girlfriend fell in love with inside you, and it's not the clingy, emotionally needy men that I see in the forums right now.

 

Be tough, and if someone give you advice, please take heed. These people are with you, not against you. Follow it or not is not your decision, but please respect other people's opinions.

 

Going back to knowing what I do now, do I want her---yes, if that great woman I knew is still there somewhere, like that great guy inside me that I'm reclaiming. I know sex while apart can be an issue for couples that come back together, but sex is just sex (that's the only I could deal with it anyway).

 

I can see how wearing the heart is unattractive, but I don't think I'm catering to anyone's requests, but instead my needs. I know I need to manage relationships better, and myself. That's or me, and is all she ever wanted. She just wanted a healthy man, and she is a catch, so she'll probably find one pretty quickly. She is complicated though too, so maybe it'll be awhile. She's been single only a few months at a time since a teenager though. Maybe this time will be different.

 

I think maybe your questioning my motivation for these changes and thinking I'm disrespecting myself. This breakup has forced a lot of soulsearching and changes. I know that waiting by the phone is not healthy, so I'm trying to motivate to work on myself, but with the hope I'll wow her next time. Maybe I won't wow her. Will that be disappointing, sure, but I'll be ready. I really don't know of any other way to handle this. I am not that tough, because I am heartbroken. If you have constructive advice on how to be tough and hopeful, then I would love to hear that. I think I apologized about my little rant, but sorry again.

[CaliGuy]

Changing for your own sake is good. It's outstanding to reflect on one's self and see where you can make improvements. Respecting yourself, building your self-esteem and confidence back are essential for you and for whomever you are with in the future. Maybe it's her or maybe not but in your current state you're not attractive to her, nor anyone else. Once you decide that you want your respect and dignity back you'll lose the urge to call her or check up on her and you'll really start being attractive to someone else. Maybe she sees that and becomes interested again, who knows?

 

What I do know is any attempts to contact her or re-establish contact or a realation on your end will ultimately end up in failure. Her heart has to change and in time maybe yours will too.

 

I know that if you stick to NC and work on resolving your own issues, maybe one day she wonders and contacts you. If you've improved, she'll see that. If you're the same guy, that's the fork that will make her say "I'm done."

 

J Dubs advice is great. She might have given the guy a second chance but her attraction to him was lost when he gave up his respect and dignity.

 

I know it sucks to come here and not hear hopeful words, but again, their not the hopeful words you want to hear, but there's hope nonetheless. It comes in the sense that your life is not over.

 

Someone here said it best. If you think your life is bad, just go visit a cancer ward or look at people in wheelchairs or someone who just lost a relative. Their lives are irrevokeably changed. Yours ins't. This is just a bump in the road that you'll get over.

 

There will be another girl. There always is. There's literally millions of them. Work on yourself, build yourself back up and others will find you attractive. Know that not every woman is right for you. I know that right now my ex is not right for me, she may never be. I've accepted that. I've let go. I don't wonder about her anymore. I don't call, email, text or otherwise try to reach her.

 

The old, clingy me would have. But I respect myself enough to say "She doesn't want me? So be it, someone better will come along."

 

It just takes a little time.

 

Best of luck.

[livinlifetofullest]

The point is, she's moved on. She's slept with another man. Doesn't matter if she's intelligent, mature, strong, principled or whatever... fact is, she broke up and she's been with someone already. And here you are, still pining for her. If she only knew what you're going through right now, it wouldn't be attraction. It would instead, be pity. It's not a phase. Fact is, she's lost interest. And that's because you allowed her to lose interest. She knows she has you. You're not a challenge anymore, no mystery... just a guy, an ex who is busy thinking of ways of getting her back, instead of living his life to the fullest.

 

What are the conditions for a woman to go back? Well, top of my head, the guy must be emotionally strong and have a spine. We don't want guys who are constantly pining over us, bending over their backs trying to please us. We want mystery, we want to be kept guessing. You're not giving her any of these by wearing your heart on your sleeve. Where's that guy she once fell in love with? I'm sure you have loads of positive attributes. But once you get clingy, emotional and needy as you are right now, it's very unattractive.

 

Contacting her right now would be futile. It would create resentment because you're still clinging on to her, even after you broke up. She doesn't want that, and not any woman in these forums. As JDub has explained in her example, it's very irritating and unattractive.

 

But as I've said, it's up to you. Contact her all you want... but I don't think that's the right move given your state. I'd suggest you calm yourself down, work yourself better, start respecting yourself and just ignore her for the moment. Then, after you've gained your confidence and respect back, then contact her. I'll assure you you'll be more attractive in her eyes, than if you did at your present state.

[livinlifetofullest]

Oh, and this "Lost Guide to No Contact" may be of a lot of help for you:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t70200/

[Extra Truth]

Thanks CaliGuy---I appreciate all the advice. It still hurts me the constant use 'of another' woman' or being attractive 'for someone else'. Wish I were stronger now, but I'm not.

 

Livinglifetothefullest, so I should understand that sex between by a woman after a breakup means something even when she broadcasts that it doesn't? She's 30 and we had talked about doing some pretty experimental sex--so it's not that we're prudes. I've heard all sorts of reasons for this behavior, and she told me herself that it didn't mean anything.

[livinlifetofullest]

If she was still hoping to get back to you, she wouldn't have sex with other men. Right now, do you want to have sex with other women? No, because in the back of your mind, you're afraid it will destroy your chances of getting back with her.

 

There's three sides of the truth: Yours, hers and the truth. She can sugarcoat it all she wants, but I'd bet she's not thinking of you when she's having sex with that other guy.